Adam Toledo video released

[TomC]

Is there any Data making a comparison to how many times Police have used deadly force VS how many times deadly force was used against the police? I'm thinking how proactive officers are at protecting themselves then said data (if it exists) should show an overwhelming amount of force being used against the police.

I doubt that there's meaningful data about this.

Policing isn't a terribly dangerous job, landscapers have a higher rate of injury and death.
But they have a ton of advantages over criminals. Far better training, communication, organization, and equipment.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is so important. Police have this stupid Hollywood-Drill-Sargeant habit of SHOUT-SHOUT-SHOUT-SCREAM and they give conflicting instructions and they work themselves all into a froth that they loose track of their ability to gauge time and they expect humans to respond thoughtfully while the police are jacking up the atmosphee of fear and anxiety.

It’s stupid. It just insanely stupid. As any social worker or nurse, anyone who deals with people and not just charactatures, whether ramping up the anxiety and expecting calm response is a professional response. And they will tell you, “are you an idiot? Of course not! You are going to get the opposite of solutions, you are creating more problems.”

Yet the police still think they’re in a fucking Hollywood Basic Training scene and might makes right so whoever has the loudest screech is the most powerful.

It can cause a problem when multiple officers are doing it but the reason they do it is simple: It works. If they were nice and friendly like you want they would be having to shoot more often.

Bullshit. We have hundreds of thousands of incidents from all over the world that indicates you're wrong (again).

In Loren's defense, the rest of the First world isn't saturated with guns. So there is a greater danger. The irony is that Loren supports gun saturation... and then uses gun saturation as a defense for police being quick to fire.

 

[TomC]

Bullshit. We have hundreds of thousands of incidents from all over the world that indicates you're wrong (again).

In Loren's defense, the rest of the First world isn't saturated with guns. So there is a greater danger. The irony is that Loren supports gun saturation... and then uses gun saturation as a defense for police being quick to fire.

I don't think it's just the guns.

USA culture is flat out more violence prone than other First World cultures. The guns are more like a symptom. But Canadians own a ton of guns. They don't have the same violence issues we do.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Bullshit. We have hundreds of thousands of incidents from all over the world that indicates you're wrong (again).

In Loren's defense, the rest of the First world isn't saturated with guns. So there is a greater danger. The irony is that Loren supports gun saturation... and then uses gun saturation as a defense for police being quick to fire.

I don't think it's just the guns.

USA culture is flat out more violence prone than other First World cultures. The guns are more like a symptom. But Canadians own a ton of guns. They don't have the same violence issues we do.
Tom

Canada ranks high in gun ownership, but still 30% the US per capita. The US is the only country that has more guns than people.

 

[TomC]

I don't think it's just the guns.

USA culture is flat out more violence prone than other First World cultures. The guns are more like a symptom. But Canadians own a ton of guns. They don't have the same violence issues we do.
Tom

Canada ranks high in gun ownership, but still 30% the US per capita. The US is the only country that has more guns than people.

Why do you suppose that is? I'm saying it's because USA culture is more violence prone.
Are you disagreeing?
Tom

 

[Gun Nut]

I normally take the side of relatively innocent blacks

Relative to what? Are you applying a form of affirmative action to black people... like if a white person flees from police with a gun in their hand, it's ok to shoot, but not if it is a black person running?
Or is it OK that a white person gets shot by a cop for no reason as long as there are pictures of him acting thugish (posing with guns and stacks of cash), but if it is a black person then he is still a sweet little boy-father regardless of thug-like posturing? Because RELATIVELY SPEAKING, he's a sweet angel?

RELATIVE TO WHO???

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don't think it's just the guns.

USA culture is flat out more violence prone than other First World cultures. The guns are more like a symptom. But Canadians own a ton of guns. They don't have the same violence issues we do.
Tom

Canada ranks high in gun ownership, but still 30% the US per capita. The US is the only country that has more guns than people.

Why do you suppose that is?

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.

I'm saying it's because USA culture is more violence prone.

What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

 

[Gun Nut]

meh, just like the evading arrest issue...he was ordered to show his hands not disarm...but they were chasing a child who didn't have a weapon

What do you mean he did not have a weapon?
Video clearly shows him throwing a gun just before being shot.
Apparently older boy handed him a gun so he can't be caught with it. I think older boy should be prosecuted with murder or something. There should be harsh punishment for involving 13 year olds with crime.

That is how it works in gangs that frequently commit violent crimes. The lowest ranking members of the gang (generally the youngest) are given murder weapons, drugs, and anything else of low monetary value but high risk, to transport / hide / alter. Handing the kid the gun was likely a reflex - the "right" thing to do as soon as the cops showed up, according to their own code of conduct, so to speak.

 

[Trausti]

Why do you suppose that is?

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.

I'm saying it's because USA culture is more violence prone.

What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

 

[ronburgundy]

This is well documented. And you have seen the studies, Loren, because I’ve posted them to you before on this forum.

It is WELL documented that
1) Lax gun sale laws at legal dealers funnels hundred of guns into the trunks of middle men who drive to the city and sell.

But would do nothing about the hundreds of millions of guns already out there. The government could confiscate some but there's no way they would get enough to matter. Ghost guns are already showing up more frequently as the skill level needed to make them is has gone way down.

And
2) Those illegal guns do not have a long street life because once they are used, they are often ditched and another one purchased.

So yes, tightening the gun paper trail and prosecuting violations would reduce this significantly.

Even if we shut the tap off entirely there's nothing we can do about an awful lot of the guns out there. There's not that many used in crime to use them up.

The fact that so many new guns enter the grey and black markets every day proves that the existing guns already in the hands of criminals are insufficient to maintain current levels of gun violence. Thus, eliminating the flow of new guns into those market will definitively result in a large and ever increasing reduction in gun violence. In principle, a gun may physically last a long time, but crime guns do not. Among other things, once a gun has been illegally used, especially after being fired, it is often discarded. A large % of crime guns recovered were manufactured within the past few years.

 

[Gospel]

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.
What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

Crime rates probably dropped during the great depression & recession because criminals knew (or thought) nobody had anything of which to steal. Just sayin.

 

[TomC]

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.
What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

Can you back that statement up with something more substantial than your personal opinions?
Tom

 

[Trausti]

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.
What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

Can you back that statement up with something more substantial than your personal opinions?
Tom

Go to Duckduckgo. Type in “crime drop during great recession.” Read.

 

[Trausti]

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.
What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

Crime rates probably dropped during the great depression & recession because criminals knew (or thought) nobody had anything of which to steal. Just sayin.

Point is that poverty or economics is not a significant cause of crime.

 

[TomC]

Gun sales sky rocketed during the Obama Administration. That wasn't because of a response to violence and self-defense purchases. A good deal of firearm purchases is through paranoia, both of liberals and Big Bad Government.
What about a culture makes it violence prone? The US suffers from racial inequity and still refuses to deal with the existing problems from Jim Crow. This resultant poverty always leads to higher crime levels. And the NRA has helped ensure a steady flow of guns to those in poverty. The US economic engine has strained the workforce greatly, making it extraordinarily difficult to make ends meet, to get out of poverty. And there has been a great deal of animosity created by the GOP since Nixon to keep up barriers against African Americans, and ignore the ones that are keeping them back.

Crime rates dropped during the Great Depression and the Great Recession. Poverty does not lead to more crime.

Crime rates probably dropped during the great depression & recession because criminals knew (or thought) nobody had anything of which to steal. Just sayin.

Then there's the possibility that crime rates increased, but crime reports stopped being recorded.

Or what was considered a crime worth reporting was changed because petty crime skyrocketed.

Hard to say what happened, almost a century ago.

Tom

 

[Trausti]

Crime rates probably dropped during the great depression & recession because criminals knew (or thought) nobody had anything of which to steal. Just sayin.

Then there's the possibility that crime rates increased, but crime reports stopped being recorded.

Or what was considered a crime worth reporting was changed because petty crime skyrocketed.

Hard to say what happened, almost a century ago.

Tom

The Great Recession was a decade ago.

 

[TomC]

Crime rates probably dropped during the great depression & recession because criminals knew (or thought) nobody had anything of which to steal. Just sayin.

Then there's the possibility that crime rates increased, but crime reports stopped being recorded.

Or what was considered a crime worth reporting was changed because petty crime skyrocketed.

Hard to say what happened, almost a century ago.

Tom

The Great Recession was a decade ago.

And the Bush administration probably didn't want skyrocketing crime rates on their list of things to explain to the voting public.

My point stands.
Tom

 

[Trausti]

The Great Recession was a decade ago.

And the Bush administration probably didn't want skyrocketing crime rates on their list of things to explain to the voting public.

My point stands.
Tom

Wut? Not sure what your point is. What role would Bush have in compiling data for the NYPD annual crime report? Are you saying he massaged the FBI data while Obama was in office? (Great Recession was ‘07 to ‘10)

 

[TomC]

Not sure what your point is.

Here's my point. The government can massage statistics when it's convenient.

You claimed that crime went down during economically bad times. Feel free to support that claim.
Tom

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't think it's just the guns.

USA culture is flat out more violence prone than other First World cultures. The guns are more like a symptom. But Canadians own a ton of guns. They don't have the same violence issues we do.
Tom

Canada ranks high in gun ownership, but still 30% the US per capita. The US is the only country that has more guns than people.

Why do you suppose that is? I'm saying it's because USA culture is more violence prone.
Are you disagreeing?
Tom

No, it's b/c very few guns in Canada are handguns. 95% of gun owners in Canada own hunting rifles, while only 12% own a handgun. And since only 26% of Canadian household's have any type of gun, that means only 3% (12% of 26%) have a handgun.

The overall crime rate in Canada is only slightly lower than the US, and US about equal to France, UK, Sweden, and Italy.


Canada actually has a higher rate of violent assault than the US, which is lower than many European countries. The US is not especially criminal or violent. It is merely far far more heavily armed with the kinds of guns designed for and ideal for killing other people in close proximity. Thus, when crimes and violent interactions happen, they are far more likely to result in serious injury and death.