Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

[Jarhyn]

Good luck ever holding ANYONE accountable. Works out well for the apologist.

What is to 'hold someone accountable', in this context, if not to punish them as they deserve? Obviously, my opposition is to the punishment of those who do not deserve it.

Angra writes as if this has not been discussed already to include a sense of responsibility in issuing an acknowledgment of participation, and an offering of funds to help investigate and access to the records that would show who in the institution was precisely involved.

He dodges and weaves to insist that no person of any level within the catholic church hierarchy is morally responsible for any iota of cooperation or scintilla of remorse. No one. Not a single person. Not even the official church “spokesperson”

AM is still on this punishment thing.

As if punishment did anything other than doubling the suffering involved.

People do not deserve punishment. It is an imprecise way to look at anything. The question is "does anyone deserve continuance of behavior from this person?" And then "what may be done to stop continued and undeserved treatment?"

I don't really think the pathway to the solution necessarily travels through the principality of "punishment".

 

[Rhea]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action)

1,538 bodies of children have been found. 160 of them reported just 6 hours ago. Most of the 139 schools in canada have not yet been examined. None of the American schools have been examined.

What should be done?

 

[Angry Floof]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up.

1,538 bodies of children have been found. 160 of them reported just 6 hours ago. Most of the 139 schools in canada have not yet been examined. None of the American schools have been examined.

What should be done?

I have a question also.

Of the schools not yet searched, how many do you expect will have children's bodies under them?

 

[Bomb#20]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action) <rest snipped>

Rhea, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine you saw me argue that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action?

 

[Rhea]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action) <rest snipped>

Rhea, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine you saw me argue that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action?

Because you have been arguing in this thread, but none of the arguments have been for action by the churches who ran the schools and murdered the kids. So if your answer is “they should be held accountable for apology and action,” then feel free to say so for the first time.

 

[Jarhyn]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action) <rest snipped>

Rhea, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine you saw me argue that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action?

Bomb, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine any of us might have even mistakenly perceived as a statement of any shape or size in acknowledgement that church and government owe apology and action?

Because when put point blank with such a question, a lack of an answer is an answer.

 

[Gospel]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action) <rest snipped>

Rhea, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine you saw me argue that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action?

Cool question bro. So what is your Modus operandi? Since you like to use Latin.

 

[Rhea]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action) <rest snipped>

Rhea, I will ask you straight up. Where is it that you imagine you saw me argue that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action?

Cool question bro. So what is your Modus operandi? Since you like to use Latin.

oretur et absconderis
currere et saltare

 

[Elixir]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action)

1,538 bodies of children have been found. 160 of them reported just 6 hours ago. Most of the 139 schools in canada have not yet been examined. None of the American schools have been examined.

What should be done?

If the posters to whom the question is posed decline to provide an answer, does that disqualify them from opining on other people's recommendations?
I want to know, just in case I hear something other than "no that's a terrible idea".

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Any employer has responsibility for the actions taken by its employees while carrying out the work and orders of the employer.

And there you go again: "responsibility". Again, I'm talking about moral guilt, not about the law or even about a moral obligation to compensate, which can arise without guilt (or further guilt, as the case might be). The employer cannot be made guilty of anything by anything the employees do while carrying out the work and orders she gaves them. Either she is guilty of some wrongdoing for giving them the orders, or she is not, but she's not going to become guilty or not depending on whether they carry out her orders or how they do that.

Of course, if the employer is a company, the same applies to the individuals who give the actual orders, etc.

It beggars belief that anyone would attempt to pretend that the RCC did not know and approve of the actions taken by priests who ran the residential schools.

You are so vastly wrong about what I'm trying to do: "attempt to pretend". I'm not pretending anything, or attempting to pretend anything. I'm arguing against claims and arguments based in group-thinking, collective blaming, and so on.

Again, who is the RCC in your sentence above?

Surely, Francis did not know. Some members of the RCC did. Most did not.

After all, this is the same employer who was responsible for the medieval inquisitions, which were under direct papal control.

The same employer? In which sense is that "the same"? Surely not the same people, and a relevant cause continuity exists in some regards, but not in others.

What do you think is the correct punishment for someone who is responsible for burying hundreds of children in shallow, unmarked graves?

If you're thinking about a hypothetical scenario not related to this one, it depends on factors such as their motive, the information available to them, etc.

If you're thinking about this case, almost certainly no single person did. Those that did bury one or more children deserved a punishment to be determined on a case by case basis, and I would need more information; again it depends on factors such as the above. Of course, if some of them actually murdered those children, they deserve to be executed. But that's the murderers. The grave-diggers present a more difficult case - or rather, many more difficult cases.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action)

1,538 bodies of children have been found. 160 of them reported just 6 hours ago. Most of the 139 schools in canada have not yet been examined. None of the American schools have been examined.

What should be done?

No, I do think that governments and the church owe apologies, but that's in the sense that the people who lead them may engage in wrongdoings in the context of their leadership, and they owe apologies for that.

As for the second question, can you without the passive voice? Instead of "what should be done?", something like 'what should <person A> do?', for some person A.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Good luck ever holding ANYONE accountable. Works out well for the apologist.

What is to 'hold someone accountable', in this context, if not to punish them as they deserve? Obviously, my opposition is to the punishment of those who do not deserve it.

Angra writes as if this has not been discussed already to include a sense of responsibility in issuing an acknowledgment of participation, and an offering of funds to help investigate and access to the records that would show who in the institution was precisely involved.

He dodges and weaves to insist that no person of any level within the catholic church hierarchy is morally responsible for any iota of cooperation or scintilla of remorse. No one. Not a single person. Not even the official church “spokesperson”

That's just something you make up. I did not say not a single person. I did not even say Francis was certainly not guilty of some coverup - though I have not seen evidence that he did cover it up, and you have presented none. He certainly is not guilty of any of the crimes against those children, or of failing to supervise those schools - he had no such obligation.

If you're talking about an obligation to cooperate in the investigation, well he should open the archives if he has access to archives that can shed light on the subject (all other things equal); as for dedicating money to it, maybe, though I'm not sure about that. There are other uses for that money - e.g., donate it to some charity that saves lives? In any case, he should not be the pope and should not be spending money on promoting Catholicism; he's using the money in a wrong way, that's for sure.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Angra writes as if this has not been discussed already to include a sense of responsibility in issuing an acknowledgment of participation, and an offering of funds to help investigate and access to the records that would show who in the institution was precisely involved.

He dodges and weaves to insist that no person of any level within the catholic church hierarchy is morally responsible for any iota of cooperation or scintilla of remorse. No one. Not a single person. Not even the official church “spokesperson”

AM is still on this punishment thing.

As if punishment did anything other than doubling the suffering involved.

People do not deserve punishment. It is an imprecise way to look at anything. The question is "does anyone deserve continuance of behavior from this person?" And then "what may be done to stop continued and undeserved treatment?"

I don't really think the pathway to the solution necessarily travels through the principality of "punishment".

Of course, people often deserve punishment. And punishment does something else, when meted out on those who deserve it and because they deserve it: it does justice, and yes it inflicts more suffering, but it is deserved.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Indeed if burning these two empty churches, after a hundred years of abuse, cultural genocide and murder, is the worst the church has faced, theyy may consider they’ve gotten off a lot better than a “stand your ground” defense would have wrought.

No, that's different people.

Others have said, burning churches is the wrong move, but they wouldn’t condemn the perpetrators because of the trauma that prompted it.

Who? I did condemn the perpetrators repeatedly when asked - though there is not much point in insisting, as there is agreement in condemning them. One of the big problems in this thread is the blaming of the innocent, not the lack of blaming of the guilty.

I have to say, the ones saying that no action should be taken because the murderers were not stopped, despite contemporary complaints, so they successfully got away with it, and ongoing appeals for investigation were ignored, therefore it’s all over and everyone should realize there’s no one left to care, and no one is even responsible to be investigated, including the holders of the records and the holders of the land; I have to say those opinnions written out here in public, sound pretty stone cold to me.

I did not say a police investigation was not justified. I did not even say that Francis should not take any action. If there are some records he has access to and can shed light on what happened, he probably should give the police or whoever is investigating access to them.

 

[Gospel]

No, that's different people.



One of the big problems in this thread is the blaming of the innocent, not the lack of blaming of the guilty.

Quote that part of the thread.

Thanks,

 

[Angra Mainyu]

No, that's different people.



One of the big problems in this thread is the blaming of the innocent, not the lack of blaming of the guilty.

Quote that part of the thread.

Thanks,

That would be too long; it's so many posts I've replied to, and others I haven't. I've been making arguments in that regard all throughout the thread, so I would have to say you can just read my posts, or many of the posts I replied to, or just the thread. But purely for example: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...l-Disobedience&p=918401&viewfull=1#post918401 (the pope was blamed for not apologizing). Or , where it is said that 'the Church' should be begging for forgiveness: then someone (apparently, the pope and other church leaders) is implicitly said to have an obligation to beg for forgiveness for crimes against humanity - which is a form of blaming them, as otherwise it would make no sense to beg for forgiveness -...even though they did not commit them. Or see [url=https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?24340-Aboriginal-Civil-Disobedience&p=918777&viewfull=1#post918777]this post. It's just all over the place.

 

[Gospel]

No, that's different people.



One of the big problems in this thread is the blaming of the innocent, not the lack of blaming of the guilty.

Quote that part of the thread.

Thanks,

That would be too long; it's so many posts I've replied to, and others I haven't. I've been making arguments in that regard all throughout the thread, so I would have to say you can just read my posts, or many of the posts I replied to, or just the thread. But purely for example: https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...l-Disobedience&p=918401&viewfull=1#post918401 (the pope was blamed for not apologizing). Or , where it is said that 'the Church' should be begging for forgiveness: then someone (apparently, the pope and other church leaders) is implicitly said to have an obligation to beg for forgiveness for crimes against humanity - which is a form of blaming them, as otherwise it would make no sense to beg for forgiveness -...even though they did not commit them. Or see [url=https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?24340-Aboriginal-Civil-Disobedience&p=918777&viewfull=1#post918777]this post. It's just all over the place.

You interpret those posts in that way. Those posts about the Pope (and this is my interpretation) is about the show of remorse and taking the leadership role that is the Pope. The Pope has on many occasions shown remorse for things that the Pope hasn't physically done. This is not something out of the norm for the position of Pope. Now I'll grant that a lot of hyperbole has been used VIA choice of words (like begging) but reading between the lines I do not see any post explicitly naming the Pope or anyone in particular who didn't actually commit the horrors as an actual first party. The evidence you've provided is questionable (again in my interpretation/opinion).

 

[Rhea]

Angra, andd Bomb - I will ask you straight up. (And anyone else who argues that the church and governments do not owe any apology or action)

1,538 bodies of children have been found. 160 of them reported just 6 hours ago. Most of the 139 schools in canada have not yet been examined. None of the American schools have been examined.

What should be done?

No, I do think that governments and the church owe apologies, but that's in the sense that the people who lead them may engage in wrongdoings in the context of their leadership, and they owe apologies for that.

As for the second question, can you without the passive voice? Instead of "what should be done?", something like 'what should <person A> do?', for some person A.

I chose to not put words in your mouth. It’s an open question, asking you what YOU think should be done and by whom. I asked you to say what you think SHOULD happen, because so far you’ve spent a lot of time just telling everyone what should not happen, which so far has sounded a lot like providing cover. So I’m giving you a chance to say in your own words what you think SHOULD happen. You get to pick by whom and to whom.

1500+ indigenous children were murdered and their bodies hidden. What do you think should be done, and by whom and to whom? What actions should anyone in the world now take - now that we know this.

 

[J842P]

1500+ indigenous children were murdered and their bodies hidden.

Is this actually what is being alleged? I cannot find any information about it, other than the discovery of the graves.

 

[Angry Floof]

Question for the "don't blame the church" people: Of the 100+ schools not yet searched, given all that we know so far, how many of them would you expect will have children's bodies buried under them?