The problem with admitting the top 10% of students to the university

[atrib]

Man, LP is pretty smart, being able to draw a bell curve using a single data point!

One of my professors at Berkeley once said something to the same effect. He was trying to get students to recognize the pitfalls of using limited data to infer the properties of foundation soils, and take a dig at his alma mater, Stanford at the same time.

Dr. Sitar:
At MIT, some researchers will draw out an entire curve using a single data point. At Stanford, researchers will draw out an entire family of curves (where the property varies as a function of multiple underlying parameters) based on a single point. Its like magic.

Perhaps LP went to Stanford.

 

[Toni]

Exactly!!!!

Yes, exactly. Individuals with the same genetics and the same home environment can have vastly different interests, talents, motivations, drives, aspirations, health, etc.

But unless they’re identical twins, siblings are not genetically identical. With the same home environment, that leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic.

I'm not certain what point you are trying to make?

 

[KeepTalking]

Man, LP is pretty smart, being able to draw a bell curve using a single data point!

One of my professors at Berkeley once said something to the same effect. He was trying to get students to recognize the pitfalls of using limited data to infer the properties of foundation soils, and take a dig at his alma mater, Stanford at the same time.

Dr. Sitar:
At MIT, some researchers will draw out an entire curve using a single data point. At Stanford, researchers will draw out an entire family of curves (where the property varies as a function of multiple underlying parameters) based on a single point. Its like magic.

Perhaps LP went to Stanford.

I present to you the single point bell curve:

_|_

 

[untermensche]

I see no curves.

 

[KeepTalking]

I see no curves.

You aren't close enough, it's a very small curve.

 

[Jarhyn]

I see no curves.

You aren't close enough, it's a very small curve.

The curve of a single digit, so narrow is it.

 

[untermensche]

I see no curves.

You aren't close enough, it's a very small curve.

I agree with that.

 

[barbos]

Exactly!!!!

Yes, exactly. Individuals with the same genetics and the same home environment can have vastly different interests, talents, motivations, drives, aspirations, health, etc.

Are you saying siblings have the same genes? graduated with honors you say?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Wow, even more vaguely defined numbers without sources. Y'all are really setting the bar high for academic rigor, we should absolutely run the university system based on your opinions!

Sources have been provided here a million times already.

Barbos, a 25% impact, originating from some event, doesn't imply a thing about events which generate other effects.

The fact that a single teacher can shift performance this dramatically (And 25% is dramatic!) Does not imply all other shifts are genetic. It just means that, in the course of a single school year, a belief that one is capable has a large (25%!) impact on grades. That is already a miracle.

By your own numbers.

That's not what he's saying. 25% is environment--that's school, neighborhood and parenting. That doesn't say it's a belief in how well they will do. That's a small piece of the pie.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Genetics is nothing but potential.

It takes experience to bring out that potential.

And to maximize potential exposure to modes of thinking must begin early.

By first grade many have not maximized their potential due to a lack of exposure to thoughts and ideas at home.

Or due to a stressful home environment.

In other words, parenting.

 

[laughing dog]

Exactly!!!!

Yes, exactly. Individuals with the same genetics and the same home environment can have vastly different interests, talents, motivations, drives, aspirations, health, etc.

But unless they’re identical twins, siblings are not genetically identical. With the same home environment, that leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic.

You must have been an only child, because many siblings have different life experiences and different pressures in the same home environment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My grandparents did not go to college. Most did not finish high school. My grandfather actively tried to convince my father to drop out of high school at 16. My father graduated just to spite his father.

My siblings and I all were top students, graduating at the top of our class in high school, graduating with honors from college, even though some of us were also working full time while attending. Some of us went to grad school. Some of us went to professional schools.

No one is adopted.

You seem to believe that people who do not do well in school are not intelligent and/or are not motivated.

You seem totally ignorant of the fact that many people live with tremendous personal and economic pressures that make it hard to figure out how to stay in school and keep a roof over your head---which a lot of kids are not able to do.

Some people do not live up to their genetic potential.

That's not evidence that genetics are not an important factor.

 

[Trausti]

But unless they’re identical twins, siblings are not genetically identical. With the same home environment, that leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic.

You must have been an only child, because many siblings have different life experiences and different pressures in the same home environment.

But they don't have identical genes! Damn, surprising how many creationists there are on this board.

 

[Rhea]

But unless they’re identical twins, siblings are not genetically identical. With the same home environment, that leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic.

You must have been an only child, because many siblings have different life experiences and different pressures in the same home environment.

But they don't have identical genes! Damn, surprising how many creationists there are on this board.

No, Trausti, you said
“That leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic,”

Only, that does NOT leave genes as the diistinguishing factor. Other distinguishing characteristics are birth order, gender treatment, external traumas to a family, personal struggles (did you hit the pandemic is 8th grade, or in kindergarten), among many other factors.


Genes are hardly the only distinguishing characteristics between siblings.

 

[Trausti]

But they don't have identical genes! Damn, surprising how many creationists there are on this board.

No, Trausti, you said
“That leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic,”

Only, that does NOT leave genes as the diistinguishing factor. Other distinguishing characteristics are birth order, gender treatment, external traumas to a family, personal struggles (did you hit the pandemic is 8th grade, or in kindergarten), among many other factors.


Genes are hardly the only distinguishing characteristics between siblings.

Er, okay. But you'll not get a more similar environment that a home shared by siblings. And if despite such shared environment siblings don't turn out identical, then that 50% genetic difference is where it's at.

 

[Rhea]

But they don't have identical genes! Damn, surprising how many creationists there are on this board.

No, Trausti, you said
“That leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic,”

Only, that does NOT leave genes as the diistinguishing factor. Other distinguishing characteristics are birth order, gender treatment, external traumas to a family, personal struggles (did you hit the pandemic is 8th grade, or in kindergarten), among many other factors.


Genes are hardly the only distinguishing characteristics between siblings.

Er, okay. But you'll not get a more similar environment that a home shared by siblings. And if despite such shared environment siblings don't turn out identical, then that 50% genetic difference is where it's at.

Yes you can. For example if you study first born children they have more in common with each other perfomance wise than they have with their own later-born siblings.

 

[Trausti]

Er, okay. But you'll not get a more similar environment that a home shared by siblings. And if despite such shared environment siblings don't turn out identical, then that 50% genetic difference is where it's at.

Yes you can. For example if you study first born children they have more in common with each other perfomance wise than they have with their own later-born siblings.

More in common with who? Their siblings or first-born children from other families?

 

[barbos]

My grandparents did not go to college. Most did not finish high school. My grandfather actively tried to convince my father to drop out of high school at 16. My father graduated just to spite his father.

My siblings and I all were top students, graduating at the top of our class in high school, graduating with honors from college, even though some of us were also working full time while attending. Some of us went to grad school. Some of us went to professional schools.

No one is adopted.

You seem to believe that people who do not do well in school are not intelligent and/or are not motivated.

You seem totally ignorant of the fact that many people live with tremendous personal and economic pressures that make it hard to figure out how to stay in school and keep a roof over your head---which a lot of kids are not able to do.

Some people do not live up to their genetic potential.

That's not evidence that genetics are not an important factor.

Yeah, and some do not live down to their genetic potential.

 

[laughing dog]

But they don't have identical genes! Damn, surprising how many creationists there are on this board.

No, Trausti, you said
“That leaves genes as the distinguishing characteristic,”

Only, that does NOT leave genes as the diistinguishing factor. Other distinguishing characteristics are birth order, gender treatment, external traumas to a family, personal struggles (did you hit the pandemic is 8th grade, or in kindergarten), among many other factors.


Genes are hardly the only distinguishing characteristics between siblings.

Er, okay. But you'll not get a more similar environment that a home shared by siblings. And if despite such shared environment siblings don't turn out identical, then that 50% genetic difference is where it's at.

For some reason you seem incapable of grasping the simple concept that genetics most likely determines potential capacity but environment and life greatly influence actual capacity.

 

[barbos]

Er, okay. But you'll not get a more similar environment that a home shared by siblings. And if despite such shared environment siblings don't turn out identical, then that 50% genetic difference is where it's at.

Yes you can. For example if you study first born children they have more in common with each other perfomance wise than they have with their own later-born siblings.

They did all that and much more. Result is, environment has much smaller effect than genes. Environment is overrated.