Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

[DBT]

How many politicians in America would publicly proclaim Christianity or its values to be outdated? Possibly they could argue against interpretation of scripture, but even that seems politically risky.

 

[repoman]

Yet apparently some do have a problem with their conscience, which appears to be based on the JudeoChristian values that form the basis of their world view....so the question: should they be compelled to act against their own values, or should it be left to the market?

I'm not defending that position, just pointing out that it is an issue for those who happen to hold it.

They have to be compelled to act against legitimate values to have a legitimate complaint. This is not a legitimate value. It is an irrational prejudice.

It is just like refusing to serve black people because you don't like them. An irrational prejudice that should not be respected.

People at one time claimed the Bible told them blacks were an inferior race.

Religious freedom does not protect one against irrational prejudices that cause harm. At least it shouldn't.

We have a bunch of ignorant deluded primitives on the Supreme Court that give irrational prejudices more legitimacy they they deserve if they are primitive prejudices from a Christian.

Transgenderism in the times of no hormones or surgery must have been a totally alien concept.

For the aims of the greater good, it seems like people are lying about the Bible NOT being against gay sex acts. I get it, but it is a lie. Not that I care that much as an atheist.

 

[ideologyhunter]

My proposal: order 2 cakes from Masterpiece Cakeshop.
1) A confirmation cake showing Onan ejaculating on the ground. Chocolate sprinkles for pubes. In icing: 'Don't waste splooge. God kills you for that! Congrats on your special day.'
2) A birthday cake showing David's men hacking the foreskins off 200 dead Philistines. Lots of bright red frosting, and gummy worms for foreskins. Icing: 'Hoodies are out!! We got you a polo!! Ha Ha! -Mom & Dad'
My point is to include Bible lessons in everyday life.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I would say no.

Say I am an artist with a studio. I sell off he shelf sculptures and take commissions. Anyone regardless of who they are can buy whatever is for sale.

A white supremacism walks in and wants a statue of Hitler, I would decline and can not be made to take the commission.

The question cuts both ways.

What happens if a black owned bakery is asked to make a cake for Neo Nazis?

Same principal: A bakery must offer the same services and products to all customers. So, if a neo-Nazi group wanted a birthday cake celebrating Hitler's birthday, the bakery should bake the cake but can decline to decorate it with any decorations or verbiage it found offensive.

Disagree--since they aren't going to decorate it I see no obligation to bake it, either.

However, there is nothing inherently offensive about a cake which is pink, decorated with blue icing. The bakery could, imo, be compelled to bake such a cake if they advertise that they create custom cakes in colors to suit the customer. However, if the bakery has a set list of cakes in flavors, colors, decoration, and combinations thereof etc. that it sells, it can offer only what is listed in its menu of offerings. It cannot be compelled, for instance, to decorate a cake in such a way as to depict decapitating a puppy, for instance. Or to produce a cake that tastes like sewage or brussel sprouts.

This. I can even see a policy of "no artwork which may offend"--but apply it across the board.

I also believe that when it's actually art as opposed to simply using a canned image that an artist should be free to refuse any commission they disagree with.

Hitler killed millions of people. He is one of the most despised humans in history.

The transgender guy/gal never hurt anyone.

I know what the moral answer is.

It is immoral to discriminate. It is immoral to dislike people simply because they are different.

Many of the KKK crowd see Hitler as a lot better than the transgender person.

 

[Metaphor]

How many posters here would support forcing the baker to bake the cake and include the words 'Happy Gender Transition to Autumn Scardina'?

I'm curious. I assume most would not support the State compelling the baker to do that, though it appears untermensche would support such compulsion.

 

[Toni]

Selling a cake, when you are in the cake selling business, is not an expression of support for the actions of the cake buyers.
Everyone knows that.


...demonstrate that he didn’t have a problem with the cake requested, but with the person who was buying it.

Which is not legal.

force him to bake a cake with a certain message.

No, to force him to show that it’s not the message (there was only one in her mind - pink insides and blue outsides does not only mean trans party) but the person - that he would not do business with a person because of their gender.


Mmmm, which is illegal.

And of course you are correct. If they would sell a pink cake with blue icing to me for my child’s birthday, then they would be required to sella pink cake with blue icing to someone who they did not like or thought was ‘wrong.’

 

[laughing dog]

So what if the customer was "trapping' Phillips? Either Phillips' refusal was legal or it wasn't. This case will decide it.

 

[Metaphor]

Selling a cake, when you are in the cake selling business, is not an expression of support for the actions of the cake buyers.
Everyone knows that.


...demonstrate that he didn’t have a problem with the cake requested, but with the person who was buying it.

Which is not legal.

force him to bake a cake with a certain message.

No, to force him to show that it’s not the message (there was only one in her mind - pink insides and blue outsides does not only mean trans party) but the person - that he would not do business with a person because of their gender.


Mmmm, which is illegal.

And of course you are correct. If they would sell a pink cake with blue icing to me for my child’s birthday, then they would be required to sella pink cake with blue icing to someone who they did not like or thought was ‘wrong.’

Phillips did not refuse to sell a cake to somebody because that person was transgender.

He refused to make a cake with a colour symbology specifically chosen to 'celebrate' gender transition.

 

[Metaphor]

So what if the customer was "trapping' Phillips? Either Phillips' refusal was legal or it wasn't. This case will decide it.

It speaks to Scardina's odious character, not the law.

 

[laughing dog]

So what if the customer was "trapping' Phillips? Either Phillips' refusal was legal or it wasn't. This case will decide it.

It speaks to Scardina's odious character, not the law.

Actually, it speaks to Phillips' odious character.

 

[Metaphor]

So what if the customer was "trapping' Phillips? Either Phillips' refusal was legal or it wasn't. This case will decide it.

It speaks to Scardina's odious character, not the law.

Actually, it speaks to Phillips' odious character.

No. Phillips isn't forcing anybody to participate in his beliefs. Phillips isn't dragging anybody to court. Phillips isn't trying to "correct" anybody's "thinking".

Phillips simply does not want to participate in commerce that violates his beliefs. Scardina wants to punish him for that.

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, it speaks to Phillips' odious character.

No. Phillips isn't forcing anybody to participate in his beliefs. Phillips isn't dragging anybody to court. Phillips isn't trying to "correct" anybody's "thinking".

Phillips simply does not want to participate in commerce that violates his beliefs. Scardina wants to punish him for that.

Phillips' beliefs are odious. He got lucky in the first case based on a technicality.

You don't know that Scardina wishes to punish anyone - that is your biased interpretation of facts you got from a very biased source (Fox News).

 

[Rhea]

Phillips did not refuse to sell a cake to somebody because that person was transgender.

You don’t actually know that, tho.

He refused to make a cake with a colour symbology specifically chosen to 'celebrate' gender transition.

This is weird. Are you saying that if the transgender person went in, and picked a cake off the shelf, and then declared, “this color specifically celebrates my anal love to my trans husband!” Then it would be okay for the baker to suddenly realize that color is evil and refuse to sell? Because suddenly the colors mean something?

That would be illegal


Meh. This complaint is all a farce. The cake wasn’t even meant to have any writing. It was just colors. It was just a man being a bigot and wanting to refuse to serve a trans person and that ends up being against the law in his state.

 

[Metaphor]

Phillips' beliefs are odious.

It is not odious to believe that men cannot become women. Believing facts is not odious.

You don't know that Scardina wishes to punish anyone - that is your biased interpretation of facts you got from a very biased source (Fox News).

It's based on the timeline of Scardina's actions and her own, quoted verbatim, words.

 

[Metaphor]

You don’t actually know that, tho.

Yet many on this thread, including you, have already expressed that you know what he did was illegal, because what he (allegedly) did was refuse to sell to a trans person because they were trans.

This is weird. Are you saying that if the transgender person went in, and picked a cake off the shelf, and then declared, “this color specifically celebrates my anal love to my trans husband!” Then it would be okay for the baker to suddenly realize that color is evil and refuse to sell? Because suddenly the colors mean something?

No.

These are not 'off the shelf' cakes bought from a factory. If Scardina had come in, bought an 'off the shelf' cake with said colours and said to Phillips 'these colours are perfect for my gender transition celebration cake and that's what I'm going to make it', and then Phillips had refused to sell it to her, the case might be different. It would depend on whether it is legal to discriminate in selling goods if you believe they are to go to a specific purpose that you dislike.

If he had said "I'm not selling you that cake or any cake from my shop because you are transgender", then that would be a case of not serving Scardina because she is trans.

Finally, there is a very important difference between choosing an off the shelf cake and imbuing your own symbolism on it, and forcing a cake-maker to make a cake with specific symbology that you know the cake-maker does not agree with and making it explicit that that is exactly what you are doing to the cake maker.

Meh. This complaint is all a farce. The cake wasn’t even meant to have any writing. It was just colors. It was just a man being a bigot and wanting to refuse to serve a trans person and that ends up being against the law in his state.

You have no evidence that he refused a trans customer for being trans.

If the trans customer had come in and asked for a cake with exactly the same colouring, but instead it was to celebrate a first communion, do you believe Phillips would have refused that customer?

 

[Rhea]

If the trans customer had come in and asked for a cake with exactly the same colouring, but instead it was to celebrate a first communion, do you believe Phillips would have refused that customer?

No idea. Someone would have to come in and test him.

 

[steve_bank]

I would say no.

Say I am an artist with a studio. I sell off he shelf sculptures and take commissions. Anyone regardless of who they are can buy whatever is for sale.

A white supremacism walks in and wants a statue of Hitler, I would decline and can not be made to take the commission.

The question cuts both ways.

What happens if a black owned bakery is asked to make a cake for Neo Nazis?

Same principal: A bakery must offer the same services and products to all customers. So, if a neo-Nazi group wanted a birthday cake celebrating Hitler's birthday, the bakery should bake the cake but can decline to decorate it with any decorations or verbiage it found offensive.

However, there is nothing inherently offensive about a cake which is pink, decorated with blue icing. The bakery could, imo, be compelled to bake such a cake if they advertise that they create custom cakes in colors to suit the customer. However, if the bakery has a set list of cakes in flavors, colors, decoration, and combinations thereof etc. that it sells, it can offer only what is listed in its menu of offerings. It cannot be compelled, for instance, to decorate a cake in such a way as to depict decapitating a puppy, for instance. Or to produce a cake that tastes like sewage or brussel sprouts.

Not an easy question. If I am a contractor I can refuse to take work from anyone, can I not? Should I be forced to take work from anyone who asks?

If it meant going ontp a Neo Nazi property to do some work on a house I'd say no.

 

[Bomb#20]

Hitler killed millions of people. He is one of the most despised humans in history.

The transgender guy/gal never hurt anyone.

I know what the moral answer is.

It is immoral to discriminate. It is immoral to dislike people simply because they are different.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."

- Noam Chomsky​

 

[Bomb#20]

The transgender guy/gal never hurt anyone.

Of course she hurt someone. She hurt Jack Phillips.

 

[Bomb#20]

Phillips did not refuse to sell a cake to somebody because that person was transgender.

You don’t actually know that, tho.

What's your point? Do you object to people saying things they don't know?

It was just a man being a bigot and wanting to refuse to serve a trans person

You don’t actually know that, tho.