The Culture of Poverty, the Culture of Cruelty: How America Fights the Poor and Not Poverty

[AthenaAwakened]

No.

Then perhaps it might help to allow for the grayness of life in discussion?

There is much in your topics that I find very intriguing, and I would really like to discuss in much more detail - specifically with you. You have experience and knowledge that I think will lend you a perspective that is both unique and educational. But I find your approach to discussion very difficult to engage. You seem to come in "fist swinging" ready for a fight. I understand that there is a lot of history with some posters here. I'm asking you to set that history aside, and focus on the topic that you wish to discuss, and what you wish to accomplish. That way those of us without the history have a small chance of getting in there and getting some learning done before the whole thing self-destructs!

Emily,

I have been arguing with some of these people for over a decade. At first, I tried very hard to be cordial and gracious and kind. In that time i have turned forty and my "I don't give a fuck" gene has kicked in.

And I have grown further to the left, I freely admit that.

There is just too much injustice, too much suffering, too much work to be done and too little time to keep explaining the same things over and over to the same people (some of whom just want to win a fight somewhere in their lives and not to solve a damn thing) to tread carefully and worry about grown folks having their feelings hurt when real people are being evicted, getting sick, and being shot to death. I am not here to save sousl, offer absolution or vindication.

If you want to have a nuanced discussion about any topic, I am more than open to that. I would LOVE to do that actually.

I am in continuous arguments with more than one person on these boards and things said in those arguments too often have to do with the contentious argument and not the topic at hand.

I hope that clears that up

 

[Emily Lake]

Emily,

I have been arguing with some of these people for over a decade. At first, I tried very hard to be cordial and gracious and kind. In that time i have turned forty and my "I don't give a fuck" gene has kicked in.

And I have grown further to the left, I freely admit that.

There is just too much injustice, too much suffering, too much work to be done and too little time to keep explaining the same things over and over to the same people (some of whom just want to win a fight somewhere in their lives and not to solve a damn thing) to tread carefully and worry about grown folks having their feelings hurt when real people are being evicted, getting sick, and being shot to death. I am not here to save sousl, offer absolution or vindication.

If you want to have a nuanced discussion about any topic, I am more than open to that. I would LOVE to do that actually.

I am in continuous arguments with more than one person on these boards and things said in those arguments too often have to do with the contentious argument and not the topic at hand.

I hope that clears that up

I can certainly understand and respect that. How about a proposal then? How about you and I enter in to a discussion, just the two of us? If someone comes along who has something insightful to say that contributes to the discussion, then you and I can decide whether or not to allow them to join our conversation. Otherwise, we simply ignore everyone else. Let them make their comments, but we don't have to respond. Consider it background noise in the restaurant, while you and I have a lively discussion over some caprese salad and a glass of malbec:

 

[bleubird]

As to 90 year old being arrested for feeding the homeless.Hunger is not the big problem,housing is the problem.If cities really want to help they need to fund places where the homeless can go on a long term basses.not just shelters for the night,but rooms in a supervised setting.Kind of like a half way house.Am willing to bet that in the long term this would cost the tax payers less than the revolving door of incarceration and emergency rooms.
http://www.npr.org/2014/11/09/362737965/consultant-on-homelessness-cities-enable-the-poor

 

[RavenSky]

On the one hand we have people like Axulus insisting that all the ills can be cured by private charity,

[citation needed]

The point trying to be made is that poverty in a developed country like the United States is mostly a hardship. Rarely is it life threatening or causing extreme suffering, especially in comparison to poverty in non-developed countries. Additionally, such hardship can be reduced to a significant degree in a developed country without government intervention, through community action, support from friends and family, and self efforts. Government intervention can backfire with unintended consequences and lack of compassion (being a faceless, distant bureaucracy), which you apparently agree with in that it can actually be used to fight the poor and not poverty.

...

 

[Axulus]

We are not talking about the Untouchables in India but about the poor in the US. And while causes vary, many stay in poverty due to poor decisions they are making including bad money management and living beyond their means. Consider this article:
Rental America: Why the poor pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa (excuse the annoying web design of WaPo)
The article is supposed to be very sympathetic toward the struggling family it profiles but its actual effect is to highlight how this family remains in poverty due to their own choices. The headline already tells the story. People who are poor have no business buying $1500 furniture as there are much cheaper options available even new but if need be buying used on Craigslist is also an option. I.e. they are living beyond their means. And they show poor money management skills by agreeing to an expensive installment plan instead of maybe buying the items piecemeal as they can afford them if they have no access to credit at reasonable terms.
And it's not like Buddy's (the rent-to-own company they talk about in the article) only carries furniture. Big screen TVs, smartphones and even jewelry are also available. All things people can do without if they want to live within their means. And it's not like Abbots (family featured in the article) learned from their mistake either

I.e. they keep getting more stuff they can't afford (they struggle to pay a cell phone bill but get a smartphone - not smart!) Oh and they are smokers too - unhealthy and expensive. First rule of finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Second would be to maybe try to get out.

Find work? She’s tried, but neither Wal-Mart nor Jack’s nor the nursing home cafeteria have shown interest in an applicant with psoriasis and a ninth-grade education.

She isn't working so what is she doing with all that free time? Certainly not studying for a GED or learning a marketable skill.

Derec,

We can outlaw the Rent-a-centers of the world and then this is not a problem.

No one, rich or poor, is going to rent a sofa for any amount of money, if they are paid enough for their work to buy it. All of this is connected. that's how SOCIAL PROBLEMS are. It's not just about renting a sofa, it's about credit laws and wages earned and housing and usury and education, etc. It is all connected and it all has to be fixed

Now I know the rugged individualism lie is strong

But fight it Derec

Step into the light

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Emily,

I have been arguing with some of these people for over a decade. At first, I tried very hard to be cordial and gracious and kind. In that time i have turned forty and my "I don't give a fuck" gene has kicked in.

And I have grown further to the left, I freely admit that.

There is just too much injustice, too much suffering, too much work to be done and too little time to keep explaining the same things over and over to the same people (some of whom just want to win a fight somewhere in their lives and not to solve a damn thing) to tread carefully and worry about grown folks having their feelings hurt when real people are being evicted, getting sick, and being shot to death. I am not here to save sousl, offer absolution or vindication.

If you want to have a nuanced discussion about any topic, I am more than open to that. I would LOVE to do that actually.

I am in continuous arguments with more than one person on these boards and things said in those arguments too often have to do with the contentious argument and not the topic at hand.

I hope that clears that up

I can certainly understand and respect that. How about a proposal then? How about you and I enter in to a discussion, just the two of us? If someone comes along who has something insightful to say that contributes to the discussion, then you and I can decide whether or not to allow them to join our conversation. Otherwise, we simply ignore everyone else. Let them make their comments, but we don't have to respond. Consider it background noise in the restaurant, while you and I have a lively discussion over some caprese salad and a glass of malbec:

View attachment 1537

I can go for that

 

[Harry Bosch]

Then perhaps it might help to allow for the grayness of life in discussion?

There is much in your topics that I find very intriguing, and I would really like to discuss in much more detail - specifically with you. You have experience and knowledge that I think will lend you a perspective that is both unique and educational. But I find your approach to discussion very difficult to engage. You seem to come in "fist swinging" ready for a fight. I understand that there is a lot of history with some posters here. I'm asking you to set that history aside, and focus on the topic that you wish to discuss, and what you wish to accomplish. That way those of us without the history have a small chance of getting in there and getting some learning done before the whole thing self-destructs!

Emily,

I have been arguing with some of these people for over a decade. At first, I tried very hard to be cordial and gracious and kind. In that time i have turned forty and my "I don't give a fuck" gene has kicked in.

And I have grown further to the left, I freely admit that.

There is just too much injustice, too much suffering, too much work to be done and too little time to keep explaining the same things over and over to the same people (some of whom just want to win a fight somewhere in their lives and not to solve a damn thing) to tread carefully and worry about grown folks having their feelings hurt when real people are being evicted, getting sick, and being shot to death. I am not here to save sousl, offer absolution or vindication.

If you want to have a nuanced discussion about any topic, I am more than open to that. I would LOVE to do that actually.

I am in continuous arguments with more than one person on these boards and things said in those arguments too often have to do with the contentious argument and not the topic at hand.

I hope that clears that up

How sad. I think that it would be so boring to only have friends that you agree with! I've found many on this forum that I often disagree with but none-the-less respect and even like.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't want the government to fight poverty, why are you complaining that the government isn't doing it??


Poverty is a mental state internal to the person, not merely a lack of money.

This is a gross assumption on your part, Mr. Pechtel...one you really have no right to make. I agree that poor people are more or less bereft of hope and feel unable to make plans for the future. There is al old saw that applies..."it takes money to make money." Your argument rests on the notion that whatever is is deserved by all who experience it. So if you are wealthy, you deserve it. So if you are poor you deserve it. There is nothing motivational in your message. Perhaps you need to realize this about yourself. Your argument is that life and social status are and ought to be static. You seem to have no desire for anything but self interest and believe in nothing else. Are you an Ayn Rand fan too?

That is *NOT* what I'm saying. Not all poor people are poor because of their own failings. I'm saying those that fail to climb out while in a system that lets them climb out are trapped by their own failings, not the system.

We see plenty of immigrants come here and make it. It certainly can be done despite having worse handicaps.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Emily,

I have been arguing with some of these people for over a decade. At first, I tried very hard to be cordial and gracious and kind. In that time i have turned forty and my "I don't give a fuck" gene has kicked in.

And I have grown further to the left, I freely admit that.

There is just too much injustice, too much suffering, too much work to be done and too little time to keep explaining the same things over and over to the same people (some of whom just want to win a fight somewhere in their lives and not to solve a damn thing) to tread carefully and worry about grown folks having their feelings hurt when real people are being evicted, getting sick, and being shot to death. I am not here to save sousl, offer absolution or vindication.

If you want to have a nuanced discussion about any topic, I am more than open to that. I would LOVE to do that actually.

I am in continuous arguments with more than one person on these boards and things said in those arguments too often have to do with the contentious argument and not the topic at hand.

I hope that clears that up

How sad. I think that it would be so boring to only have friends that you agree with! I've found many on this forum that I often disagree with but none-the-less respect and even like.

Arguing isn't the problem. But The same damn argument for 11 years?!?!?!?

Hell, my Ex and I broke up after 7, and he was paying bills and I was sleeping with him.

 

[Toni]

We are not talking about the Untouchables in India but about the poor in the US. And while causes vary, many stay in poverty due to poor decisions they are making including bad money management and living beyond their means. Consider this article:
Rental America: Why the poor pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa (excuse the annoying web design of WaPo)
The article is supposed to be very sympathetic toward the struggling family it profiles but its actual effect is to highlight how this family remains in poverty due to their own choices. The headline already tells the story. People who are poor have no business buying $1500 furniture as there are much cheaper options available even new but if need be buying used on Craigslist is also an option. I.e. they are living beyond their means. And they show poor money management skills by agreeing to an expensive installment plan instead of maybe buying the items piecemeal as they can afford them if they have no access to credit at reasonable terms.
And it's not like Buddy's (the rent-to-own company they talk about in the article) only carries furniture. Big screen TVs, smartphones and even jewelry are also available. All things people can do without if they want to live within their means. And it's not like Abbots (family featured in the article) learned from their mistake either

I.e. they keep getting more stuff they can't afford (they struggle to pay a cell phone bill but get a smartphone - not smart!) Oh and they are smokers too - unhealthy and expensive. First rule of finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Second would be to maybe try to get out.

Find work? She’s tried, but neither Wal-Mart nor Jack’s nor the nursing home cafeteria have shown interest in an applicant with psoriasis and a ninth-grade education.

She isn't working so what is she doing with all that free time? Certainly not studying for a GED or learning a marketable skill.

Derec,

We can outlaw the Rent-a-centers of the world and then this is not a problem.

No one, rich or poor, is going to rent a sofa for any amount of money, if they are paid enough for their work to buy it. All of this is connected. that's how SOCIAL PROBLEMS are. It's not just about renting a sofa, it's about credit laws and wages earned and housing and usury and education, etc. It is all connected and it all has to be fixed

Now I know the rugged individualism lie is strong

But fight it Derec

Step into the light

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

Eh, at a certain point in time I got tired of having only other people's cast offs/stuff I picked up from the curb or for a few bucks (generally well under $100) and decided I wanted something that I picked out especially for my place. From a store. In a color that I wanted. Not just something I had to settle for. Well made generally lasts longer, too and I'd rather pay for quality and have it last for 20 years than pay discount store prices and have it look like crap in 5 years.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

We are not talking about the Untouchables in India but about the poor in the US. And while causes vary, many stay in poverty due to poor decisions they are making including bad money management and living beyond their means. Consider this article:
Rental America: Why the poor pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa (excuse the annoying web design of WaPo)
The article is supposed to be very sympathetic toward the struggling family it profiles but its actual effect is to highlight how this family remains in poverty due to their own choices. The headline already tells the story. People who are poor have no business buying $1500 furniture as there are much cheaper options available even new but if need be buying used on Craigslist is also an option. I.e. they are living beyond their means. And they show poor money management skills by agreeing to an expensive installment plan instead of maybe buying the items piecemeal as they can afford them if they have no access to credit at reasonable terms.
And it's not like Buddy's (the rent-to-own company they talk about in the article) only carries furniture. Big screen TVs, smartphones and even jewelry are also available. All things people can do without if they want to live within their means. And it's not like Abbots (family featured in the article) learned from their mistake either

I.e. they keep getting more stuff they can't afford (they struggle to pay a cell phone bill but get a smartphone - not smart!) Oh and they are smokers too - unhealthy and expensive. First rule of finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Second would be to maybe try to get out.

Find work? She’s tried, but neither Wal-Mart nor Jack’s nor the nursing home cafeteria have shown interest in an applicant with psoriasis and a ninth-grade education.

She isn't working so what is she doing with all that free time? Certainly not studying for a GED or learning a marketable skill.

Derec,

We can outlaw the Rent-a-centers of the world and then this is not a problem.

No one, rich or poor, is going to rent a sofa for any amount of money, if they are paid enough for their work to buy it. All of this is connected. that's how SOCIAL PROBLEMS are. It's not just about renting a sofa, it's about credit laws and wages earned and housing and usury and education, etc. It is all connected and it all has to be fixed

Now I know the rugged individualism lie is strong

But fight it Derec

Step into the light

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

Eh, at a certain point in time I got tired of having only other people's cast offs/stuff I picked up from the curb or for a few bucks (generally well under $100) and decided I wanted something that I picked out especially for my place. From a store. In a color that I wanted. Not just something I had to settle for. Well made generally lasts longer, too and I'd rather pay for quality and have it last for 20 years than pay discount store prices and have it look like crap in 5 years.

Most people would.

You know what one of the worst things about being poor is? Having to constantly refuse any goodies in life so that your "neighbors" can give you a passing grade at being poor. You are not allowed "new," "a treat," or "special." In order to be properly poor, you had better be seen as constantly scrapping and scraping, ragged and worn. Anything above bare subsistence, and you are acting uppity, above your station and you will not get your passing grade.

 

[Axulus]

We are not talking about the Untouchables in India but about the poor in the US. And while causes vary, many stay in poverty due to poor decisions they are making including bad money management and living beyond their means. Consider this article:
Rental America: Why the poor pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa (excuse the annoying web design of WaPo)
The article is supposed to be very sympathetic toward the struggling family it profiles but its actual effect is to highlight how this family remains in poverty due to their own choices. The headline already tells the story. People who are poor have no business buying $1500 furniture as there are much cheaper options available even new but if need be buying used on Craigslist is also an option. I.e. they are living beyond their means. And they show poor money management skills by agreeing to an expensive installment plan instead of maybe buying the items piecemeal as they can afford them if they have no access to credit at reasonable terms.
And it's not like Buddy's (the rent-to-own company they talk about in the article) only carries furniture. Big screen TVs, smartphones and even jewelry are also available. All things people can do without if they want to live within their means. And it's not like Abbots (family featured in the article) learned from their mistake either

I.e. they keep getting more stuff they can't afford (they struggle to pay a cell phone bill but get a smartphone - not smart!) Oh and they are smokers too - unhealthy and expensive. First rule of finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Second would be to maybe try to get out.

Find work? She’s tried, but neither Wal-Mart nor Jack’s nor the nursing home cafeteria have shown interest in an applicant with psoriasis and a ninth-grade education.

She isn't working so what is she doing with all that free time? Certainly not studying for a GED or learning a marketable skill.

Derec,

We can outlaw the Rent-a-centers of the world and then this is not a problem.

No one, rich or poor, is going to rent a sofa for any amount of money, if they are paid enough for their work to buy it. All of this is connected. that's how SOCIAL PROBLEMS are. It's not just about renting a sofa, it's about credit laws and wages earned and housing and usury and education, etc. It is all connected and it all has to be fixed

Now I know the rugged individualism lie is strong

But fight it Derec

Step into the light

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

Eh, at a certain point in time I got tired of having only other people's cast offs/stuff I picked up from the curb or for a few bucks (generally well under $100) and decided I wanted something that I picked out especially for my place. From a store. In a color that I wanted. Not just something I had to settle for. Well made generally lasts longer, too and I'd rather pay for quality and have it last for 20 years than pay discount store prices and have it look like crap in 5 years.

Most people would.

You know what one of the worst things about being poor is? Having to constantly refuse any goodies in life so that your "neighbors" can give you a passing grade at being poor. You are not allowed "new," "a treat," or "special." In order to be properly poor, you had better be seen as constantly scrapping and scraping, ragged and worn. Anything above bare subsistence, and you are acting uppity, above your station and you will not get your passing grade.

It simply means that life is good enough that "new", "a treat" or "special" was of greater priority than any other possible use of the money, which means that all the necessities are taken care of and there is ample savings for future hardship. If not, then obviously these things aren't valued and is exactly the kind of mental state that Loren is referring to, that giving them additional funds won't suddenly cure. It also means that "new", "a treat" or "special" is literally more important than the lives of destitute third world individuals since the money could have otherwise been used to alleviate their suffering and potentially save their life. A much better use of funds than "a treat", wouldn't you agree?

 

[arkirk]

Still declining, another 5% decline from the beginning of 2013 to the beginning of 2014.

All Homeless People
• In January 2014, 578,424 people were homeless
on a given night. Most (69 percent) were
staying in residential programs for homeless
people, and the rest (31 percent) were found in
unsheltered locations

https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/AHAR-2014-Part1.pdf

Were there really 578,424 homeless people in the U.S. in January 2014? Who the fuck counted them? God? So in one given night, some magical counting outfit counted them. Do you really expect me to believe that? Have you wondered why the homeless tend to live in areas that don't have cold winters? These no feeding laws are hateful and intimidating and harmful to those in need. Your glib superior attitude toward people you do not know and have no idea how they came to be where they are is so dismissive and in my estimation a character disorder in its own right. It is the same kind of denial that gives us Ferguson...branding poor people unfit to be seen (or fed) in public. You need to do a little soul searching my friend and find out if you still have a heart. The existence of these extremely poor individuals is evidence of the lie of capitalism.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Still declining, another 5% decline from the beginning of 2013 to the beginning of 2014.



https://www.hudexchange.info/resources/documents/AHAR-2014-Part1.pdf

Were there really 578,424 homeless people in the U.S. in January 2014? Who the fuck counted them? God? So in one given night, some magical counting outfit counted them. Do you really expect me to believe that? Have you wondered why the homeless tend to live in areas that don't have cold winters? These no feeding laws are hateful and intimidating and harmful to those in need. Your glib superior attitude toward people you do not know and have no idea how they came to be where they are is so dismissive and in my estimation a character disorder in its own right. It is the same kind of denial that gives us Ferguson...branding poor people unfit to be seen (or fed) in public. You need to do a little soul searching my friend and find out if you still have a heart. The existence of these extremely poor individuals is evidence of the lie of capitalism.

To add to that, the homeless hide, and they are very good at that. The police roust them and they are primary targets of crime so being invisible is a survival technique. Especially the working homeless. And the homeless who still have cars are exceedingly good at hiding because (1) they have cars so they are mobile and (2) if they are working, as many of them are, they don't need their bosses knowing that they are homeless. And notice this doesn't count couch surfers and "longtime visits from friends of the family."

 

[AthenaAwakened]

We are not talking about the Untouchables in India but about the poor in the US. And while causes vary, many stay in poverty due to poor decisions they are making including bad money management and living beyond their means. Consider this article:
Rental America: Why the poor pay $4,150 for a $1,500 sofa (excuse the annoying web design of WaPo)
The article is supposed to be very sympathetic toward the struggling family it profiles but its actual effect is to highlight how this family remains in poverty due to their own choices. The headline already tells the story. People who are poor have no business buying $1500 furniture as there are much cheaper options available even new but if need be buying used on Craigslist is also an option. I.e. they are living beyond their means. And they show poor money management skills by agreeing to an expensive installment plan instead of maybe buying the items piecemeal as they can afford them if they have no access to credit at reasonable terms.
And it's not like Buddy's (the rent-to-own company they talk about in the article) only carries furniture. Big screen TVs, smartphones and even jewelry are also available. All things people can do without if they want to live within their means. And it's not like Abbots (family featured in the article) learned from their mistake either

I.e. they keep getting more stuff they can't afford (they struggle to pay a cell phone bill but get a smartphone - not smart!) Oh and they are smokers too - unhealthy and expensive. First rule of finding yourself in a hole is to stop digging.
Second would be to maybe try to get out.

Find work? She’s tried, but neither Wal-Mart nor Jack’s nor the nursing home cafeteria have shown interest in an applicant with psoriasis and a ninth-grade education.

She isn't working so what is she doing with all that free time? Certainly not studying for a GED or learning a marketable skill.

Derec,

We can outlaw the Rent-a-centers of the world and then this is not a problem.

No one, rich or poor, is going to rent a sofa for any amount of money, if they are paid enough for their work to buy it. All of this is connected. that's how SOCIAL PROBLEMS are. It's not just about renting a sofa, it's about credit laws and wages earned and housing and usury and education, etc. It is all connected and it all has to be fixed

Now I know the rugged individualism lie is strong

But fight it Derec

Step into the light

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

Eh, at a certain point in time I got tired of having only other people's cast offs/stuff I picked up from the curb or for a few bucks (generally well under $100) and decided I wanted something that I picked out especially for my place. From a store. In a color that I wanted. Not just something I had to settle for. Well made generally lasts longer, too and I'd rather pay for quality and have it last for 20 years than pay discount store prices and have it look like crap in 5 years.

Most people would.

You know what one of the worst things about being poor is? Having to constantly refuse any goodies in life so that your "neighbors" can give you a passing grade at being poor. You are not allowed "new," "a treat," or "special." In order to be properly poor, you had better be seen as constantly scrapping and scraping, ragged and worn. Anything above bare subsistence, and you are acting uppity, above your station and you will not get your passing grade.

It simply means that life is good enough that "new", "a treat" or "special" was of greater priority than any other possible use of the money, which means that all the necessities are taken care of and there is ample savings for future hardship. If not, then obviously these things aren't valued and is exactly the kind of mental state that Loren is referring to, that giving them additional funds won't suddenly cure. It also means that "new", "a treat" or "special" is literally more important than the lives of destitute third world individuals since the money could have otherwise been used to alleviate their suffering and potentially save their life. A much better use of funds than "a treat", wouldn't you agree?

And who are you to make that decision? If you are behind on the rent $900.00, behind on the electric bill, the water bill, and every other bill because your car died and you had to replace it, or your kid got sick and you missed work, maybe weeks worth of work, and your kid wants new Chuck Taylors and they are $45 bucks, are you gonna refuse him? When you are so deep in the hole you can't even daylight bussed down to you, how many times do you just keep telling a kid no? How many times do you just keep telling yourself no, just so people who don't give a damn about you can feel that they are protecting the moral good?

 

[Playball40]

Were there really 578,424 homeless people in the U.S. in January 2014? Who the fuck counted them? God? So in one given night, some magical counting outfit counted them. Do you really expect me to believe that? Have you wondered why the homeless tend to live in areas that don't have cold winters? These no feeding laws are hateful and intimidating and harmful to those in need. Your glib superior attitude toward people you do not know and have no idea how they came to be where they are is so dismissive and in my estimation a character disorder in its own right. It is the same kind of denial that gives us Ferguson...branding poor people unfit to be seen (or fed) in public. You need to do a little soul searching my friend and find out if you still have a heart. The existence of these extremely poor individuals is evidence of the lie of capitalism.

To add to that, the homeless hide, and they are very good at that. The police roust them and they are primary targets of crime so being invisible is a survival technique. Especially the working homeless. And the homeless who still have cars are exceedingly good at hiding because (1) they have cars so they are mobile and (2) if they are working, as many of them are, they don't need their bosses knowing that they are homeless. And notice this doesn't count couch surfers and "longtime visits from friends of the family."

Not to mention that even if that number was right, which I doubt, it is still OVER a half million people in this country with no roof. WTH? That's not something we should be cheering.

 

[Derec]

Eh, at a certain point in time I got tired of having only other people's cast offs/stuff I picked up from the curb or for a few bucks (generally well under $100) and decided I wanted something that I picked out especially for my place. From a store. In a color that I wanted. Not just something I had to settle for. Well made generally lasts longer, too and I'd rather pay for quality and have it last for 20 years than pay discount store prices and have it look like crap in 5 years.

First of all, there is a wide space between sub-$100 and $1500. You can even find new sofa/loveseat combos for half that.
Second, even if you set your heart on that particular model you did write "at some point" i.e. eventually. They could have sat on old furniture for a year and saved up enough to pay cash. And they could have bought the two pieces separately, as they had money to buy each.
The problem for this family is impulse buys. Every time they go to pay their bill (in person for some reason) they are in danger of seeing something new and shiny that strikes their fancy and that they just must have with the result that their rent-to-own bill is now almost as high as their housing bill.

Lastly, when you can't afford something you have to settle for something lesser and/or you delay the purchase.

Most people would.
You know what one of the worst things about being poor is? Having to constantly refuse any goodies in life so that your "neighbors" can give you a passing grade at being poor. You are not allowed "new," "a treat," or "special." In order to be properly poor, you had better be seen as constantly scrapping and scraping, ragged and worn. Anything above bare subsistence, and you are acting uppity, above your station and you will not get your passing grade.

Is that what you teach at your "economic self-defense classes"? That people should give in to all their impulses? Full speed ahead and damn the financial torpedoes?

And who are you to make that decision?

It's advice not a decision. They make their own decisions.

If you are behind on the rent $900.00, behind on the electric bill, the water bill, and every other bill because your car died and you had to replace it, or your kid got sick and you missed work, maybe weeks worth of work, and your kid wants new Chuck Taylors and they are $45 bucks, are you gonna refuse him? When you are so deep in the hole you can't even daylight bussed down to you, how many times do you just keep telling a kid no? How many times do you just keep telling yourself no, just so people who don't give a damn about you can feel that they are protecting the moral good?

Apparently you do teach that in your classes.

 

[Derec]

Why does anyone need to buy a $1,500 sofa? I make a middle class living and got my couch at the thrift store for $100

This should be Abbotts' theme song:

 

[Derec]

Unlike you, I actually teach workshops on economic self defense.

As you have mentioned in another thread. I still don't know what exactly "economic self defense" is. What do you teach people there? If it's what you are arguing in this thread - they they should buy stuff that they can't afford as a FU to neighbors who think they are uppity or something - I do not think they are being well served.

I will be teaching one tonight at one of the local Baptist churches.

Traitor!

But no one in that room is going to labor under the impression that poverty can be ended by the thirty people who signed up for class simply making better decisions. These people already make better decisions.

I don't know those 30 people or what kind of decisions they are making but let's look again at the family featured in that WaPo article. Do you agree that they are making some very poor decisions? Do you agree that their financial situation could be significantly improved by making better decisions?

Since I started doing these workshops over ten years ago, I have met extraordinary people living in appalling conditions who regularly perform economic miracles.

Fitting the church setting I am sure.

People who manage month after month to squeeze a dollar out of dime.

If they find a silver dime, sure.

They don't need you or me to tell them that money is precious or that spending it takes thought. What they need is organization, education, and determination not be targeted as a group as con artist's mark.

The first part of this last paragraph makes some sense.

They need to stop seeing themselves the way the victim blamers do and they need to stop accepting that this is their place and they can't demand better, not just for themselves but for everyone and everyone yet to come.

The notion that they can "demand better" even if they can't afford better is the cause or at least an aggravating factor of their problems. So this second part doesn't make sense on it's face value. Care to elaborate further?

 

[Sabine Grant]

To add to that, the homeless hide, and they are very good at that. The police roust them and they are primary targets of crime so being invisible is a survival technique. Especially the working homeless. And the homeless who still have cars are exceedingly good at hiding because (1) they have cars so they are mobile and (2) if they are working, as many of them are, they don't need their bosses knowing that they are homeless. And notice this doesn't count couch surfers and "longtime visits from friends of the family."

Not to mention that even if that number was right, which I doubt, it is still OVER a half million people in this country with no roof. WTH? That's not something we should be cheering.

Did you know Playball that Tampa Bay alone has a population of over 7400 homeless folks?

http://list25.com/25-cities-extremely-high-homeless-populations/ Tampa being # 15 on the list.

The homeless situation in our geographical area has been aggravated by the high cost of rentals and the fact that working homeless persons usually do not generate an income sufficient to support security deposits or first and last month of rent to be paid upon signing a rental agreement. To add that most of them have a very poor credit score which then results in higher security deposits. Then of course, finding employment when you cannot provide a fixed domicile address. There is a such a negative stereotype attached to the term "homeless".

Part of the mission of the ambulatory soup kitchen my son and I volunteered for, was to assist our homeless visitors in finding a job. We were not successful at all. The best we could find were jobs like a dishwasher.Or temporary "handy man" type of jobs which did not offer a constant and stable income. The very little we could do ended when a city ordinance prohibited ambulatory soup kitchens. They were useful in the sense that they would be set up near by "tent cities" and would serve as a bridge between various groups and our homeless folks. It was easier to identify what the needs were and how to meet them when being able to communicate and interact with a concentration of homeless folks rather than isolated individuals.

Metropolitan Ministries remains the outfit which assists them while they are equipped with transportation to pick them up wherever they are and drive them to their facilities. Part of their programs is to receive old or unused cars as donations so that they may serve as individual shelters rather than those poor folks being reduced to sleep in the streets. Especially since another city ordinance now prohibits sleeping or stationing in public parks overnight.