Adam Toledo video released

[Loren Pechtel]

The gangs bring in plenty of drugs, they could bring in guns also.

In reality, gun control only applies to the law abiding, we have no hope of disarming the criminals.

In realty, most guns get into the hands of criminals via the legal gun market and lax laws that allow "law abiding good guys with guns" to profit by funneling guns into the grey markets. Thus, in reality, increased regulation on legal gun sales, transfers, registration, and proof of continued possession of all guns bought would massively choke of the illegal gun supply.

But would do nothing about the hundreds of millions of guns already out there. The government could confiscate some but there's no way they would get enough to matter. Ghost guns are already showing up more frequently as the skill level needed to make them is has gone way down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But when he shot him, Adam Toledo was unarmed. Which strongly suggests that the officer acted in haste or recklessly.

"Reaction time".

Look it up. Understand it.

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

Irrelevant. He died because he raised a hand with a gun in it. There's no reaction time involved.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

 

[laughing dog]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

Irrelevant. He died because he raised a hand with a gun in it. There's no reaction time involved.

Um, he had to react to the police and their demands.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

Bullshit. We and you don't know what he was thinking at all because he is not alive to tell us. You can guess, but you cannot know.

 

[zorq]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

Irrelevant. He died because he raised a hand with a gun in it. There's no reaction time involved.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

No he did not raise a hand with a gun in it. There was no gun in his hand when he raised it. He raised an empty hand at the command of a police officer. An action that should have been predicted by the police officer because he was the same officer who gave the command.

The officer SHOULD have known what what was going on because what was going on was a suspect surrendering and obeying all the commands of the police officer.

 

[Rhea]

The gangs bring in plenty of drugs, they could bring in guns also.

In reality, gun control only applies to the law abiding, we have no hope of disarming the criminals.

In realty, most guns get into the hands of criminals via the legal gun market and lax laws that allow "law abiding good guys with guns" to profit by funneling guns into the grey markets. Thus, in reality, increased regulation on legal gun sales, transfers, registration, and proof of continued possession of all guns bought would massively choke of the illegal gun supply.

This is well documented. And you have seen the studies, Loren, because I’ve posted them to you before on this forum.

It is WELL documented that
1) Lax gun sale laws at legal dealers funnels hundred of guns into the trunks of middle men who drive to the city and sell.

But would do nothing about the hundreds of millions of guns already out there. The government could confiscate some but there's no way they would get enough to matter. Ghost guns are already showing up more frequently as the skill level needed to make them is has gone way down.

And
2) Those illegal guns do not have a long street life because once they are used, they are often ditched and another one purchased.

So yes, tightening the gun paper trail and prosecuting violations would reduce this significantly.

 

[Patooka]

So yes, tightening the gun paper trail and prosecuting violations would reduce this significantly.

Well, it can't be much worse:

“If a gun dealer has their records in an excel spreadsheet, and they send it to the tracing center, ATF has to immediately take that spreadsheet and dumb it down so that it can’t be queried by a computer,” Chipman explained. “That is insane.”

The process is also slow.

Troppman said a single gun trace takes a week or more except in the most high-profile cases.

Imagine being pulled over and you have to wait over a week on the side of the road whilst the cop checks your license and registration.

 

[Toni]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

Irrelevant. He died because he raised a hand with a gun in it. There's no reaction time involved.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

Bullshit. You are far, far too wiling to grant every break, every bit of response time to any law enforcement but refuse to recognize the basic humanity of those shot by police, even when they are unarmed and children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Um, he had to react to the police and their demands.

He reacted, just improperly. He was trying to dispose of it stealthily, he didn't realize the cop would be watching his hand and would interpret his action as trying to use the gun.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

Bullshit. We and you don't know what he was thinking at all because he is not alive to tell us. You can guess, but you cannot know.

We know what he did--pitched the gun. It didn't fall at his feet like it would if he had dropped it.

 

[laughing dog]

He reacted, just improperly. He was trying to dispose of it stealthily, he didn't realize the cop would be watching his hand and would interpret his action as trying to use the gun.

Bullshit - you don't what he was trying to do. Clearly Toledo did not realize he was dealing with a trigger-happy officer.

We know what he did--pitched the gun. It didn't fall at his feet like it would if he had dropped it.

That does not mean you know what he meant to do. We are talking about a 13 year old boy in a critical and tense situation with little time to react in a cold rational manner. You know - the very situation you use to defend the actions of the trained and experienced adult who killed the unarmed child.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

Irrelevant. He died because he raised a hand with a gun in it. There's no reaction time involved.

In hindsight we know he was trying to ditch the gun, but the cop couldn't know that at the time he had to make his decision.

No he did not raise a hand with a gun in it. There was no gun in his hand when he raised it. He raised an empty hand at the command of a police officer. An action that should have been predicted by the police officer because he was the same officer who gave the command.

The officer SHOULD have known what what was going on because what was going on was a suspect surrendering and obeying all the commands of the police officer.

Observations:

1) -.8 seconds: Gun in his hand at his side.

2) Gun found not at his feet.

3) 0 seconds: Hands raised and empty.

Observe:

1) The gun received a horizontal impulse.

2) This is not shock from being shot as his hands were empty at that point.

Conclusion:

He imparted the horizontal impulse to the gun. That can only be done by moving his arm while holding the gun.

Thus: He moved his arm while still holding the gun.

 

[Patooka]

Loren, you appear to be tip-toeing around the issue that a 13 year showed better fire discipline than a trained allegedly competent law enforcement officer. And that the first instinct of said law enforcement was to exaggerate events despite body camera footage stating otherwise. What would have been the official story if that camera footage didn't exist?

That last question was rhetorical by the way. Anyone who has been paying attention knows the fucking answer to that one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This is well documented. And you have seen the studies, Loren, because I’ve posted them to you before on this forum.

It is WELL documented that
1) Lax gun sale laws at legal dealers funnels hundred of guns into the trunks of middle men who drive to the city and sell.

But would do nothing about the hundreds of millions of guns already out there. The government could confiscate some but there's no way they would get enough to matter. Ghost guns are already showing up more frequently as the skill level needed to make them is has gone way down.

And
2) Those illegal guns do not have a long street life because once they are used, they are often ditched and another one purchased.

So yes, tightening the gun paper trail and prosecuting violations would reduce this significantly.

Even if we shut the tap off entirely there's nothing we can do about an awful lot of the guns out there. There's not that many used in crime to use them up.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So yes, tightening the gun paper trail and prosecuting violations would reduce this significantly.

Well, it can't be much worse:

“If a gun dealer has their records in an excel spreadsheet, and they send it to the tracing center, ATF has to immediately take that spreadsheet and dumb it down so that it can’t be queried by a computer,” Chipman explained. “That is insane.”

The process is also slow.

Troppman said a single gun trace takes a week or more except in the most high-profile cases.

Imagine being pulled over and you have to wait over a week on the side of the road whilst the cop checks your license and registration.

Note that the law doesn't even permit this--those records were required by law to be destroyed.

As for such registries: We used to have a handgun registry here--no nonsense with it being on paper, either. It got ditched when it became known that it had never helped the police. Crime guns aren't registered!

 

[barbos]

Loren, you appear to be tip-toeing around the issue that a 13 year showed better fire discipline than a trained allegedly competent law enforcement officer.

You must mean gang's gun discipline - ditch the gun before being arrested.

 

[zorq]

No he did not raise a hand with a gun in it. There was no gun in his hand when he raised it. He raised an empty hand at the command of a police officer. An action that should have been predicted by the police officer because he was the same officer who gave the command.

The officer SHOULD have known what what was going on because what was going on was a suspect surrendering and obeying all the commands of the police officer.

Observations:

1) -.8 seconds: Gun in his hand at his side.

2) Gun found not at his feet.

3) 0 seconds: Hands raised and empty.

Observe:

1) The gun received a horizontal impulse.

2) This is not shock from being shot as his hands were empty at that point.

Conclusion:

He imparted the horizontal impulse to the gun. That can only be done by moving his arm while holding the gun.

Thus: He moved his arm while still holding the gun.

Notice scholars here where Loren redefines the English language and the rules of geometry so that the word "raises" now means "moves horizontally." I expect dictionaries and high school text books to reflect this change in immediate revisions to be published this year!

Dear Loren, I double dog dare you to raise your arms without imparting some horizontal movement to them. If you happen to be successful, I recommend visiting a hospital immediately so as to have a surgeon attempt reattachment.

Still no comment on how the officer should have predicted and expected the boy's movements (as captured on camera for us all to see) based on his instruction to "Show me your fuckin' hands"?

 

[zorq]

Well, it can't be much worse:



Imagine being pulled over and you have to wait over a week on the side of the road whilst the cop checks your license and registration.

Note that the law doesn't even permit this--those records were required by law to be destroyed.

As for such registries: We used to have a handgun registry here--no nonsense with it being on paper, either. It got ditched when it became known that it had never helped the police. Crime guns aren't registered!

Or the converse: Registered guns are less likely to be used in crimes or illegally sold to criminals! Thank the Republicans for that brainiac move too.

 

[Derec]

Notice scholars here where Loren redefines the English language and the rules of geometry so that the word "raises" now means "moves horizontally."

How does he do that?

Dear Loren, I double dog dare you to raise your arms without imparting some horizontal movement to them. If you happen to be successful, I recommend visiting a hospital immediately so as to have a surgeon attempt reattachment.

It is pretty trivial to raise your hands vertically. Sure, your elbows move horizontally, but that's not going to impart any horizontal impulse to an object in your hands. And that's the issue here. Adam did not just drop the gun, he threw it behind the fence, most likely deliberately. Roman probably told him to ditch it if he can when he gave him the gun, and he tried to do just that.
What Adam should have done is dropped the gun before he moved his hands.

Still no comment on how the officer should have predicted and expected the boy's movements (as captured on camera for us all to see) based on his instruction to "Show me your fuckin' hands"?

I don't know. It was a fucked up situation that turned on what happened within 832 ms. Adam could have dropped the gun before he took of running. He could have dropped, not thrown, the gun when he stopped running.

By the way, a somewhat similar situation happened in DC last year. One Deon Kay, 18. He also threw the gun away and the cop interpreted the motion as raising the gun to fire. He threw it ~90 ft too. Major difference is that in the Adam Toledo case visibility was much poorer because it was at night.

 

[Derec]

Bullshit - you don't what he was trying to do.

We cannot read minds but we can draw reasonable inferences from his behavior.

hat does not mean you know what he meant to do. We are talking about a 13 year old boy in a critical and tense situation with little time to react in a cold rational manner. You know - the very situation you use to defend the actions of the trained and experienced adult who killed the unarmed child.

He ran for half a football field. He could have easily dropped the gun when he saw the cops. Or at any time during his 50m dash. Instead he waited to throw the gun while he was turning around. Stupid mistake, and one that cost him his life.

 

[Derec]

Bullshit. You are far, far too wiling to grant every break, every bit of response time to any law enforcement but refuse to recognize the basic humanity of those shot by police, even when they are unarmed and children.

Who is denying his humanity? However, it is a lie to claim that he was unarmed.
And the issue of reaction times is a real one.

 

[Derec]

No he did not raise a hand with a gun in it. There was no gun in his hand when he raised it. He raised an empty hand at the command of a police officer. An action that should have been predicted by the police officer because he was the same officer who gave the command.

The officer SHOULD have known what what was going on because what was going on was a suspect surrendering and obeying all the commands of the police officer.

The fact is that Adam did not just drop the gun where the cop could perhaps see him dropping it. He tossed it behind the fence. And he had it at least 832 ms before the shot was fired.
You are expecting the officer to be some superhuman RoboCop, but that's not reality. And even a RoboCop would have finite reaction times.

Note also the cop only fired once. That is consistent with the fact that he did not fire again once he was able to register that Adam's hands were empty and recall sending a "fire" command to the hand.