Vaccine Resistance and the COVID Passport Effect

[Copernicus]

In the US and particularly among conservatives, there is strong resistance to measures that prevent the spread of the disease or even acknowledge its existence. Medical experts believe that mass vaccinations are a necessary step in bringing the pandemic under control, but too many people are hostile to the idea of getting vaccinated. Stories of side effects also play a role in scaring people away. What I am curious about here is how vaccine resistance will stand up against the need for a "COVID passport"--i.e. some kind of official proof of vaccination--in order to work, travel, or attend public events.

Here is a BBC article on the subject: 'Vaccine passports': Will I need one for going out, work and travel?

If possible, please try to stay focused on the vaccine documentation requirement issue, as there are other threads to discuss COVID. Will it even be possible for businesses to implement such a requirement?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Will it even be possible for businesses to implement such a requirement?

Part of Massachussets vs. Jacobsen hinged on the role of government highlighted in the preamble as "promote the general welfare."
Trumpeting the right to be a plague rat is not promoting anyone's welfare, even your own. So the government's probably going to be demanding vaccinations for certain jobs/positions, to protect the workers and the clients. This will make it easier for businesses to make the same demands, to protect employees and customers.

And i forsee a sharp upsurge in familiarity with the actual provisions of the ADA, along with widespread misinformation about what the ADA promises

 

[bilby]

For international travel from affected nations, there is already a WHO 'passport' that currently only applies to Yellow Fever, but would be relatively easy to expand to include Covid.

https://www.who.int/ihr/ports_airports/icvp/en/

The other option would be for each destination country to have its own form (more a 'vaccination visa' than a 'vaccination passport').

Certainly I would not expect Australia and New Zealand to reopen their borders without requiring something of this kind.

 

[Copernicus]

For international travel from affected nations, there is already a WHO 'passport' that currently only applies to Yellow Fever, but would be relatively easy to expand to include Covid.

https://www.who.int/ihr/ports_airports/icvp/en/

The other option would be for each destination country to have its own form (more a 'vaccination visa' than a 'vaccination passport').

Certainly I would not expect Australia and New Zealand to reopen their borders without requiring something of this kind.

Good points. We have vaccination cards to document our immunization, but I'm not sure whether that alone will be convincing, especially in foreign countries. I understand that there may be some kind of phone app to be of use when traveling in Europe. It would be easy to forge vaccination documents, so I'm not sure how such passports will be validated.

The Qantas CEO has already suggested that governments require it for flying, but I suspect that compliance will vary across countries. If Qantas were to insist on such a requirement, then it might find that there aren't that many potential passengers who were able or willing to get vaccinated. Many countries still have trouble getting supplies of the vaccine.

Qantas boss: Governments 'to insist' on vaccines for flying

 

[TomC]

If Qantas were to insist on such a requirement, then it might find that there aren't that many potential passengers who were able or willing to get vaccinated.

I'm a lousy source of anecdotal evidence on this subject. I don't want a vaccine anytime soon, nor am I interested in jet travel.

But, if I were, I definitely choose an airline with strict conditions on this. Before I get in a metal tube breathing everybody's else's stuff for awhile, I'd want to know if they're more careful about who they let on the jet than a local bar.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

For international travel from affected nations, there is already a WHO 'passport' that currently only applies to Yellow Fever, but would be relatively easy to expand to include Covid.

https://www.who.int/ihr/ports_airports/icvp/en/

The other option would be for each destination country to have its own form (more a 'vaccination visa' than a 'vaccination passport').

Certainly I would not expect Australia and New Zealand to reopen their borders without requiring something of this kind.

Exactly. If you're coming from a Yellow Fever country you're going to be expected to show your card showing you are vaccinated. You used to also have to show a smallpox vaccination. I know there were others on my card (they are used for all the travel vaccines) but whether they were required for travel I do not recall.

I fully expect to see Covid added to the list for anyone coming from a country with Covid--which currently means everywhere.

 

[Copernicus]

If Qantas were to insist on such a requirement, then it might find that there aren't that many potential passengers who were able or willing to get vaccinated.

I'm a lousy source of anecdotal evidence on this subject. I don't want a vaccine anytime soon, nor am I interested in jet travel.

But, if I were, I definitely choose an airline with strict conditions on this. Before I get in a metal tube breathing everybody's else's stuff for awhile, I'd want to know if they're more careful about who they let on the jet than a local bar.
Tom

I certainly have no problem with people who want to avoid engaging activities that require some proof of vaccination in the future, but I still think that most people will eventually come up against barriers to some activities that they do want to participate in. It strikes me as a matter of ensuring public health, and efforts to resist health safety requirements risk prolonging the epidemic and exposing more people unnecessarily to infection. The US has been particularly hard-hit by the social movement to fight against proven measures to curb the epidemic, e.g. wearing face masks. Vaccines may be the only practical method we have of bringing this thing under control. We are already beginning to see signs of a fourth wave of infections coming. Nevertheless, human beings have a terrible historical record of public behavior in the face of pending catastrophes. (See, for example, Barbara Tuchman's classic  The March of Folly.)

 

[bilby]

For international travel from affected nations, there is already a WHO 'passport' that currently only applies to Yellow Fever, but would be relatively easy to expand to include Covid.

https://www.who.int/ihr/ports_airports/icvp/en/

The other option would be for each destination country to have its own form (more a 'vaccination visa' than a 'vaccination passport').

Certainly I would not expect Australia and New Zealand to reopen their borders without requiring something of this kind.

Good points. We have vaccination cards to document our immunization, but I'm not sure whether that alone will be convincing, especially in foreign countries. I understand that there may be some kind of phone app to be of use when traveling in Europe. It would be easy to forge vaccination documents, so I'm not sure how such passports will be validated.

The Qantas CEO has already suggested that governments require it for flying, but I suspect that compliance will vary across countries. If Qantas were to insist on such a requirement, then it might find that there aren't that many potential passengers who were able or willing to get vaccinated. Many countries still have trouble getting supplies of the vaccine.

Qantas boss: Governments 'to insist' on vaccines for flying

I presume that the Qantas position is based on an anticipated Australian government regulation affecting all arrivals in Australia. As the national airline, Qantas have few passengers not going either to or from Australia, so it's probably easier for them to have a blanket rule in that situation. And as the current almost complete border closure is killing their business, they will be very keen to comply with anything that gets people flying again as soon as possible.

Australia (and New Zealand, with whom we have a 'travel bubble') have no Covid outside quarantined patients who acquired the disease overseas. After all the hard work keeping it out of the country, and stamping out the few hotspots that did erupt, our governments will be very cautious about who they let in without going through quarantine.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I know there were others on my card (they are used for all the travel vaccines) but whether they were required for travel I do not recall.

I fully expect to see Covid added to the list for anyone coming from a country with Covid--which currently means everywhere.

Oregon just had their first case of pediatric tetnus in like 60 years, in an unvaccinated child.
It's good, sorta, that people are so well served by medical science that they feel completely safe from all these nearly-eradicated diseases, but their educational gaps are going to put all this shit back in play.

Our vacc records for travel will resemble an old AAA travel-tik.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I know there were others on my card (they are used for all the travel vaccines) but whether they were required for travel I do not recall.

I fully expect to see Covid added to the list for anyone coming from a country with Covid--which currently means everywhere.

Oregon just had their first case of pediatric tetnus in like 60 years, in an unvaccinated child.
It's good, sorta, that people are so well served by medical science that they feel completely safe from all these nearly-eradicated diseases, but their educational gaps are going to put all this shit back in play.

Our vacc records for travel will resemble an old AAA travel-tik.

Idiots! It's not like tetanus was ever wiped out, it's simply kept at bay by the vaccine.

 

[crazyfingers]

I typically have to go to Japan and sometimes China in the fall. Whether that happens this year doubt. But if does happen there is no doubt in my mind that those two countries will require me to have a Vaccine Passport of some kind to avoid 2 weeks in quarantine. And if quarantine is still the deal, the trip is off.

 

[TomC]

I typically have to go to Japan and sometimes China in the fall. Whether that happens this year doubt. But if does happen there is no doubt in my mind that those two countries will require me to have a Vaccine Passport of some kind to avoid 2 weeks in quarantine. And if quarantine is still the deal, the trip is off.

Obviously, it isn't still the deal. At least, not as I understand you.
You get to choose between going, getting vaccinated, or quarantine.
Where's the problem?
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

I typically have to go to Japan and sometimes China in the fall. Whether that happens this year doubt. But if does happen there is no doubt in my mind that those two countries will require me to have a Vaccine Passport of some kind to avoid 2 weeks in quarantine. And if quarantine is still the deal, the trip is off.

Obviously, it isn't still the deal. At least, not as I understand you.
You get to choose between going, getting vaccinated, or quarantine.
Where's the problem?
Tom

There isn't a "problem". Just saying. For work I usually need to make that trip. I expect that those two countries will expect some government issued document that I am vaccinated. If the US government doesn't get on board in an international way then I will not make the trip because I will not go if I have to quarantine for two weeks.

Frankly, I've been to Japan over 30 times and China 5 times and I'd be perfectly happy not going any more. But my employer will probably expect me to go so long as I don't have to waste two weeks in quarantine. Again, just stating facts.

 

[TomC]

I typically have to go to Japan and sometimes China in the fall. Whether that happens this year doubt. But if does happen there is no doubt in my mind that those two countries will require me to have a Vaccine Passport of some kind to avoid 2 weeks in quarantine. And if quarantine is still the deal, the trip is off.

Obviously, it isn't still the deal. At least, not as I understand you.
You get to choose between going, getting vaccinated, or quarantine.
Where's the problem?
Tom

There isn't a "problem". Just saying. For work I usually need to make that trip. I expect that those two countries will expect some government issued document that I am vaccinated. If the US government doesn't get on board in an international way then I will not make the trip because I will not go if I have to quarantine for two weeks.

Frankly, I've been to Japan over 30 times and China 5 times and I'd be perfectly happy not going any more. But my employer will probably expect me to go so long as I don't have to waste two weeks in quarantine. Again, just stating facts.

I guess I don't understand what facts you're stating.

My mother-in-law has a card, issued by the government, stating that she's been vaccinated. It includes details, like the times and places and brand of of her two shots. Moderna.

Are you saying that foreign governments have higher standards than a southern Indiana health department's say so(or at least a reasonable facsimile)?

Oh, golly, has the USA lost credibility with foreign governments over the last few years? Could that be true?


We nuked Japan and they stopped messing with us. Didn't they?
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

If you're talking about the CDC vaccination card, ya I have one showing my first dose. They will fill in the second dose when I get that. I doubt that that will be accepted by foreign countries. It's too easy to fake.

I'm not talking about public health agencies in other countries. I'm talking about getting through Customs and Immigration.

 

[TomC]

They will fill in the second dose when I get that. I doubt that that will be accepted by foreign countries.

So, the problem is that the USA lacks credibility.
That doesn't surprise me any.

Maybe a year of Biden administration and the USA will.
Tom

 

[crazyfingers]

They will fill in the second dose when I get that. I doubt that that will be accepted by foreign countries.

So, the problem is that the USA lacks credibility.
That doesn't surprise me any.

Maybe a year of Biden administration and the USA will.
Tom

Don't try to throw a straw-man argument on me.
You clearly didn't read my post. I wrote " It's too easy to fake." That has Zero to do with the CDC or the US government. It's that anyone with a computer and a printer/scanner can easily forge one of those CDC cards. Scan it. White out the hand-writtten data. Print a blank card on card stock and write whatever you want.

 

[bilby]

They will fill in the second dose when I get that. I doubt that that will be accepted by foreign countries.

So, the problem is that the USA lacks credibility.
That doesn't surprise me any.

Maybe a year of Biden administration and the USA will.
Tom

The problem is that (despite, or perhaps because of, the arrogance of its citizens), the USA is not an international body, and other nation states have not agreed to, and are not likely to agree to, recognise her internal documents as valid outside US jurisdiction - Just as the USA doesn't recognise documents issued by other countries. Every nation state "lacks credibility" in the eyes of other nation states, in the absence of detailed treaties to the contrary.

This isn't a new problem, and was solved decades ago, by the WHO, which is an international organisation, and whose documentation for certification of vaccination status is recognised as valid by most nation states, due to the detailed treaties they have entered into to that effect.

Any 'vaccine passport' for Covid is likely to simply consist of the existing Vaccine Passport, with the only step necessary to implement this being the addition of SARS-CoV-2, and a list of the affected nation states, to the appropriate annex of the International Health Regulations (2005) by the World Health Assembly. The WHA meets annually, with the next meeting in Geneva from 24 May until 1 June 2021.

Just because most Americans are unaware that they are part of several supranational organisations is no reason to reinvent the wheel when seeking solutions to international problems.

 

[Copernicus]

You will likely need proof of a negative COVID-19 test in addition to some proof that you have been vaccinated. Even though it would be fairly easy to fake vaccination, governments will probably accept standard documentation from US citizens. They may require something more official than a vaccination card--maybe a letter from your doctor or a printout of a government record that you have been vaccinated.

Since the US is ahead of most other nations in vaccinating citizens, there may be more trust with American travelers than with other nationals, especially since Donald Trump is not the one running the government anymore. Travelers will risk penalties if caught violating the requirements, but that has always been the case. Coming back to the US, I believe that even fully vaccinated US citizens will need a valid negative test to board an international flight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I typically have to go to Japan and sometimes China in the fall. Whether that happens this year doubt. But if does happen there is no doubt in my mind that those two countries will require me to have a Vaccine Passport of some kind to avoid 2 weeks in quarantine. And if quarantine is still the deal, the trip is off.

Unfortunately, I expect China to still require quarantine this fall. They are taking a very hardline approach to keeping it out and the vaccine doesn't provide sterilizing immunity. They lock down anyone remotely exposed--and travelers aren't subject to the exposure tracking that people in China are, they're going to consider all of us possibly exposed.