Adam Toledo video released

[Derec]

Fishing is right up there on the danger and lethality scale. Yet, millions do it for fun. So what?

Commercial fishing is a very different ballgame than leisure fishing.

In any case, none of that has a bearing on the fact that policing is still a very dangerous profession.

 

[Derec]

You mean they have the advantage of doing things literally as if their lives depend on it.

Wait, are you now defending thugs attacking police?
Is it ok when a woman (ride-or-die, by the looks of it) rammed a police officer who was chasing a man (presumably her boyfriend)?

Records: Trooper was running after suspect when woman ran over him, told suspect 'get in!'

Her life did not depend on this. In fact, she put her life in danger by doing it.

As the dog said to its master when chastised for letting the rabbit get away,
"The rabbit was running for its life. I was running for my dinner."

Ah, those poor, poor thugs. Cry me a river!

 

[Rhea]

policing is still a very dangerous profession.

Factually, it is only half as dangerous as you think. Of all the cops who die on the job, about half are killed feloniously. The other half crash their cars.

According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/p...forcement-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty

The moral of the story; if you want to live, do not be a male cop in the south.
(Translation: do not be an aggressive domineering person in a place when guns are freely permitted?)

 

[laughing dog]

It is more relevant than all of your ex poste apolgia.

Wrong.

Hand-waved nonsense. No matter how you much you want to obscure it, the fact is that Adam Toledo was unarmed when the bullet hit him. The officer did not give himself sufficient time.

Ride into white knight? What are you blathering about now?

You responded to my question in post 69 to another poster about his ridiculous comment with babble about recruitment by adults.

 

[repoman]

Not saying this in a flippant way since there was a loss of life for such a young kid, but someone needs to do a "choose your own adventure" for the cop and what he should have done instead of what he did do at each time stamp of the video.

As time went forward in this interaction the suboptimal decisions he made piled up.

This was not a case of suicide by cop via pointing a gun or a suspect actually trying to kill the cop to escape. And lots of those happen and need to be accounted for separately from these slow motion disasters that one would hope a cop would not help to make worse. Even if making it worse was not from a place of being an asshole.

Something like "Hey, slow down don't move", "slowly put your hands out to the side and drop the gun. lift your hands over your head, lock your hands together and walk away from your gun"

If the officer had done that and slowed everything down and then the suspect raised his hands super fast not at his request then I could understand him shooting. But he told the suspect to make a rapid motion that with the fluke of trying to stupidly side toss the gun engaged the cop's automatic threat detection raised the stakes to a fatal level. Sort of like how the batter has to start swinging before he knows what exactly the pitch is.

If the officer knew or suspected he had a gun, why would he demand instant showing of his hands?

He knows what his reaction time is so he has to control the situation (if possible with a complaint suspect) to not test it dangerously.



I know, easy for me to say not being a cop, but this is just depressing.

 

[Derec]

My eldest brother joked growing up that, based on family size and my father’s income, we were in poverty. And based on the federal definition at that time we were. Yet, we didn’t rob the corner market, assault strangers, or break into the neighbor’s house.

Which is logically identical to arguing "My uncle smoked a 2 packs of cigarettes every day for 50 years and didn't die of lung cancer, so smoking plays no significant causal role in lung cancer. "

No, it isn't. Getting cancer is not a choice one makes. Robbing somebody, or shooting at random cars, etc. is a free choice some people make. And "poverty" is no excuse for that.

 

[Derec]

Factually, it is only half as dangerous as you think. Of all the cops who die on the job, about half are killed feloniously. The other half crash their cars.

According to statistics reported to the FBI, 89 law enforcement officers were killed in line-of-duty incidents in 2019. Of these, 48 officers died as a result of felonious acts, and 41 officers died in accidents.

I never claimed police officers do not get accidentally injured/killed as well. Any job where you drive a lot will have that.
That still a many orders of magnitude difference in the ratio of murder (or assault) to accidental death (or injury) compared with most other dangerous jobs. Very few commercial fishermen or roofers get murdered on the job.

The moral of the story; if you want to live, do not be a male cop in the south.
(Translation: do not be an aggressive domineering person in a place when guns are freely permitted?)

Or a 13 year old gang banger in Chicago.

 

[Derec]

Hand-waved nonsense. No matter how you much you want to obscure it, the fact is that Adam Toledo was unarmed when the bullet hit him. The officer did not give himself sufficient time.

It is irrelevant that he was unarmed when the bullet hit him. What is relevant whether he was armed when the police officer made a decision to shoot. And at that point, Adam was not only armed but also raising his weapon.
And Adam was not shot soon after police pulled up. Adam was running for half a football field and could have decided to drop the gun at any point. Instead, he decided to ditch it while turning around and raising it. Stupid.

You responded to my question in post 69 to another poster about his ridiculous comment with babble about recruitment by adults.

Still don't know what that has with a mounted warrior class. In any case, Adam being recruited into a gang is very relevant to this case, as it was a gang member Ruben Roman who put a gun into his hands.

 

[laughing dog]

Hand-waved nonsense. No matter how you much you want to obscure it, the fact is that Adam Toledo was unarmed when the bullet hit him. The officer did not give himself sufficient time.

It is irrelevant that he was unarmed when the bullet hit him. What is relevant whether he was armed when the police officer made a decision to shoot. And at that point, Adam was not only armed but also raising his weapon.

I realize you are desperate to defend the police shooting a black child. But Adam Toledo was not armed when he died. The police officer hastily shot him. No amount of your apologia changes that reality.

Do I think this officer will suffer a loss of his job or criminal charges? No.
Do I think he should lose his job? Yes.
Do I think he should face criminal charges? At this point, I am on the fence.

Still don't know what that has with a mounted warrior class. In any case, Adam being recruited into a gang is very relevant to this case, as it was a gang member Ruben Roman who put a gun into his hands.

Wow, babbling a defense of a babbled interjection into a discussion is a new one.

 

[none]

Hand-waved nonsense. No matter how you much you want to obscure it, the fact is that Adam Toledo was unarmed when the bullet hit him. The officer did not give himself sufficient time.

It is irrelevant that he was unarmed when the bullet hit him. What is relevant whether he was armed when the police officer made a decision to shoot.

please do tell how the decision to shoot was informed.

 

[Derec]

I realize you are desperate to defend the police shooting a black child.

I realize you are desperate to attack a police officer.
By the way, Adam Toledo was not even black, but a white hispanic. Same hue as George Zimmermann.

But Adam Toledo was not armed when he died. The police officer hastily shot him. No amount of your apologia changes that reality.

He raised his weapon as he was turning around. The officer did not have the luxury of waiting to see if he was raising it to fire or raising it to throw it. Similar to what happened with Deon Kay in DC.

As to haste, Adam led the officer on a half a football field foot chase. The officer only fired when the suspect was turning around while raising the weapon.

Do I think this officer will suffer a loss of his job or criminal charges? No.
Do I think he should lose his job? Yes.
Do I think he should face criminal charges? At this point, I am on the fence.

What for? For not having RoboCop reaction times?

Wow, babbling a defense of a babbled interjection into a discussion is a new one.

You are the one babbling!

 

[none]

I realize you are desperate to attack a police officer.
By the way, Adam Toledo was not even black, but a white hispanic. Same hue as George Zimmermann.


He raised his weapon as he was turning around. The officer did not have the luxury of waiting to see if he was raising it to fire or raising it to throw it. Similar to what happened with Deon Kay in DC.

As to haste, Adam led the officer on a half a football field foot chase. The officer only fired when the suspect was turning around while raising the weapon.

Do I think this officer will suffer a loss of his job or criminal charges? No.
Do I think he should lose his job? Yes.
Do I think he should face criminal charges? At this point, I am on the fence.

What for? For not having RoboCop reaction times?

Wow, babbling a defense of a babbled interjection into a discussion is a new one.

You are the one babbling!

how was the decision to shoot informed?

 

[Derec]

please do tell how the decision to shoot was informed.

I can't read minds, but presumably the officer decided to fire because the suspect was turning around while raising his weapon.

 

[laughing dog]

I realize you are desperate to attack a police officer.

It is babble to claim that accurately describing the situation is an attack.

He raised his weapon as he was turning around. The officer did not have the luxury of waiting to see if he was raising it to fire or raising it to throw it.

Of course he did.

What for? For not having RoboCop reaction times?

More babble.

You are the one babbling!

Ah, the "no u r" deflection.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No he did not raise a hand with a gun in it. There was no gun in his hand when he raised it. He raised an empty hand at the command of a police officer. An action that should have been predicted by the police officer because he was the same officer who gave the command.

The officer SHOULD have known what what was going on because what was going on was a suspect surrendering and obeying all the commands of the police officer.

Observations:

1) -.8 seconds: Gun in his hand at his side.

2) Gun found not at his feet.

3) 0 seconds: Hands raised and empty.

Observe:

1) The gun received a horizontal impulse.

2) This is not shock from being shot as his hands were empty at that point.

Conclusion:

He imparted the horizontal impulse to the gun. That can only be done by moving his arm while holding the gun.

Thus: He moved his arm while still holding the gun.

Notice scholars here where Loren redefines the English language and the rules of geometry so that the word "raises" now means "moves horizontally." I expect dictionaries and high school text books to reflect this change in immediate revisions to be published this year!

Dear Loren, I double dog dare you to raise your arms without imparting some horizontal movement to them. If you happen to be successful, I recommend visiting a hospital immediately so as to have a surgeon attempt reattachment.

Still no comment on how the officer should have predicted and expected the boy's movements (as captured on camera for us all to see) based on his instruction to "Show me your fuckin' hands"?

It's hanging at his side in the -.8 second frame. It's impossible to impart a horizontal motion from that position without also raising your hands somewhat. You're missing the key factor: the sequence of events absolutely requires him to have moved his hands before releasing the gun. And that's exactly what caused the cop to fire--he saw the gun hand moving, still holding the gun.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, it can't be much worse:



Imagine being pulled over and you have to wait over a week on the side of the road whilst the cop checks your license and registration.

Note that the law doesn't even permit this--those records were required by law to be destroyed.

As for such registries: We used to have a handgun registry here--no nonsense with it being on paper, either. It got ditched when it became known that it had never helped the police. Crime guns aren't registered!

Or the converse: Registered guns are less likely to be used in crimes or illegally sold to criminals! Thank the Republicans for that brainiac move too.

The registry didn't do anything to prevent selling a gun you own. You weren't required to report sales and you weren't required to report continued possession. You registered it once when you obtained it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doesn’t reaction time also apply to 13 year old boys?

How would that apply in this case? Adam had a gun - which is something he wasn't supposed to have - in his hand 832 ms before the officer fired.
What was the officer doing 832 ms earlier that caused Adam to react poorly?
Note, it takes a lot longer to run half a football field than that. He chose to do that. He could have dropped the gun as soon as he saw the cop pull up. Or at any time during his 50m dash. He played chicken and lost.

Now think how the officer feels. He killed a 13 year old. He must feel truly horrible about that no matter the circumstances, no matter that - as far as I can see - he did nothing wrong.

Disagree--I don't believe he was playing chicken. He knew he was doing something illegal, he tried to flee. When it became obvious that wasn't working he tried to ditch the gun. He didn't realize how deadly the rules of the game were, that the cop was going to react to the quick movement of the gun. He didn't realize the cop would be focusing on the gun and see the motion.

He is a victim in all this, but his killer is the gang.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Even if we shut the tap off entirely there's nothing we can do about an awful lot of the guns out there. There's not that many used in crime to use them up.

In a United States where possession of small arms is made illegal tomorrow, your contention is few if anyone would turn in their firearms? My contention is if your average Joe with family, mortgage, yada, yada, yada, knew keeping a gun in the house could get him a mandatory minimum of three years in prison and all that goes with it, lose his job, house, yada, yada, yada, we'd easily get the majority of firearms in this country turned in for destruction. It would take three to five years to clean up the ones held by criminals. I mean, sooner or later they are going to try and use it in the commission of a crime, right?

The lowest estimate I have seen for guns in the US is upwards of 300 million. I have also seen a reasonable case for 600 million.

Lets suppose you get 90% of them by making them illegal. (And I think that's optimistic.) That leaves 30-60 million in criminal hands. It will take the police a long time to get rid of those, by which time small workshops will be turning them out for criminals if they have no better source.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Adam Toledo was unarmed when he was shot. Why you feel the need to obfuscate that indisputable fact is truly fascinating.

Adam Toledo was armed less than 1 second before he was shot. Why you feel the need to obfuscate that indisputable fact is truly fascinating.

 

[none]

please do tell how the decision to shoot was informed.

I can't read minds, but presumably the officer decided to fire because the suspect was turning around while raising his weapon.

because the objective for the police is to shoot unarmed people?