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Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

As I heard the story, yeah, she did have to sue to buy a cake there.

You'd be wrong.

Phillips didn't object to a pink and blue cake.

He didn't object to a customer who was trans.

He objected to the message a sleazy lawyer put on the cake.

Scardina could have gotten her cake from Phillips or a hundred other places.<clip>

Tom

There was no message on the cake.

Correct.
Which is why Phillips didn't object until a sleazy lawyer put the message on the cake. "It's for my trans celebration party". Scardina didn't want a celebration cake,<clip>
Tom
 
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There was no message on the cake.

Correct.
Which is why Phillips didn't object until a sleazy lawyer put the message on the cake. "It's for my trans celebration party". Scardina didn't want a celebration cake, <clip>
Tom

That's what happens when you discriminate against people for stupid shit.
 
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There was no message on the cake.

Correct.
Which is why Phillips didn't object until a sleazy lawyer put the message on the cake. "It's for my trans celebration party". Scardina didn't want a celebration cake,<clip>
Tom

That's what happens when you discriminate against people for stupid shit.

Show me where Phillips discriminated against a person.

I don't think you can.
Tom
 
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You want to make believe that since George Washington stuck around it means he agreed to George III's laws of the land, you go right ahead.

I don't get your point, George III to my knowledge tried to hold ole George Washington to an agreement they had. George Washington didn't like that agreement and.... well ya know America happened.
Ahh, that must be what accounts for all those 18th-century coins that keep turning up with George III's face on them, that say "By Grace of an Agreement with His Subjects, King".

So you're saying George Washington's America is now George III's America and the Baker is George Washington trying to Make America Great again? If so I can understand that, nutty AF but I understand it.
Where do you get this stuff? I'm challenging your goofy metaphysical claim that sticking around in a country constitutes an agreement. That's as ridiculous as if you claimed me scratching my ear constitutes bidding on your painting. Why the bejesus would the Baker have to be another George Washington in order for me to regard all that mush-headed drivel in civics class about "social contracts" and "consent of the governed" the same way I regard the mush-headed drivel in churches about Jesus dying for my sins?
 
You said it yourself, "It's for my trans celebration party".

Which is different.
Tom

The cake conveys no message. When told what the cake was for, the baker refused. He's discriminating against the trans person.

Nope. That's just flat out wrong.

Phillips would have made a pink and blue cake for anybody.

He'd have made any cake for a trans person.

He objected to making a cake, any design and any customer, with that particular message.

It's not the person or the cake. Scardina knew that.<clip>
Tom
 
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The cake conveys no message. When told what the cake was for, the baker refused. He's discriminating against the trans person.

Nope. That's just flat out wrong.

Phillips would have made a pink and blue cake for anybody.

He'd have made any cake for a trans person.

He objected to making a cake, any design and any customer, with that particular message.

It's not the person or the cake. Scardina knew that. <clip>
Tom

He doesn't believe in the message. He's blocking someone else's message because the mere idea that trans identity can be celebrated triggers his bigoted bones.
 
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The cake conveys no message. When told what the cake was for, the baker refused. He's discriminating against the trans person.

Nope. That's just flat out wrong.

Phillips would have made a pink and blue cake for anybody.

He'd have made any cake for a trans person.

He objected to making a cake, any design and any customer, with that particular message.

It's not the person or the cake. Scardina knew that. <clip>
Tom

So, I'm just going to say it, "xer" is a slur as you use it. There is no indication Scardinia identifies that way. If you don't know the way to identify someone with an unknown gender, "they/them" is the generally accepted way.

You are bullying towards someone who you dislike.

The laws in Texas outlawed anyone from fucking someone else in the ass. They objected to anyone having anal intercourse.

Refusing (that which a specific group selectively asks for within the general class of services or acts, specifically) is a long standing, textbook example of discrimination against (group). In fact that may be one of the bullet point definitions. It's one I would certainly nominate.
 
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So, I'm just going to say it, "xer" is a slur as you use it.

That's exactly how I mean it.

Similarly, [MENTION=130]ZiprHead[/MENTION]; keeps saying things that I don't like. I'm gay. He's not. That makes him a homophobe.

Right?
Tom
 
The cake conveys no message. When told what the cake was for, the baker refused. He's discriminating against the trans person.

Nope. That's just flat out wrong.

Phillips would have made a pink and blue cake for anybody.

He'd have made any cake for a trans person.

He objected to making a cake, any design and any customer, with that particular message.


It's not the person or the cake. Scardina knew that. <clip>
Tom

The cake conveys no message. The trans person conveyed the message.
 
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So, I'm just going to say it, "xer" is a slur as you use it.

That's exactly how I mean it.

Similarly, [MENTION=130]ZiprHead[/MENTION]; keeps saying things that I don't like. I'm gay. He's not. That makes him a homophobe.

Right?
Tom

This makes absolutely no sense at all.
 
He doesn't believe in the message. He's blocking someone else's message because the mere idea that trans identity can be celebrated triggers his bigoted bones.
Phillips isn't blocking anybody's message. He'd have made the cake for anyone.

Scardina needed to put the message on the cake in order to get the lawsuit. And that's what happened.
Tom
 
He doesn't believe in the message. He's blocking someone else's message because the mere idea that trans identity can be celebrated triggers his bigoted bones.
Phillips isn't blocking anybody's message. He'd have made the cake for anyone.

Scardina needed to put the message on the cake in order to get the lawsuit. And that's what happened.
Tom

Nobody put any massage on the cake. Why do you keep saying that?
 
He doesn't believe in the message. He's blocking someone else's message because the mere idea that trans identity can be celebrated triggers his bigoted bones.
Phillips isn't blocking anybody's message. He'd have made the cake for anyone.

Scardina needed to put the message on the cake in order to get the lawsuit. And that's what happened.
Tom

Nobody put any massage on the cake. Why do you keep saying that?

It's the message Scardina conveyed to Phillips that he objected to, nothing else.

Why do keep saying differently?
Tom
 
Bomb #20, I'm willing to change my mind on this issue however it's a simple issue of my failing to understand your challenge to my "metaphysics". The baker registered to do business and agreed to the discrimination laws of the state.
You've made two separate and distinct arguments for the baker having entered an agreement with the state:

(1) that everyone who sticks around is subject to and agrees to the laws of the land, and the baker sticks around; and

(2) that he agreed to the discrimination laws of the state in exchange for a business license when he registered to do business.​

You understand that those aren't the same argument, right? It's argument (1) that I'm challenging on account of it being an unfalsifiable metaphysical claim with no connection to reality. Argument (2) is a perfectly ordinary legal claim we could check by examining a document on file.

I'm not sure when he started his business but in 2008 sexual orientation was added to Colorado's discrimination laws. Are you saying that when he registered to do business it was prior to said law being established
That's not what I was saying -- see above -- but as a matter of fact he did register his business back in the 1990s.

so he never agreed to support/defend said law making it coercion. I hope I'm wrong.
The fact that he registered first makes no legal difference; it doesn't really make an ethical difference either since his original registration undoubtedly expired and he's had to renew it. It's not whether trans people were counted as a "protected class" at the time he got into this business that makes it coercion; it's the fact that Colorado will prosecute him if he sells cakes without a license that makes it coercion. But that's not to say that requiring licenses is illegal or wrong or a bad idea; sometimes coercion is a perfectly appropriate thing to do.

It is an error to analyze this situation using the inference rule "Coercion is bad; X is good; therefore X is not coercion." But unfortunately that's exactly how a great many people have been trained to reason. That's why so many people hear "X is coercion." and delude themselves that what somebody said was "X is bad." Likewise, to many people the impulse to avoid drawing the conclusion that X is bad is a massive barrier to accepting that X is coercion even when it's painfully obvious that it is. Phillips entered an agreement with Colorado to follow its rules, yes; but he entered it under duress. That does not mean he has no moral obligation to follow its rules. But it does mean that if he has an obligation to follow its rules, that obligation must be justified by something other than the fact of his agreement. An agreement made under duress is not morally binding.

Suppose you lived in one of those towns back in the 1800s with a No-Irish ordinance. Suppose you wanted to open a store there, and the town council made you get a license, and one of terms of the license was agreeing to follow town ordinances. Suppose an Irish customer came into your store. Do you think you'd have had a moral duty to kick him out, on account of your agreement?

This isn't to say that Phillips has no moral obligation to make gender-transition-celebration cakes. But it does mean that if you want to argue that he has a moral obligation to make gender-transition-celebration cakes, you need to base your argument on something other than his having agreed to follow Colorado's rules. You'd need to show bakers ought to be required to make gender-transition-celebration cakes even if Colorado didn't prosecute unlicensed bakers.
 
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