Aboriginal Civil Disobedience

[Angry Floof]

If the RCC or any organization cared to, it could engineer its practices to minimize the opportunity for harm to children and others.

But we know it won't, for much the same reason that Angra won't acknowledge that the corruption of the RCC commits and enables child abuse and that it's not just some coincidence or anomaly. Abuse is a feature, not a bug, and no amount of punishing the people who burned the schools will prevent further abuses of the RCC.

It could insist on openness and accepting responsibility, acknowledge harm done, make penance.

You would think. I mean, that's just ordinary grownup stuff. Waiting a few centuries to take responsibility for your organization's crimes is not.

Make reforms to prevent additional harm to others.

Not if it wants to continue to thrive in the world. If religious organizations followed such grownup, humane ideas as protecting the vulnerable and putting the well being of humans before social dominance and profits, very few religious organizations would exist, and those few that did would actually be the good and humane force in the world that religions all claim to be.

It could offer compensation to attempt to rectify some of the harms as it has done in some of the cases of priest sexual abuse. See? It even knows and recognizes its responsibilities to some extent. It could do better. Much, much, much better.

It starts by acknowledging past sins and penance. Some of that penance must surely be talking with families and asking what they need to be done.

Too bad the corrupt RCC isn't capable of doing the right thing unless it's a few hundred years later when it seems safely distant and "we don't do that anymore" ish so believers won't leave in droves.

 

[Elixir]

You would think. I mean, that's just ordinary grownup stuff.

Expecting grownup stuff from a massive organization based on extorting people using threats based on fairy tales ... that's just childish!

 

[Jarhyn]

You would think. I mean, that's just ordinary grownup stuff.

Expecting grownup stuff from a massive organization based on extorting people using threats based on fairy tales ... that's just childish!

Threats based on tales that are only believable when learned as young children and told to believe in such.

Actual "fairy tales" have more reality to them than that bunkum, as a cycle of Tinkerbell effect + dreams, belief, story writing, story reading, and subsequent effect on a life, more Tinkerbell effect, more belief, more story writing keeps active traits active in lore and thus experience and thus lore.

As the bible and other Epic Cycles are no longer active in their cannon, the characters in it are inactive, dead myth rather than an active trope cycle.

As long as people are writing and dreaming, the Fair folk will certainly live more in the realm of men.

I find it interesting that people likeN the Epic Cycle to such folk tales since those have more foothold in reality than epic cycle myths.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Having a hard time understanding what you think you're defending here. It's not truth or justice, that's for sure.

It is both. But it is true you are not understanding it. If you intend to understand my view, I suggest you read this post carefully.

Your reply now:

I don't give a shit what you've posted before.

Of course you do not. You still make things up about me and what I say ( https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...l-Disobedience&p=924975&viewfull=1#post924975 ), and even recognize that you have a hard time understanding what I am defending - though you make up that it's not truth or justice, and when I tell you:

Having a hard time understanding what you think you're defending here. It's not truth or justice, that's for sure.

It is both. But it is true you are not understanding it. If you intend to understand my view, I suggest you read this post carefully.

you reply that you don't give a shit what I posted before. Of course, you are just convinced that you are right, and attack, regardless of what I actually said.

Whatever number you expect, it is a number that is much higher than any intelligent, aware adult would expect from other organizations, even other religious organizations. And you damn well know why that is.

No, it depends on the organization. The Cuban government?
But if you count what happened earlier vs. other Canadian organizations, well, it's because there were kidnappings and they were waging a war. It's to be expected. After the schools were closed, I do not expect more bodies in other churches than in other corrupt organizations, on average. I expect no bodies in churches after that.

You cannot address this topic without acknowledging that unless something drastically changes within the RCC, these abuses will continue, and they will continue at a rate and severity that is unmatched outside of what we call extremism.

What topic? The blaming of the innocent in this thread? The collective blaming? The misrepresentation of what other posters say? Sure I can.
And of course, some things continue, and some things do not. No children are kidnapped as before. And I do not expect any further murders, either, except rarely and not in connection to that. As B20 pointed out, the war is over. Some abuses do happen, and will likely continue to happen. But yes, the RCC is bad. It would be much better if it were dissolved, in a gradual manner to prevent some negative side-effects, and by choice of the parishioners and clergy.

Stop dancing around this reality. Hold power accountable, and in this case, the power is the RCC, which is headed by the Pope and the rest of the RCC's corrupt management.

I do not dance around reality. You want to punish people who are not guilty of the crimes you want to punish them for.

Stop pretending this is not relevant. At best, it's disingenuous. At worst, you're actively, wantonly supporting a level of corruption that murders the children of powerless people without consequence.

No, I am speaking out against collective blame, attacks on the innocent, and repeated misrepresentation of my words and those of other posters who speak out against what is happening in this thread.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

There is a tremendous difference between taking blame and accepting responsibility.

In the sense of responsibility to compensate, yes. But that is not what we are talking about here.

In my job, if I make a mistake, it could have serious and potentially life threatening results. If I make a mistake, I may be to blame but also potentially to blame is how the various systems in my job, including my work station and the structure of my work day can play a part, as well as various manufacturers, etc. But largely, if there is an error, I am to blame. Most errors are easily rectifiable: a test is re-run, new results are generated, data is reviewed, the correct results are reissued along with any necessary verbiage. Some errors potentially would not be rectifiable and could result in serious harm and even death.

You are to blame for negligence, yes.

My employer and all similar employers in my field have engineered my workplace to minimize the chance for such errors, have put into place many checks to catch any errors in every progress and to stop or correct any errors and to prevent errors from happening. There is a fairly continuous process in place to always seek better, more accurate, safer ways to do our jobs and all of us share a responsibility, both moral and on pain of keeping our job, of doing our utmost to do our best.

Ultimately, though, if I released a test result that resulted in harm or death, I might be fired if it were determined that I was personally to blame (rather than a manufacturer, or other entity) but ultimately, it would be my employer who would face legal and financial responsibility. Probably, I would not be fired for a one time occurrence--unless I lied or attempted to cover up my mistake. Even though my employer has over 50,000 employees in just once city. I would not be sued. I could lose my job. I could lose licensure. I could lose the opportunity to every be employed in that field again but ultimately, I could not be sued. My employer could be sued. My employer could lose its certification and be unable to continue its work. My director could lose his job, his licensure, could potentially even face prison time. The last would likely only happen if my director knew of the errors and attempted to cover them up. In other words: attempting to cover up errors is considered far far worse than the error itself. Even when loss of life has occurred.

Your employer is legally responsible. Morally, it has no obligation except in the sense some humans acted for 'it'. Your employer could lose its certification. Why? Is there a significant risk? Is someone being punished?

Your director could his job, his licensure, could potentially even face prison time. For what? For your fault? No; that would be massively unjust. It is his fault he's being punished for. And of course, attempting to cover up for errors is not the same that attempting to cover up for murder, abuse, etc. The errors are not malicious.

This is not something bizarre or arcane: it is simply industry standard.

And again, the guilty are punished, not the innocent.

If the RCC or any organization cared to, it could engineer its practices to minimize the opportunity for harm to children and others.

Who is the RCC?
The pope? Maybe he could. If you know he has the means, okay blame him for that, not for what he did not do.

It could insist on openness and accepting responsibility, acknowledge harm done, make penance.

Who? The pope? Make penance for actions he is not guilty of? He could, but he should not.
An entity with no mind? It cannot make penance.

Make reforms to prevent additional harm to others. It could offer compensation to attempt to rectify some of the harms as it has done in some of the cases of priest sexual abuse. See? It even knows and recognizes its responsibilities to some extent. It could do better. Much, much, much better.

And by 'it' you mean 'he' ? Who has the moral obligation to do what, in your claims?

It starts by acknowledging past sins and penance. Some of that penance must surely be talking with families and asking what they need to be done.

If you mean 'he', then he is not guilty and did not commit past sins.
If you mean some entity without a mind, it is not morally guilty of anything at all. Because entities without a mind are not the sort of entity that can be morally guilty. Or do penance.

 

[Jarhyn]

You would think. I mean, that's just ordinary grownup stuff.

Expecting grownup stuff from a massive organization based on extorting people using threats based on fairy tales ... that's just childish!

Threats based on tales that are only believable when learned as young children and told to believe in such.

Actual "fairy tales" have more reality to them than that bunkum, as a cycle of Tinkerbell effect + dreams, belief, story writing, story reading, and subsequent effect on a life, more Tinkerbell effect, more belief, more story writing keeps active traits active in lore and thus experience and thus lore.

As the bible and other Epic Cycles are no longer active in their cannon, the characters in it are inactive, dead myth rather than an active trope cycle.

As long as people are writing and dreaming, the Fair folk will certainly live more in the realm of men.

I find it interesting that people likeN the Epic Cycle to such folk tales since those have more foothold in reality than epic cycle myths.

As an example of the reality of this, Nisse have an existence in reality as creatures of stories and which come out of and return to story:

My mother in law is coming to town as an ongoing facet of a recent hospitalization; I cannot provide home care coverage to the extent I would have to, and so she is going to be around to help.

But because my husband is an artist and draws some really kinky porn from time to time, most of his sketchbooks needed to be hidden so as to prevent awkward questions and gaslighting. One, however, was unaccounted for.

We tossed the house for it and didn't find it.

"We looked all day for it," my husband says, "if we can't find it she won't find it."

"No, that's not how it works at all," I respond, "I am certain that the second she walks in, it will drop out of thin air onto the floor in front of her; a Nisse may have taken it."

Of course, I say this out of jest, right before I tongue in cheek knock on the wooden floor.

That's when, with a second audible thump, my husband shifts something we have already checked, and the sketchbook thuds to the floor.

This will, of course, keep the idea, the belief, and the story alive for the two of us until the day we die. It makes the phenomena more disturbing for us, and the lesson of the Nisse (don't leave that unaccounted for which can cause disaster if it turns up inappropriately) continues to gain power and meaning.

It is a fairy story, but one that is real and lives among men.

 

[Angry Floof]

Whatever number you expect, it is a number that is much higher than any intelligent, aware adult would expect from other organizations, even other religious organizations. And you damn well know why that is.

No, it depends on the organization. The Cuban government?

Jesus Christ. The fucking point is that, yes, you can expect a higher number of abuses and injustices among corrupt organizations, whether governments or cults like the RCC. Stealing indigenous people's kids and burying them under schools is not just your ordinary, everyday behavior to expect from any group of humans. It takes a certain kind of organization and group culture to demonstrate such depravity.

This is not rocket science. It is the corrupt nature of a very powerful organization that gives rise to such atrocity. The RCC is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination regardless of what individuals did what directly.

NO amount of punishment or "accountability" you can demand of whoever burned those schools will ever change the corrupt, abusive nature of the RCC or stop it from continuing to abuse. They absolutely can be held accountable and the organization's abuses can be challenged. What you're doing is not that.

But if you count what happened earlier vs. other Canadian organizations, well, it's because there were kidnappings and they were waging a war. It's to be expected. After the schools were closed, I do not expect more bodies in other churches than in other corrupt organizations, on average. I expect no bodies in churches after that.

Given the nature of the RCC, I would require actual searches of church properties before I would believe that only the schools in Canada were corrupt and abusive. Those schools were RCC. They were set up specifically for housing and abusing indigenous children and not for worship services of parishioners in the town, but that doesn't mean they were not RCC properties run by RCC personnel under RCC ideology and culture.

You cannot address this topic without acknowledging that unless something drastically changes within the RCC, these abuses will continue, and they will continue at a rate and severity that is unmatched outside of what we call extremism.

What topic? The blaming of the innocent in this thread?

The people burning the churches are the closest thing to innocent you will find in regard to the topic of Aboriginal Civil Disobedience. I agree you should not blame them. Their actions were justifiable. Not condoned, and not justifiable in just any old circumstances, but in regard to the indigenous schools and abuses of the RCC, justifiable.

The collective blaming?

Hold power accountable. The world is a shitty place when people don't, and the RCC's existence is not needed for the well being of humanity, and it's a thing without feelings, so it doesn't matter even if it's a neutral force, which it isn't. If people want to continue to give such organizations power and influence, then they should be held accountable, even if that simply means speaking out that the RCC is a corrupt organization made up of the worst of humanity parading as the best, it is abusive, and it will always leave suffering and injustice in its wake.

The RCC's supporters may be unaware of their complicity, but without them, the RCC cannot abuse. You can challenge that or look away, your choice, and clearly you choose to look away. No one in the RCC is being treated unfairly by calling out the corrupt nature of the organization and its world view and demanding a grownup, humane response from those in its highest positions of power.

The misrepresentation of what other posters say? Sure I can.
And of course, some things continue, and some things do not. No children are kidnapped as before. And I do not expect any further murders, either, except rarely and not in connection to that. As B20 pointed out, the war is over. Some abuses do happen, and will likely continue to happen.

Meh. people die and shit. Whattaya gonna do? Oh, well.

When you know an organization is corrupt and abusive, you don't say, oh, well, that shit happens.

Side note. I'm reminded of David Miscavige's response to outrage about his cult's treatment of Lisa McPherson that led to her death: "People die." In case you don't know, Miscavige is the highest controlling power in scientology, another cult that thrives on the same basic manipulations employed by the RCC and has also been leaving suffering and abuse in its wake since its inception.

But yes, the RCC is bad. It would be much better if it were dissolved, in a gradual manner to prevent some negative side-effects, and by choice of the parishioners and clergy.

The RCC will never, ever be "dissolved" as long as so many people are unwilling to challenge it and hold it and those in its power positions accountable. It will never, ever be dissolved as long as billions support it. I don't know what else you think anyone's suggesting as far as reforming or "dissolving" religion, but the reality is that if it happens at all, it will be gradual, but it will never be without side effects. Social dominance religions only exist through animal brain fear, prejudice, and stupidity, and that shit does not go down without a fight. Challenging religion will always, always be a nasty, violent affair in some way. No one is suggesting that violence against religious people is acceptable, but burning down empty religious buildings is the kind of thing that might force people to stop looking away from the corruption and abuse that will always come from such ideologies.

Stop dancing around this reality. Hold power accountable, and in this case, the power is the RCC, which is headed by the Pope and the rest of the RCC's corrupt management.

I do not dance around reality. You want to punish people who are not guilty of the crimes you want to punish them for.

No, I want the people who benefit from the corruption of a powerful organization to be held accountable and not be allowed to simply wave off and excuse the abuses that naturally arise from such corrupt organizations that ride on depraved ideology. I want those in charge of that corrupt and powerful organization to not only apologize, but to acknowledge those aspects of its practices and beliefs that give rise to such abuses and to explain to the world exactly how they plan to remove or reform those aspects.

The problem with that is, because so many people won't hold power accountable and turn a blind eye to corruption as long as it doesn't affect them personally, such an organization would essentially die off on its own. Removing the elements of the RCC that enable and encourage abuse would mean removing all the things that hijack people's animal brain fears and ensure the organization maintains power.

BUT oh I forgot... "innocent."

Stop pretending this is not relevant. At best, it's disingenuous. At worst, you're actively, wantonly supporting a level of corruption that murders the children of powerless people without consequence.

No, I am speaking out against collective blame, attacks on the innocent, and repeated misrepresentation of my words and those of other posters who speak out against what is happening in this thread.

I think you only care about attacks on the "innocent" powerful by the powerless who are justifiably infuriated at an abusive, corrupt organization that will continue to abuse because so many people like you don't hold them accountable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A group still hides bodies and the names of the perpetrators.

And we have evidence that they know those details?!

I do agree they're not interested in investigating, but I see no reason to think there are answers to be found, other than a count of bodies.

You don’t think the Catholic Church knows who ran those schools and who worked there?

But what says they are all guilty?

 

[Jarhyn]

At AF, I would recommend care in claiming organizations don't have feelings. They are bigger, more alien, more complicated than individual human feelings, but organizations do have personalities, actions, reactions, responses, and systemic priorities resulting from the arrangements of people in it's hierarchy and the rules they are operating on.

In short, these are what it is to have feelings.

The question is, should we care about the feelings of a sociopath as to their lack of desire to see the inside of the corrections infrastructure? Why would we care about the expressed feelings of an organization of sociopathy?

The real question is, is the network so corrupted that corruption will reinstantiate itself with additional rules avoidance schemes even if we reboot it?

 

[Jarhyn]

You don’t think the Catholic Church knows who ran those schools and who worked there?

But what says they are all guilty?

Their failure to oust the offenders.

I have seen Loli and Shota groups more proactive about protecting kids and ejecting abusers. In fact they tend to be pretty serious about that.

If literal pedophiles can eject chomos, the inability of the RCC to reject chomos and child murderers is telling.

 

[Angry Floof]

The real question is, is the network so corrupted that corruption will reinstantiate itself with additional rules avoidance schemes even if we reboot it?

No idea what you mean by "reboot." That term doesn't make sense in regard to religion or organizations.

But even if you could turn the RCC off and turn it back on again, it's still comprised of beliefs and practices that give rise to corruption and abuse. I would list some of those elements, but I've done that about a hundred times in my travels here, and everyone here should damn well know what they are by now regardless of your beliefs.

So probably no, because its operating system is inherently corrupt.

If you mean something more along the lines of reform or overhaul from the ground up, then probably also no because in order to design an operating system that is not inherently corrupt and protects humanity from our worst cognitive pitfalls and behaviors, you'd have to build something that doesn't resemble the RCC.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Jesus Christ. The fucking point is that, yes, you can expect a higher number of abuses and injustices among corrupt organizations, whether governments or cults like the RCC. Stealing indigenous people's kids and burying them under schools is not just your ordinary, everyday behavior to expect from any group of humans. It takes a certain kind of organization and group culture to demonstrate such depravity.

It is not the kind of depravity one can expect from Francis, or most people in the RCC. It is what one could expect in the context of the war that is over. It is not really my point, though. If you want to denounce the crimes of Francis and others like him, great. What I oppose is the blaming of people for what they did not do. That is blaming the innocent. It often results from collective blaming.

This is not rocket science. It is the corrupt nature of a very powerful organization that gives rise to such atrocity. The RCC is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination regardless of what individuals did what directly.

Who is the RCC?

The parishioners, nearly all priests, the pope, are all innocent of the kidnappings, abuse, etc.

NO amount of punishment or "accountability" you can demand of whoever burned those schools will ever change the corrupt, abusive nature of the RCC or stop it from continuing to abuse. They absolutely can be held accountable and the organization's abuses can be challenged. What you're doing is not that.

The people who are not guilty do not deserve to be held accountable for that which they did not do.

Given the nature of the RCC, I would require actual searches of church properties before I would believe that only the schools in Canada were corrupt and abusive. Those schools were RCC. They were set up specifically for housing and abusing indigenous children and not for worship services of parishioners in the town, but that doesn't mean they were not RCC properties run by RCC personnel under RCC ideology and culture.

That would be clearly uncalled for. It's absurd to think that RCC churches in general are places where people are kidnapped, murdered and buried. That was the result of a specific kind of war. If you have evidence of more of that, you can present it to the courts.
That aside, yes, abuse of children by priests is more common than in other organizations. But that is actually being dealt with by the authorities of different countries. Still, one can blame the pope for his participation in not releasing information, and perhaps (if there is evidence) deliberately hiding criminals. But that is not what he is blamed for and I oppose.

The people burning the churches are the closest thing to innocent you will find in regard to the topic of Aboriginal Civil Disobedience.

Not remotely. But I was talking about innocent of the crimes they are being accused of. Not of some other crimes.

I agree you should not blame them. Their actions were justifiable. Not condoned, and not justifiable in just any old circumstances, but in regard to the indigenous schools and abuses of the RCC, justifiable.

No, they are to blame. They choose to burn the church, which was used by people who did nothing to deserve that, as far as the arsonits could know. And they endangered lives. And they broke the law. And they engaged in collective blaming.

Hold power accountable.

Who is "power"? Whoever he is, having power does not change the fact that he did not do it.

I want those in charge of that corrupt and powerful organization to not only apologize, but to acknowledge those aspects of its practices and beliefs that give rise to such abuses and to explain to the world exactly how they plan to remove or reform those aspects.

And by demanding an apology, you blame them for what they did not do.

I think you only care about attacks on the "innocent" powerful by the powerless who are justifiably infuriated at an abusive, corrupt organization that will continue to abuse because so many people like you don't hold them accountable.

Yes, I know you think that.

 

[Arctish]

Who is the RCC?

Not who, what.

What is the RCC?

It is an institution, one of many institutional religions aka organized religions. It has it's own culture, belief system, structure, and purpose. It is wealthy and well organized. And it is notorious for human rights abuses such as the Inquisition, the enslavement of Native peoples of the Americas and Polynesia, and sexual abuse of children. It is also known to have run schools filled with kidnapped children in which many were physically and emotionally abused, and where thousand died and were discarded like trash.

In an earlier post I asked you if you understand what a corporation is. Do you? Do you know why a corporation can be sued, fined, or otherwise penalized for the results of its acts or failure to act? I ask because if you don't understand that a non-human, non-living legal entity such as a corporation can be held accountable for the impact it has on people and communities, you'll never understand why the RCC is accountable for those neglected and possibly murdered kids. Not just the employees and clergy. The Church itself is accountable.

 

[Elixir]

What is the RCC?
It is an institution

.. comprised of individuals.

The Church itself is accountable.

Like Ohio State University is "responsible" for the silence of Gym Jordan.
I'd posit that it would be more appropriate to prosecute Jordan for his negligence than to sue OSU for money or shut them down.
Once Jordan is in jail, maybe it's worth looking at punitive measures against OSU to keep them from harboring more Gym Jordans, but without prosecuting the individual(s) first, it's a hollow gesture.

 

[Jarhyn]

What is the RCC?
It is an institution

.. comprised of individuals.

The Church itself is accountable.

Like Ohio State University is "responsible" for the silence of Gym Jordan.
I'd posit that it would be more appropriate to prosecute Jordan for his negligence than to sue OSU for money or shut them down.
Once Jordan is in jail, maybe it's worth looking at punitive measures against OSU to keep them from harboring more Gym Jordans, but without prosecuting the individual(s) first, it's a hollow gesture.

That is the shape of said accountability and guilt. That is how accountability transfers to an organization. The issue here is that we have identified that an unknown party of members have done terrible things, and the continuing act of the organization keeps the identities hidden, as well as the extent.

Prosecuting the individuals comes after cracking the org's silence.

 

[Elixir]

.. comprised of individuals.



Like Ohio State University is "responsible" for the silence of Gym Jordan.
I'd posit that it would be more appropriate to prosecute Jordan for his negligence than to sue OSU for money or shut them down.
Once Jordan is in jail, maybe it's worth looking at punitive measures against OSU to keep them from harboring more Gym Jordans, but without prosecuting the individual(s) first, it's a hollow gesture.

That is the shape of said accountability and guilt. That is how accountability transfers to an organization. The issue here is that we have identified that an unknown party of members have done terrible things, and the continuing act of the organization keeps the identities hidden, as well as the extent.

Prosecuting the individuals comes after cracking the org's silence.

Yes RCC is a tough nut, with a defense budget comparable to that of the US military. But it could be cracked if we had the collective will.

 

[Bomb#20]

At AF, I would recommend care in claiming organizations don't have feelings. They are bigger, more alien, more complicated than individual human feelings, but organizations do have personalities, actions, reactions, responses, and systemic priorities resulting from the arrangements of people in it's hierarchy and the rules they are operating on.

In short, these are what it is to have feelings.

Lots of complex systems have actions, reactions, responses, and systemic priorities, and the sorts of individual quirks people metaphorically label "personalities". Sponges, Venus fly traps, airplane autopilots. Doesn't mean they have feelings.

 

[Arctish]

.. comprised of individuals.



Like Ohio State University is "responsible" for the silence of Gym Jordan.
I'd posit that it would be more appropriate to prosecute Jordan for his negligence than to sue OSU for money or shut them down.
Once Jordan is in jail, maybe it's worth looking at punitive measures against OSU to keep them from harboring more Gym Jordans, but without prosecuting the individual(s) first, it's a hollow gesture.

That is the shape of said accountability and guilt. That is how accountability transfers to an organization. The issue here is that we have identified that an unknown party of members have done terrible things, and the continuing act of the organization keeps the identities hidden, as well as the extent.

Prosecuting the individuals comes after cracking the org's silence.

Exactly.

That's why, when the child sex abuse scandal in Boston broke wide open, it was the evidence the Church hierarchy was deliberately moving abusers from parish to parish to keep their crimes hidden that made it stick, not just knowing that some priests had abused some kids. Porter, Geoghan, Paquin, Shanley, etc. would still be free to molest kids if the Boston Globe hadn't uncovered enough evidence to indict the Archdiocese of Boston. Eventually, enough evidence came to light in many different cities and countries to indict the Church as a whole, although so far there hasn't been a true accounting. The RCC has been able to dodge or deflect most efforts to get at their records so we still don't know the true scope of the abuse.

I expect it will be much the same with the residential schools. The RCC will fight to keep the records hidden even as the bodies of thousands more victims are discovered on its properties.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Not who, what.

Then who are you blaming for immoral behavior?

It is an institution, one of many institutional religions aka organized religions. It has it's own culture, belief system, structure, and purpose. It is wealthy and well organized. And it is notorious for human rights abuses such as the Inquisition, the enslavement of Native peoples of the Americas and Polynesia, and sexual abuse of children. It is also known to have run schools filled with kidnapped children in which many were physically and emotionally abused, and where thousand died and were discarded like trash.

Actually, the institution only does that in the sense that some of its leaders, members, do. There is no mind beyond that of individual humans. It did not run schools, except in the sense some of its members, leaders, etc., did.

In an earlier post I asked you if you understand what a corporation is. Do you?

The word has more than one meaning. You might be talking about some of the activity of some people, or about some legal fiction.

Do you know why a corporation can be sued, fined, or otherwise penalized for the results of its acts or failure to act?

Yes, legally. I'm talking about morality. A corporation cannot act immorally except in the sense some of its members do that, because except in that sense, it has no mind

I ask because if you don't understand that a non-human, non-living legal entity such as a corporation can be held accountable for the impact it has on people and communities, you'll never understand why the RCC is accountable for those neglected and possibly murdered kids.

If by 'held accountable' you mean "its" actions are examined and the "corporation" is punished, well, in the legal fiction sense, yes. In reality, a non-mind cannot suffer, so it cannot be (successfully) punished. The owners, directors, etc., of the corporation can be punished. And in the moral sense, only individual humans or other monkeys, whatever deserve punishment. Not non-minds.

Not just the employees and clergy. The Church itself is accountable.

In the sense of paying compensation, in the legal sense? Sure. In the sense it is just to use the assets for compensation? Probably some of them, depending on who uses what. But in the sense of moral guilt, beyond the humans (employees, clearly)? No.

 

[Arctish]

Then who are you blaming for immoral behavior?



Actually, the institution only does that in the sense that some of its leaders, members, do. There is no mind beyond that of individual humans. It did not run schools, except in the sense some of its members, leaders, etc., did.

In an earlier post I asked you if you understand what a corporation is. Do you?

The word has more than one meaning. You might be talking about some of the activity of some people, or about some legal fiction.

Do you know why a corporation can be sued, fined, or otherwise penalized for the results of its acts or failure to act?

Yes, legally. I'm talking about morality. A corporation cannot act immorally except in the sense some of its members do that, because except in that sense, it has no mind

I ask because if you don't understand that a non-human, non-living legal entity such as a corporation can be held accountable for the impact it has on people and communities, you'll never understand why the RCC is accountable for those neglected and possibly murdered kids.

If by 'held accountable' you mean "its" actions are examined and the "corporation" is punished, well, in the legal fiction sense, yes. In reality, a non-mind cannot suffer, so it cannot be (successfully) punished. The owners, directors, etc., of the corporation can be punished. And in the moral sense, only individual humans or other monkeys, whatever deserve punishment. Not non-minds.

Not just the employees and clergy. The Church itself is accountable.

In the sense of paying compensation, in the legal sense? Sure. In the sense it is just to use the assets for compensation? Probably some of them, depending on who uses what. But in the sense of moral guilt, beyond the humans (employees, clearly)? No.

So you do understand why a corporation can be sued for the harm it has done through its actions or failure to act, but you don't want to talk about it.

You just want to keep asking your nonsense question despite being shown your grammatical error.