The Culture of Poverty, the Culture of Cruelty: How America Fights the Poor and Not Poverty

[AthenaAwakened]

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

When you give someone twenty dollars in a card, it’s not your twenty dollars any more.
When you pay the dentist for a root canal, it’s not your money anymore.
And when you pay your taxes in order for the govt to provide services to the citizenry, it’s not your money any more but the public’s money. And the poor are part of that public and they using their rights as citizens to buy Doritos.

And please understand, I would love it if every child all over world ate nothing but good healthy food and never got sick. I look in grocery carts all the time and think, oh my god! Are these people trying to get their kids on one of those god awful shows on TLC about the obese kids?

But I know that I don’t have the right to demand these people feed their children the way I want. and that’s regardless of whether they pay for that cart of food with EBT, Visa, MasterCard, or American express.

 

[Axulus]

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

When you give someone twenty dollars in a card, it’s not your twenty dollars any more.
When you pay the dentist for a root canal, it’s not your money anymore.
And when you pay your taxes in order for the govt to provide services to the citizenry, it’s not your money any more but the public’s money. And the poor are part of that public and they using their rights as citizens to buy Doritos.

And please understand, I would love it if every child all over world ate nothing but good healthy food and never got sick. I look in grocery carts all the time and think, oh my god! Are these people trying to get their kids on one of those god awful shows on TLC about the obese kids?

But I know that I don’t have the right to demand these people feed their children the way I want. and that’s regardless of whether they pay for that cart of food with EBT, Visa, MasterCard, or American express.

Do try to follow the conversation. We are talking about whether to _continue_ giving them my (and yours) twenty dollars once it is revealed that they are using the money to buy steak (how my marijuana dealing half brother has used his food stamps, while also using his pot money on strippers in Vegas and Nike shoes and clothes for his 1 year old daughter), or have an ice cream party with friends (true story of a meth addict I know, how he used his food stamps, and selling the rest for $.50 on the dollar to buy cigarettes and a few hits of meth), or to buy $3 kombucha drinks and many organic foods (my sister, how she has used her food stamps) or when they receive money for food but then use the little cash they have to buy new brand name shoes. Please tell me why I and other taxpayers should continue to pay for these things, especially in light of the real suffering going on in the third world and elsewhere? I'm happy to give my sister cash (as I have several times), but I don't expect the rest of you to buy her organic foods and kombucha drinks.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

When you give someone twenty dollars in a card, it’s not your twenty dollars any more.
When you pay the dentist for a root canal, it’s not your money anymore.
And when you pay your taxes in order for the govt to provide services to the citizenry, it’s not your money any more but the public’s money. And the poor are part of that public and they using their rights as citizens to buy Doritos.

And please understand, I would love it if every child all over world ate nothing but good healthy food and never got sick. I look in grocery carts all the time and think, oh my god! Are these people trying to get their kids on one of those god awful shows on TLC about the obese kids?

But I know that I don’t have the right to demand these people feed their children the way I want. and that’s regardless of whether they pay for that cart of food with EBT, Visa, MasterCard, or American express.

Do try to follow the conversation. We are talking about whether to _continue_ giving them my (and yours) twenty dollars once it is revealed that they are using the money to buy steak (how my marijuana dealing half brother has used his food stamps, while also using his pot money on strippers in Vegas and Nike shoes and clothes for his 1 year old daughter), or have an ice cream party with friends (true story of a meth addict I know, how he used his food stamps, and selling the rest for $.50 on the dollar to buy cigarettes and a few hits of meth), or to buy $3 kombucha drinks and many organic foods (my sister, how she has used her food stamps) or when they receive money for food but then use the little cash they have to buy new brand name shoes. Please tell me why I and other taxpayers should continue to pay for these things, especially in light of the real suffering going on in the third world and elsewhere? I'm happy to give my sister cash (as I have several times), but I don't expect the rest of you to buy her organic foods and kombucha drinks.

Oh I follow fine.

Poor people need to do what non poor people tell them to do with their own money and what they need to do is not spend one dime on anything ever not cleared through the prism of non poor people's ideas about the proper behavior of poor people. Poor people are children and second class citizens and proper targets to be belittled and berated.

Oh I follow fine.

What I don't do is feel obligated to tell grown folks what to do with the money they make, or even they receive in assistance. I think that a person SHOULD buy a frivolous thing once in a while, even the poor ones. I think using a nice gift in public should NOT raise the ire of people who don't fucking know you. How is it their business?

 

[Derec]

Yes, that is exactly what I tell them. You got me again. You are just so clever. Can't put anything pass you. No sirree.

You are rolling your eyes, yet that is precisely what your posts in this thread sound like. You get all defensive when anybody questions poor financial decisions by poor people like buying a $1500 sofa/loveseat that they can't afford so they have to enter a disfavorable rent-to-own agreement to get it.

Advice is usually free and even then overpriced. And when unsolicited can be quite costly.

So you eschew giving any advice to people in your "economic self defense" classes that I still have no idea what the fuck that is.

But I will tell you what we do do in those workshops, we listen.
Try it sometimes and you might learn something.

While listening is important it can't be the whole thing. If a family in one of your classes told you that they want to buy some fancy furniture and they want to get it right now and the only way to do it is through a rent-to-own deal would you tell them that it's a really bad idea? Or would you just nod and smile because it's not your place to tell them what to do with their "dime" (or more than 40,000 of them over the lifetime of the deal)?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You are rolling your eyes, yet that is precisely what your posts in this thread sound like. You get all defensive when anybody questions poor financial decisions by poor people like buying a $1500 sofa/loveseat that they can't afford so they have to enter a disfavorable rent-to-own agreement to get it.

They aren't buying a $1500 loveseat. They are paying usurious rates of interest on a loan to buy a $350.00 loveseat. If you took my class you would know that.

Advice is usually free and even then overpriced. And when unsolicited can be quite costly.

So you eschew giving any advice to people in your "economic self defense" classes that I still have no idea what the fuck that is.

They sign up for my advice. They don't sign up for your judgement.

But I will tell you what we do do in those workshops, we listen.
Try it sometimes and you might learn something.

While listening is important it can't be the whole thing. If a family in one of your classes told you that they want to buy some fancy furniture and they want to get it right now and the only way to do it is through a rent-to-own deal would you tell them that it's a really bad idea? Or would you just nod and smile because it's not your place to tell them what to do with their "dime" (or more than 40,000 of them over the lifetime of the deal)?

It's not fancy furniture they want, just to able to offer a guest a place to seat that isn't broken, busted, and blech.

poor folk know what the want and what they need. They want to be able to meet their bills on time, provide better for their kids, and have a little something something in bank.

And yes they sometimes buy shrimp, and a couple of time in the summer, they have cookouts, and every once in a while they take their kids to the movies or the roller rink or the fair. Sometimes they just have to buy their kid that pair of shoes and not the Bolos they've been buying them for years.

What I teach them is that they don't have to listen to every ad, they don't have to take the rate given (most things are negotiable), that the pawn shop and the check cashing place and the pay day loan place are not real banks. I teach them to speak up when they are getting screwed and that they don't have to take abuse from a bill collector. I teach them that just like you don't find pay day lenders in gated communities by the beach, you can organized with your neighbors and get them out of your neighborhoods too. I teach them how to recognize the "poor tax" and how to demand their right not to pay it.

But more importantly, I let them know they are not alone and not every person not in their circumstance is an asshole, a judgmental jerk with so little power is his own life that he has to try to exert some influence over someone else's even if that power is just the ability to criticize and complain.

If the other guys falls down, that doesn't mean you grew taller.

 

[lpetrich]

I find it curious that the right-wingers here aren't celebrating AthenaAwakened and others like her for doing a valuable service. They complain about poor people supposedly making poor decisions, and they refuse to support someone who helps poor people make good decisions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

We see plenty of immigrants come here and make it. It certainly can be done despite having worse handicaps.

Except that they don't make it on their own, contrary to right-wingers' ideology of rugged individualism. They help each other, something that right-wingers consider anathema. It's handouts and right-wingers proudly brag about how they didn't need anyone's help. Consider the attempts to outlaw feeding of homeless people and the right wing's lack of outrage.

The reason for laws against feeding the homeless is that when you feed the homeless you get more homeless in the area. It's bad for the neighborhood.

And the local poor have the help of the welfare system. They're in a better position than the immigrants.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What does any of this have to do with splurging on some luxury when you can't even make rent? I'm not talking about a bag of cookies, get a clue. We were talking about things like new brand name shoes, fancy sofa, etc.

Maybe you should get a clue: people are sometimes given gifts. If you know the right neighborhoods, you can find lots of barely used or brand new 'brand name' stuff just left in the garbage or on the curb or at Goodwill.

What I want to know is who you are to judge what other people can and cannot have? What other people can and cannot afford?

If you are rich enough, you can make all sorts of bad decisions, do lots of terrible things and your money insulates you from the consequences.

If you are poor, you aren't allowed to have anything nice. According to you.

Who put you in charge? Just exactly how bad are people who can barely keep a roof over their head supposed to feel about accepting a nice pair of sneakers for their kid or for themselves?

1) Most of these things aren't gifts.

2) If they are gifts the gift-giver is a moron. They should be giving them something they actually need.


A simple test: Again and again I see people using food stamps to buy overpriced food. That's not gifts, that's not getting it cheap.

- - - Updated - - -

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Once again you show you're part of the problem.

If it's money they earned you're right. When it's aid provided for a specific purpose it's completely reasonable to expect it to be used for the purpose for which it's provided.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I find it curious that the right-wingers here aren't celebrating AthenaAwakened and others like her for doing a valuable service. They complain about poor people supposedly making poor decisions, and they refuse to support someone who helps poor people make good decisions.

A valuable service? I see her attitudes as part of the problem. She's perpetuating the fundamental problem of blaming outside forces and ignoring the bad decisions people make.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Maybe you should get a clue: people are sometimes given gifts. If you know the right neighborhoods, you can find lots of barely used or brand new 'brand name' stuff just left in the garbage or on the curb or at Goodwill.

What I want to know is who you are to judge what other people can and cannot have? What other people can and cannot afford?

If you are rich enough, you can make all sorts of bad decisions, do lots of terrible things and your money insulates you from the consequences.

If you are poor, you aren't allowed to have anything nice. According to you.

Who put you in charge? Just exactly how bad are people who can barely keep a roof over their head supposed to feel about accepting a nice pair of sneakers for their kid or for themselves?

1) Most of these things aren't gifts.

2) If they are gifts the gift-giver is a moron. They should be giving them something they actually need.


A simple test: Again and again I see people using food stamps to buy overpriced food. That's not gifts, that's not getting it cheap.

- - - Updated - - -

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Once again you show you're part of the problem.

Loren what did you just say? oh yeah "Repeating it doesn't make it true"

My God, you're easy.

If it's money they earned you're right. When it's aid provided for a specific purpose it's completely reasonable to expect it to be used for the purpose for which it's provided.

Is there a law against buying a sofa?

And you're expectation and that $2...

 

[Derec]

They aren't buying a $1500 loveseat. They are paying usurious rates of interest on a loan to buy a $350.00 loveseat.

Wrong. The cash/sticker price of the sofa/loveseat combo was $1500. The final price with all the finance changes came to over $4000, i.e. almost three times the cash price.

If you took my class you would know that.

No, if you'd read the WaPo article you'd know that.

It's not fancy furniture they want,

Read the article.

just to able to offer a guest a place to seat that isn't broken, busted, and blech.

I can understand why sitting on a blech would be uncomfortable.

poor folk know what the want and what they need. They want to be able to meet their bills on time, provide better for their kids, and have a little something something in bank.

And for that reason they sign up for unfavorable rent-to-own deals and regularly add other stuff to their rent-to-own bill?

And yes they sometimes buy shrimp, and a couple of time in the summer, they have cookouts, and every once in a while they take their kids to the movies or the roller rink or the fair.

Nobody has complained about stuff like that. So stop with the straw men.

Sometimes they just have to buy their kid that pair of shoes and not the Bolos they've been buying them for years.

"Bolo" has many and diverse meanings - string tie, space tether, meth pipe, fictional sci-fi tank but none of these makes sense as a shoe.
In any case, do you think it would be ok if somebody who is poor bought their kid trendy $100 sneakers just because they really really wanted to have them?

What I teach them is that they don't have to listen to every ad, they don't have to take the rate given (most things are negotiable), that the pawn shop and the check cashing place and the pay day loan place are not real banks. I teach them to speak up when they are getting screwed and that they don't have to take abuse from a bill collector. I teach them that just like you don't find pay day lenders in gated communities by the beach, you can organized with your neighbors and get them out of your neighborhoods too. I teach them how to recognize the "poor tax" and how to demand their right not to pay it.

The reason those businesses are in poorer communities and not in poorer ones is that that's where the customers are. Getting organized to chase a legal business out of a neighborhood is not the solution.

Now go read the WaPo article and tell me what you would tell the Abbotts if they came to your class.

 

[lpetrich]

The reason for laws against feeding the homeless is that when you feed the homeless you get more homeless in the area. It's bad for the neighborhood.

Seems like a convenient pretext for hating private charity. Right-wingers brag about how much they believe in it, but when push comes to shove, the truth is VERY different.

And the local poor have the help of the welfare system. They're in a better position than the immigrants.

How much counterevidence will you need, Loren Pechtel? Yes, counterevidence.

Also, tell that to all the people who complain that immigrants want to live off of welfare. I will count success by their conceding how wrong they were.

I find it curious that the right-wingers here aren't celebrating AthenaAwakened and others like her for doing a valuable service. They complain about poor people supposedly making poor decisions, and they refuse to support someone who helps poor people make good decisions.

A valuable service? I see her attitudes as part of the problem. She's perpetuating the fundamental problem of blaming outside forces and ignoring the bad decisions people make.

Teaching people how to avoid bad decisions != ignoring bad decisions. How many times will I have to repeat that?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Wrong. The cash/sticker price of the sofa/loveseat combo was $1500. The final price with all the finance changes came to over $4000, i.e. almost three times the cash price.

Wrong again. Furniture in those RTO stores is way overpriced on the sticker to begin. And i will stand by that I can find that SAME LOVELEAT for $350.00.

If you took my class you would know that.

No, if you'd read the WaPo article you'd know that.

And if you actually did price comparisons among retail and RTO places, you would know better. But why would you want to know better, when knowing lesser is so much easier?

It's not fancy furniture they want,

Read the article.

All the poor people in America were in this article?

just to able to offer a guest a place to seat that isn't broken, busted, and blech.

I can understand why sitting on a blech would be uncomfortable.

poor folk know what the want and what they need. They want to be able to meet their bills on time, provide better for their kids, and have a little something something in bank.

And for that reason they sign up for unfavorable rent-to-own deals and regularly add other stuff to their rent-to-own bill?

It's not some reason, it's marketing, it's bad credit, it's being treated like shit when you go into a retail store, it's a lot of reasons.

be back in a bit.

And yes they sometimes buy shrimp, and a couple of time in the summer, they have cookouts, and every once in a while they take their kids to the movies or the roller rink or the fair.

Nobody has complained about stuff like that. So stop with the straw men.

Sometimes they just have to buy their kid that pair of shoes and not the Bolos they've been buying them for years.

"Bolo" has many and diverse meanings - string tie, space tether, meth pipe, fictional sci-fi tank but none of these makes sense as a shoe.

Back in the day, in my neighborhood we referred to off brand shoes you would pick up at discount store as BOLOS. My bad. I keep forgetting who I'm talking to and how little you know.

In any case, do you think it would be ok if somebody who is poor bought their kid trendy $100 sneakers just because they really really wanted to have them?

You don't have children do you? So you wouldn't get why a parent would buy a child expensive shoes or even food. Part of being a parent is sometimes doing without something you need in order to get your child something they want. But like I said, you wouldn't get that. If you did, you would not have asked the question.

What I teach them is that they don't have to listen to every ad, they don't have to take the rate given (most things are negotiable), that the pawn shop and the check cashing place and the pay day loan place are not real banks. I teach them to speak up when they are getting screwed and that they don't have to take abuse from a bill collector. I teach them that just like you don't find pay day lenders in gated communities by the beach, you can organized with your neighbors and get them out of your neighborhoods too. I teach them how to recognize the "poor tax" and how to demand their right not to pay it.

The reason those businesses are in poorer communities and not in poorer ones is that that's where the customers are.

And I am telling those marks, I mean, customers that they can do better.

Getting organized to chase a legal business out of a neighborhood is not the solution.

And yet that's what communities around the nation are doing.

http://www.stoppaydayloans.org/ (Virginia)
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/go...cle_fa522e4a-575c-5538-94e8-e732ce0e4458.html

Cities have little recourse in governing how payday lenders conduct business, but many local governments have changed zoning ordinances to limit the areas those operations can locate.

Costly Cash: In Texas, Towns Try Zoning Out Payday Lenders
Iowa cities take on payday lenders with zoning laws

It appears quite a few people think you are wrong. And they are right to think so.

Now go read the WaPo article and tell me what you would tell the Abbotts if they came to your class.

No, you go read

No Slack: The Financial Lives of Low-Income Americans

 

[arkirk]

Wrong again. Furniture in those RTO stores is way overpriced on the sticker to begin. And i will stand by that I can find that SAME LOVELEAT for $350.00.

If you took my class you would know that.

No, if you'd read the WaPo article you'd know that.

And if you actually did price comparisons among retail and RTO places, you would know better. But why would you want to know better, when knowing lesser is so much easier?

It's not fancy furniture they want,

Read the article.

All the poor people in America were in this article?

just to able to offer a guest a place to seat that isn't broken, busted, and blech.

I can understand why sitting on a blech would be uncomfortable.

poor folk know what the want and what they need. They want to be able to meet their bills on time, provide better for their kids, and have a little something something in bank.

And for that reason they sign up for unfavorable rent-to-own deals and regularly add other stuff to their rent-to-own bill?

It's not some reason, it's marketing, it's bad credit, it's being treated like shit when you go into a retail store, it's a lot of reasons.

be back in a bit.

And yes they sometimes buy shrimp, and a couple of time in the summer, they have cookouts, and every once in a while they take their kids to the movies or the roller rink or the fair.

Nobody has complained about stuff like that. So stop with the straw men.

Sometimes they just have to buy their kid that pair of shoes and not the Bolos they've been buying them for years.

"Bolo" has many and diverse meanings - string tie, space tether, meth pipe, fictional sci-fi tank but none of these makes sense as a shoe.

Back in the day, in my neighborhood we referred to off brand shoes you would pick up at discount store as BOLOS. My bad. I keep forgetting who I'm talking to and how little you know.

In any case, do you think it would be ok if somebody who is poor bought their kid trendy $100 sneakers just because they really really wanted to have them?

You don't have children do you? So you wouldn't get why a parent would buy a child expensive shoes or even food. Part of being a parent is sometimes doing without something you need in order to get your child something they want. But like I said, you wouldn't get that. If you did, you would not have asked the question.

What I teach them is that they don't have to listen to every ad, they don't have to take the rate given (most things are negotiable), that the pawn shop and the check cashing place and the pay day loan place are not real banks. I teach them to speak up when they are getting screwed and that they don't have to take abuse from a bill collector. I teach them that just like you don't find pay day lenders in gated communities by the beach, you can organized with your neighbors and get them out of your neighborhoods too. I teach them how to recognize the "poor tax" and how to demand their right not to pay it.

The reason those businesses are in poorer communities and not in poorer ones is that that's where the customers are.

And I am telling those marks, I mean, customers that they can do better.

Getting organized to chase a legal business out of a neighborhood is not the solution.

And yet that's what communities around the nation are doing.

http://www.stoppaydayloans.org/ (Virginia)
http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/go...cle_fa522e4a-575c-5538-94e8-e732ce0e4458.html

Cities have little recourse in governing how payday lenders conduct business, but many local governments have changed zoning ordinances to limit the areas those operations can locate.

Costly Cash: In Texas, Towns Try Zoning Out Payday Lenders
Iowa cities take on payday lenders with zoning laws

It appears quite a few people think you are wrong. And they are right to think so.

Now go read the WaPo article and tell me what you would tell the Abbotts if they came to your class.

No, you go read

No Slack: The Financial Lives of Low-Income Americans

What are you guys arguing about? You both seem to know that this RTO thing is a ripoff. We need usury laws. Why don't we have them? Who erased the ones we already had? How can we get them back? These should be our issue, not how accurately one or another of us capture the insane totals in this mess. What about educational loans for products that do not educate? That is a war on poor people's motivations and hopes for a brighter future. Instead, we decree that these loans cannot be retired in bankruptcy. Perhaps they should be retired in criminal court...and the scoundrels who devised these new 21st century torture devices be put behind bars for fraud.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Repeating it doesn't make it true. Once again you show you're part of the problem.

Loren what did you just say? oh yeah "Repeating it doesn't make it true"

My God, you're easy.

If it's money they earned you're right. When it's aid provided for a specific purpose it's completely reasonable to expect it to be used for the purpose for which it's provided.

Is there a law against buying a sofa?

And you're expectation and that $2...

You continue to say that it's proper for someone to buy luxuries even if that makes them homeless--and then you blame society for making them homeless. You persist in proving that you're part of the problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seems like a convenient pretext for hating private charity. Right-wingers brag about how much they believe in it, but when push comes to shove, the truth is VERY different.

There's no law against homeless shelters feeding the homeless. Work within the system, don't go around causing problems.

Also, tell that to all the people who complain that immigrants want to live off of welfare. I will count success by their conceding how wrong they were.

There are two basic classes of immigrants: The ones that come here to succeed and the ones who come here and have a baby to get on our welfare system. It's the latter group that you're referring to.

A valuable service? I see her attitudes as part of the problem. She's perpetuating the fundamental problem of blaming outside forces and ignoring the bad decisions people make.

Teaching people how to avoid bad decisions != ignoring bad decisions. How many times will I have to repeat that?

But the attitudes she's displaying on here at least support making bad decisions.

For example, her comment of how many times can you say no to the kid--in other words, teach the kid that wants are more important than needs. Teach the kid that asking often enough justifies a bad decision.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you guys arguing about? You both seem to know that this RTO thing is a ripoff. We need usury laws. Why don't we have them? Who erased the ones we already had? How can we get them back? These should be our issue, not how accurately one or another of us capture the insane totals in this mess. What about educational loans for products that do not educate? That is a war on poor people's motivations and hopes for a brighter future. Instead, we decree that these loans cannot be retired in bankruptcy. Perhaps they should be retired in criminal court...and the scoundrels who devised these new 21st century torture devices be put behind bars for fraud.

The reality is that banning outrageous loans doesn't stop people from getting outrageous loans, it just forces them to unsavory sources of those loans.

 

[Axulus]

Do try to follow the conversation. We are talking about whether to _continue_ giving them my (and yours) twenty dollars once it is revealed that they are using the money to buy steak (how my marijuana dealing half brother has used his food stamps, while also using his pot money on strippers in Vegas and Nike shoes and clothes for his 1 year old daughter), or have an ice cream party with friends (true story of a meth addict I know, how he used his food stamps, and selling the rest for $.50 on the dollar to buy cigarettes and a few hits of meth), or to buy $3 kombucha drinks and many organic foods (my sister, how she has used her food stamps) or when they receive money for food but then use the little cash they have to buy new brand name shoes. Please tell me why I and other taxpayers should continue to pay for these things, especially in light of the real suffering going on in the third world and elsewhere? I'm happy to give my sister cash (as I have several times), but I don't expect the rest of you to buy her organic foods and kombucha drinks.

Oh I follow fine.

Poor people need to do what non poor people tell them to do with their own money and what they need to do is not spend one dime on anything ever not cleared through the prism of non poor people's ideas about the proper behavior of poor people. Poor people are children and second class citizens and proper targets to be belittled and berated.

Oh I follow fine.

What I don't do is feel obligated to tell grown folks what to do with the money they make, or even they receive in assistance. I think that a person SHOULD buy a frivolous thing once in a while, even the poor ones. I think using a nice gift in public should NOT raise the ire of people who don't fucking know you. How is it their business?

You don't understand: they don't need my or your assistance if they can afford a fancy pair of name brand shoes or a brand new sofa. I'm not talking about the poor people who are scraping by to pay the rent, utilities, and food bill every month who indulge in a bag of chips or cookies every now and then. For anyone not on public assistance, no problem, they can buy whatever they want. You are the one proposing to treat them like children by giving them our money so they can indulge in frivolous purchases while children are literally dying of diseases and malnutrition in third world countries. Get some perspective.

 

[Axulus]

Poor folk also pay taxes so with their "dime," they get to decide what to but with their money they worked damn hard for.

I have have explained this before in reference to food stamps and food, but i see it bears repeating

When you give someone twenty dollars in a card, it’s not your twenty dollars any more.
When you pay the dentist for a root canal, it’s not your money anymore.
And when you pay your taxes in order for the govt to provide services to the citizenry, it’s not your money any more but the public’s money. And the poor are part of that public and they using their rights as citizens to buy Doritos.

And please understand, I would love it if every child all over world ate nothing but good healthy food and never got sick. I look in grocery carts all the time and think, oh my god! Are these people trying to get their kids on one of those god awful shows on TLC about the obese kids?

But I know that I don’t have the right to demand these people feed their children the way I want. and that’s regardless of whether they pay for that cart of food with EBT, Visa, MasterCard, or American express.

Now if your proposal was to make their taxes go to zero because of their low income, I'd be with you. But you aren't proposing that, are you?

 

[laughing dog]

You don't understand: they don't need my or your assistance if they can afford a fancy pair of name brand shoes or a brand new sofa...

The entire point of that example is that they could not afford those things.

I'm not talking about the poor people who are scraping by to pay the rent, utilities, and food bill every month who indulge in a bag of chips or cookies every now and then. For anyone not on public assistance, no problem, they can buy whatever they want. You are the one proposing to treat them like children by giving them our money so they can indulge in frivolous purchases while children are literally dying of diseases and malnutrition in third world countries. Get some perspective.

And the reason you are linking the "frivilous" poor here with 3rd world children dying of disease and malnutrition is...?

 

[Axulus]

The entire point of that example is that they could not afford those things.

I'm not talking about the poor people who are scraping by to pay the rent, utilities, and food bill every month who indulge in a bag of chips or cookies every now and then. For anyone not on public assistance, no problem, they can buy whatever they want. You are the one proposing to treat them like children by giving them our money so they can indulge in frivolous purchases while children are literally dying of diseases and malnutrition in third world countries. Get some perspective.

And the reason you are linking the "frivilous" poor here with 3rd world children dying of disease and malnutrition is...?

Because AA is defending them and has suggested that their public assistance should be increased. Have you been following her posts? The link is in regards to better uses for tax funds, with the third world poor just being one possibility far more deserving compared to a low income household who wants a pair of brand name shoes and is disgusted by those filthy brands at Payless ShoeSource.