New "Affirmative Action" nonsense

[AthenaAwakened]

You see what goes on in black households where there isn't a problem and you think it applies to all of them.

you're mind reading again and failing again.

Hell, I'm black and a certified diversity consultant with eight years of teaching experience in the public schools of NC who has given expert testimony in court and before the state assembly on discrimination practices in hiring and education and even i can not speak with the certainty and omniscience about the black family and black students behaviors that you do. Absolutely stunning.

What I've seen of the field you're in says that you're less qualified than the average man in the street. You have "learned" that differences mean discrimination--something that's often not true.

instead of telling me what I think, why don't you ever ask me what I think? Cuz you are really awful at the mind reading thing.

Do black people in total or in the majority not value education, not set educational goals, not plan their educational track well, etc., because we don't value education, or we don't value the education we are getting?

Strawman!

Nobody is saying all blacks do anything!

read the question again and see that I'm not saying that and I noticed that you didn't answer what I actually asked. If you are too scared to answer the questions, don't waste my time.

 

[Toni]

Yeah, it is clear that you and almost all AA supporters expect (or more accurately presume) that, but it is a baseless assumption that rests on the additional presumption that racial discrimination in admissions decisions is the only possible admissions factor that could relate to race in any way. That is silly and factually just plain false. First, blacks are much more likely to drop out of high school, and that makes getting into college tough. Second, black you do graduate are much less likely to apply to college and that makes getting accepted tough. Third, blacks are much less likely to voluntarily take extra math courses beyond the 2 required by most high schools (they don't get beyond Algebra) and much less likely to take any honors courses in any of the subjects (ACT and SAT are both highly predicted by whether students took honors courses and core subjects as electives). Fourth, blacks are less likely to engage in volunteer work and community service that can help boost an application with mediocre academic scores. Fifth, blacks do worse in their high school courses. Blacks are less likely to get support at home with their school work (in large part due to much higher rates of absentee fathers). Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities. Basically, think of everything that impacts being intellectually and emotionally prepared to do well in college and to be motivated to try and get into college, and their is a high probability that black do worse on most of those factors. For example, we don't have data on it, but it would be highly consistent with what we do know if blacks were much less likely to be willing to do extra credit to boost their HSGPA when given the opportunity. IOW, teachers usually do things to allow students who try hard but struggle to pull up their grade. But most of these probably widen the black-white gap even more because the white kids who don't need the extra points are more likely to do the extra work than the black kids that do need the extra points.

In sum, in a world where admissions offices bent over backwards to find every excuse to admit as many blacks as they could while still pretending its a merit based decision, there would still be notably fewer blacks in college than in the population. Which is in fact the situation we have now. None of the above requires accepting any kind of racist assumptions of inherent black inferiority. In part, this is because many of the factors are not about ability but about effort, preparation, goals, and values. But also because cultural differences can shape all of these things independent of any innate abilities to learn or innate personality traits.
Are some of those cultural differences due to experiences in poor and violent neighborhoods, racism by police, family cultures shaped by Jim Crow, and Slavery? Absolutely. But none of that is college admissions discrimination and none of it can be undone by college admissions decisions and efforts to do so are as or more likely to cause more such problems than "correct" for them (such as AA increasing failure rates in college among minority groups and thus increasing stereotype beliefs about lesser ability not only among whites but among blacks along with increasing anti-school attitudes). Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages. So, use of race as a proxy for these is using a chainsaw to do surgery and will lead to many mistakes and harm.

Finally, Hispanics make up about 16.5% of college students that matches their 16.9% of the population. So, any claims of racial discrimination in admissions would have to assert that the same racists who don't want blacks in colleges, have no problem with Hispanics and like Asians more than whites.

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

For many of the reasons described above, none of which have to do with the test being at all unfair as a measure of blacks aptitude and intellectual and motivational readiness for college education. In fact, those factors predict such differences in test scores the more valid those tests are. Given that blacks don't take as hard of courses, don't do as well in courses, and all the other factors, any test that didn't show blacks with lower avg scores would have to be invalid as a measure of intellectual readiness for college.

What do you suppose is/are the reason(s) that certain groups are more likely to drop out of school or to do poorly in school?

 

[Toni]

You do indeed seem to be deeply, hopelessly confused. On the other forum, I never claimed GPA and MCAT were the last word, either.

If there were no discrimination in the U.S., I would expect that university and professional school enrollment would more closely reflect the above percentages.

Why on earth would you expect that? Do you think each racial group achieves the same outcomes on GPA and MCAT?

As it stands, Asians make up a significantly smaller portion of the U.S. population than blacks or Hispanics, yet comprise a much higher proportion of medical students.

Yes, and we both know why: it's because Asians as a group score significantly higher on GPA and MCAT than any other ethnic group. But, in fact, Asians are underrepresented compared to their achievement. Under-represented. Do you know why? It's because of discrimination by race by medical schools, which hurts Asians and Whites.

But I did like how you lumped Asians in with Whites.

No, I did not. You did that.

Makes it easier to prove your point. Lump ANY other racial or ethnic group in with whites and you get a majority because whites are the majority. While Asians are less than a third the number of Hispanics and only about 40 percent the number of Blacks.

Asians, as a group, are the highest achievers on GPA and MCAT. It is therefore no mystery that the composition of medical students accepted reflects this.

I know you don't like the reality that medical schools favour students with higher GPAs and MCAT scores, but that's something you'll have to take up with the medical schools.

You are confusing access to calories with nutrition.

No, I'm not. Indeed, I already mentioned that obesity did not necessarily overrule the possibility of malnutrition. Do you read my posts?

And seem to be ignorant of the fact that indeed, children do go to bed hungry and go to school hungry. To my great shame, approximately 14.5 percent of the U.S. population faces food insecurity.

So, only Blacks and Latinos face food insecurity, and no Whites or Asians do?

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

Not just standardised tests, but GPA too.

I doubt there's any one reason why there are racial discrepancies. But I do know that, whatever the reasons, no amount of discrimination against Whites and Asians in medical school admissions can make the gap disappear.

Internet connection keeps failing and longer replies have been eaten a couple of times now.

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

 

[SimpleDon]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

And while hunger and poor nutrition certainly do cause poor academic achievement that's no reason to let them into medical school. Fix the problem, don't pretend the problem doesn't exist.

The thing is fixing it isn't easy and almost certainly will cost the government big bucks. Sticking your head in the sand and blaming discrimination pretends to do something while spending very little. Never mind the big cost to the business world, that's not on the books.

You have hit the nail on the head. Legalized racial discrimination was picked as a solution not because it is effective, which it isn't, but because it is cheap. Rather than spending the money to fix the real problems we have this ineffective program that divides us.

Once again, we have been divided into fighting a war based on race to divert our attention from the war that the vast majority of the people are losing, the class war that the 1% are winning against the 99%.

This is why I would recommend to the supporters of affirmative action that they give up on it and instead fight the real war, a war that the 1% have convincingly won for thirty years now.

Programs like this, even programs like welfare, food stamps and earned income credits are always going to be attacked as handouts and people getting something for nothing. The only long term solution is to increase wages and to decrease profits to restore income equality. To realize that we are here to support and to nurture people, not capital.

 

[SimpleDon]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

.....

Admission to medical school is not a prize that you are owed because you are smart and got good grades and high scores. It is how we train the doctors that we need. I listed a number of other factors that are used to select the candidates, a least the ones that were important when my son went through it in 2005 and 2006. They were discriminating against applicants who spoke only English and who lived in the suburbs for example. Not because hate people who only speak English or who live in the suburbs but because they need doctors who are bilingual and they need doctors in the cities and in the rural areas.

GPA's and MCAT scores really are not important at all, not because academic and intellectual achievement aren't important, but because the huge number of applicants means that they have no problems having enough applicants who have the required academic and intellectual achievement. They have three to four times the number required.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If the goal of affirmative action is to even an uneven playing field, wouldn't it be better to target it towards socioeconomic status as opposed to race?

If an Irish immigrant sets up in a mostly English community and they discriminate against him and doom his family to several generations of self-reinforcing poverty as a result, should his descendants be denied the opportunity to even the playing field because his experience isn't common amongst white people? If a black guy lives in a palatial mansion and spends his vacations fox hunting with Prince William, does it make sense to give him an advantage to even out the disadvantages that other black people are forced to face?

If blacks tend to be poorer than average then programs targetting income level will disproportionally benefit black people and give the extra bump to those ones who need it in order to compete fairly with those who enjoy other advantages. At the same time, those who are starting from behind for other reasons will also be able to benefit and compensating advantages won't be wasted on those who don't need it but who just happen to share a race with those who generally do.

 

[Toni]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

.....

Admission to medical school is not a prize that you are owed because you are smart and got good grades and high scores. It is how we train the doctors that we need. I listed a number of other factors that are used to select the candidates, a least the ones that were important when my son went through it in 2005 and 2006. They were discriminating against applicants who spoke only English and who lived in the suburbs for example. Not because hate people who only speak English or who live in the suburbs but because they need doctors who are bilingual and they need doctors in the cities and in the rural areas.

GPA's and MCAT scores really are not important at all, not because academic and intellectual achievement aren't important, but because the huge number of applicants means that they have no problems having enough applicants who have the required academic and intellectual achievement. They have three to four times the number required.

Overall, about 50% of applicants are accepted to medical school.

Your points are quite on target.

 

[doubtingt]

Yeah, it is clear that you and almost all AA supporters expect (or more accurately presume) that, but it is a baseless assumption that rests on the additional presumption that racial discrimination in admissions decisions is the only possible admissions factor that could relate to race in any way. That is silly and factually just plain false. First, blacks are much more likely to drop out of high school, and that makes getting into college tough. Second, black you do graduate are much less likely to apply to college and that makes getting accepted tough. Third, blacks are much less likely to voluntarily take extra math courses beyond the 2 required by most high schools (they don't get beyond Algebra) and much less likely to take any honors courses in any of the subjects (ACT and SAT are both highly predicted by whether students took honors courses and core subjects as electives). Fourth, blacks are less likely to engage in volunteer work and community service that can help boost an application with mediocre academic scores. Fifth, blacks do worse in their high school courses. Blacks are less likely to get support at home with their school work (in large part due to much higher rates of absentee fathers). Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities. Basically, think of everything that impacts being intellectually and emotionally prepared to do well in college and to be motivated to try and get into college, and their is a high probability that black do worse on most of those factors. For example, we don't have data on it, but it would be highly consistent with what we do know if blacks were much less likely to be willing to do extra credit to boost their HSGPA when given the opportunity. IOW, teachers usually do things to allow students who try hard but struggle to pull up their grade. But most of these probably widen the black-white gap even more because the white kids who don't need the extra points are more likely to do the extra work than the black kids that do need the extra points.

In sum, in a world where admissions offices bent over backwards to find every excuse to admit as many blacks as they could while still pretending its a merit based decision, there would still be notably fewer blacks in college than in the population. Which is in fact the situation we have now. None of the above requires accepting any kind of racist assumptions of inherent black inferiority. In part, this is because many of the factors are not about ability but about effort, preparation, goals, and values. But also because cultural differences can shape all of these things independent of any innate abilities to learn or innate personality traits.
Are some of those cultural differences due to experiences in poor and violent neighborhoods, racism by police, family cultures shaped by Jim Crow, and Slavery? Absolutely. But none of that is college admissions discrimination and none of it can be undone by college admissions decisions and efforts to do so are as or more likely to cause more such problems than "correct" for them (such as AA increasing failure rates in college among minority groups and thus increasing stereotype beliefs about lesser ability not only among whites but among blacks along with increasing anti-school attitudes). Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages. So, use of race as a proxy for these is using a chainsaw to do surgery and will lead to many mistakes and harm.

Finally, Hispanics make up about 16.5% of college students that matches their 16.9% of the population. So, any claims of racial discrimination in admissions would have to assert that the same racists who don't want blacks in colleges, have no problem with Hispanics and like Asians more than whites.

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

For many of the reasons described above, none of which have to do with the test being at all unfair as a measure of blacks aptitude and intellectual and motivational readiness for college education. In fact, those factors predict such differences in test scores the more valid those tests are. Given that blacks don't take as hard of courses, don't do as well in courses, and all the other factors, any test that didn't show blacks with lower avg scores would have to be invalid as a measure of intellectual readiness for college.

First, it is amazing how well you know what goes on black households and minds and what the desires of black people are. It is stunning in fact.

Not amazing at all. I just actually pay attention to empirical science. What is amazing is that you do not.
There is data relevant to everything I mentioned. Also, negative attitudes toward school within the black community is something commonly acknowledged by leaders in the black community. As for black students not taking the elective courses in high school that prep them for college and for the SAT and ACT, National samples from the College Board show that blacks are only 1/2 to 2/3 as likely to enroll in such high school courses.

Note that the figure comes not from some right wing rag, but the "Journal of Blacks in Higher Education" that was founded by a well known civil rights activist (Theodore Lamont Cross) that is dedicated to improving higher education prospects for black students.

Do black people in total or in the majority not value education, not set educational goals, not plan their educational track well, etc., because we don't value education, or we don't value the education we are getting?

First, note that nothing I said implies that all or even a majority of blacks place no value on education. What I said was "Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities." In fact I went to lengths to refute the strawman mischaracterization that you predictably created because you react with emotional ideology and don't bother to try and comprehend the points you are reacting to. I said "Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages."
IOW words a majority of blacks could highly value formal schooling and most of the rest modestly value it, yet the average level of support for formal schooling could be lower than it i among whites, thus being one of many factors that contribute to poorer school performance.
Also, I was referring to the schooling opportunities they have that prep from for college admission and college courses. Might they have more value on other forms of "education" broadly construed? Sure, but that is irrelevant to the issue that their poor representation among college students is due partly to the contribution the attitudes about their actual schooling that contribute to poor preparation for college in the form of taking college prep courses in high school, dropping out (their drop out rates are higher in every single State), getting poorer grades, etc.. Yes, all of those are impacting by things other than attitudes, but attitudes play a role and attitudes were only one of the many factors I listed.
As for what drives academic attitudes, that is a separate issue from the fact that less positive attitudes will lower college admissions via a number of pathways, and thus separate from the falseness of Toni's admitted assumption that blacks being lower than 13% of college students must be due to discrimination by college admissions. But turning to this separate issue, there is some research on academic aspirations among black students looking at a host of potential predictors. This study looking specifically at black youths found that the strongest predictors of educational aspirations were positive attitudes about schoolwork, their grades, their parents involvement in helping them plan for college, and their parents expectations about going to college. Among black males (but not females) having lower aspirations and more negative attitudes about schoolwork both predicted whether the student made use of the educational resources in their community. Again, is historic racism a factor in these things? Of course. But that admitting one student over based on race (which is what AA does) just because the students poorer preparation for college might be partly due to historic racism is itself racist, immoral, unjust, and ineffective at correcting the problems that give rise to the discrepancies in college preparation.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yeah, it is clear that you and almost all AA supporters expect (or more accurately presume) that, but it is a baseless assumption that rests on the additional presumption that racial discrimination in admissions decisions is the only possible admissions factor that could relate to race in any way. That is silly and factually just plain false. First, blacks are much more likely to drop out of high school, and that makes getting into college tough. Second, black you do graduate are much less likely to apply to college and that makes getting accepted tough. Third, blacks are much less likely to voluntarily take extra math courses beyond the 2 required by most high schools (they don't get beyond Algebra) and much less likely to take any honors courses in any of the subjects (ACT and SAT are both highly predicted by whether students took honors courses and core subjects as electives). Fourth, blacks are less likely to engage in volunteer work and community service that can help boost an application with mediocre academic scores. Fifth, blacks do worse in their high school courses. Blacks are less likely to get support at home with their school work (in large part due to much higher rates of absentee fathers). Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities. Basically, think of everything that impacts being intellectually and emotionally prepared to do well in college anqd to be motivated to try and get into college, and their is a high probability that black do worse on most of those factors. For example, we don't have data on it, but it would be highly consistent with what we do know if blacks were much less likely to be willing to do extra credit to boost their HSGPA when given the opportunity. IOW, teachers usually do things to allow students who try hard but struggle to pull up their grade. But most of these probably widen the black-white gap even more because the white kids who don't need the extra points are more likely to do the extra work than the black kids that do need the extra points.

In sum, in a world where admissions offices bent over backwards to find every excuse to admit as many blacks as they could while still pretending its a merit based decision, there would still be notably fewer blacks in college than in the population. Which is in fact the situation we have now. None of the above requires accepting any kind of racist assumptions of inherent black inferiority. In part, this is because many of the factors are not about ability but about effort, preparation, goals, and values. But also because cultural differences can shape all of these things independent of any innate abilities to learn or innate personality traits.
Are some of those cultural differences due to experiences in poor and violent neighborhoods, racism by police, family cultures shaped by Jim Crow, and Slavery? Absolutely. But none of that is college admissions discrimination and none of it can be undone by college admissions decisions and efforts to do so are as or more likely to cause more such problems than "correct" for them (such as AA increasing failure rates in college among minority groups and thus increasing stereotype beliefs about lesser ability not only among whites but among blacks along with increasing anti-school attitudes). Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages. So, use of race as a proxy for these is using a chainsaw to do surgery and will lead to many mistakes and harm.

Finally, Hispanics make up about 16.5% of college students that matches their 16.9% of the population. So, any claims of racial discrimination in admissions would have to assert that the same racists who don't want blacks in colleges, have no problem with Hispanics and like Asians more than whites.

Why do you think that white and Asian Americans score higher than do black or Hispanic Americans on standardized tests in the U.S.?

For many of the reasons described above, none of which have to do with the test being at all unfair as a measure of blacks aptitude and intellectual and motivational readiness for college education. In fact, those factors predict such differences in test scores the more valid those tests are. Given that blacks don't take as hard of courses, don't do as well in courses, and all the other factors, any test that didn't show blacks with lower avg scores would have to be invalid as a measure of intellectual readiness for college.

First, it is amazing how well you know what goes on black households and minds and what the desires of black people are. It is stunning in fact.

Not amazing at all. I just actually pay attention to empirical science. What is amazing is that you do not.
There is data relevant to everything I mentioned. Also, negative attitudes toward school within the black community is something commonly acknowledged by leaders in the black community. As for black students not taking the elective courses in high school that prep them for college and for the SAT and ACT, National samples from the College Board show that blacks are only 1/2 to 2/3 as likely to enroll in such high school courses.

Note that the figure comes not from some right wing rag, but the "Journal of Blacks in Higher Education" that was founded by a well known civil rights activist (Theodore Lamont Cross) that is dedicated to improving higher education prospects for black students.

Do black people in total or in the majority not value education, not set educational goals, not plan their educational track well, etc., because we don't value education, or we don't value the education we are getting?

First, note that nothing I said implies that all or even a majority of blacks place no value on education. What I said was "Anti-school attitudes are stronger in black communities." In fact I went to lengths to refute the strawman mischaracterization that you predictably created because you react with emotional ideology and don't bother to try and comprehend the points you are reacting to. I said "Also, none of these factors are unique to minorities and exist among many white applicants. It is just a matter of group level averages."
IOW words a majority of blacks could highly value formal schooling and most of the rest modestly value it, yet the average level of support for formal schooling could be lower than it i among whites, thus being one of many factors that contribute to poorer school performance.
Also, I was referring to the schooling opportunities they have that prep from for college admission and college courses. Might they have more value on other forms of "education" broadly construed? Sure, but that is irrelevant to the issue that their poor representation among college students is due partly to the contribution the attitudes about their actual schooling that contribute to poor preparation for college in the form of taking college prep courses in high school, dropping out (their drop out rates are higher in every single State), getting poorer grades, etc.. Yes, all of those are impacting by things other than attitudes, but attitudes play a role and attitudes were only one of the many factors I listed.
As for what drives academic attitudes, that is a separate issue from the fact that less positive attitudes will lower college admissions via a number of pathways, and thus separate from the falseness of Toni's admitted assumption that blacks being lower than 13% of college students must be due to discrimination by college admissions. But turning to this separate issue, there is some research on academic aspirations among black students looking at a host of potential predictors. This study looking specifically at black youths found that the strongest predictors of educational aspirations were positive attitudes about schoolwork, their grades, their parents involvement in helping them plan for college, and their parents expectations about going to college. Among black males (but not females) having lower aspirations and more negative attitudes about schoolwork both predicted whether the student made use of the educational resources in their community. Again, is historic racism a factor in these things? Of course. But that admitting one student over based on race (which is what AA does) just because the students poorer preparation for college might be partly due to historic racism is itself racist, immoral, unjust, and ineffective at correcting the problems that give rise to the discrepancies in college preparation.

I want to know your opinion.

Are black students anti education or anti education they are getting?

And what constitute strong anti school sentiments in the black community?

 

[J842P]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you suppose is/are the reason(s) that certain groups are more likely to drop out of school or to do poorly in school?

Their upbringing.

Once you control properly race drops out as a factor, thus this isn't racial in nature.

 

[Toni]

What do you suppose is/are the reason(s) that certain groups are more likely to drop out of school or to do poorly in school?

Their upbringing.

Once you control properly race drops out as a factor, thus this isn't racial in nature.

Can you explain further?

 

[Toni]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

And while hunger and poor nutrition certainly do cause poor academic achievement that's no reason to let them into medical school. Fix the problem, don't pretend the problem doesn't exist.

The thing is fixing it isn't easy and almost certainly will cost the government big bucks. Sticking your head in the sand and blaming discrimination pretends to do something while spending very little. Never mind the big cost to the business world, that's not on the books.

You have hit the nail on the head. Legalized racial discrimination was picked as a solution not because it is effective, which it isn't, but because it is cheap. Rather than spending the money to fix the real problems we have this ineffective program that divides us.

Once again, we have been divided into fighting a war based on race to divert our attention from the war that the vast majority of the people are losing, the class war that the 1% are winning against the 99%.

This is why I would recommend to the supporters of affirmative action that they give up on it and instead fight the real war, a war that the 1% have convincingly won for thirty years now.

Programs like this, even programs like welfare, food stamps and earned income credits are always going to be attacked as handouts and people getting something for nothing. The only long term solution is to increase wages and to decrease profits to restore income equality. To realize that we are here to support and to nurture people, not capital.

I don't think this has anything to do with class war.

While I do not like AA it was almost certainly the least bad option at the time it was implemented. It did it's job, it broke the back of the rampant discrimination in this country. Once it no longer became acceptable behavior market forces would finish the job--one of the routes to getting rich is identifying something the market has underpriced and exploiting the mistake.

Unfortunately, this created an industry whose business it was rooting out discrimination. This partly is the various government regulators, it's partially the lawyers and there are some odds and ends also. That industry fights very hard to avoid having their jobs destroyed.

We saw the same thing happen after Prohibition. All those booze cops suddenly had their jobs destroyed--and fought back. They pushed through a new vice to hunt: Drugs.

The real issue they should have been going after was pretty much wiped out in a generation. Lacking a proper target they have tried to find new targets--for example, college athletics. Fewer women than men are interested in the sort of time commitment that being on a sports team entails, yet it's considered discrimination if there aren't as many. If you can't find enough women you have to close men's teams to get equality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

.....

Admission to medical school is not a prize that you are owed because you are smart and got good grades and high scores. It is how we train the doctors that we need. I listed a number of other factors that are used to select the candidates, a least the ones that were important when my son went through it in 2005 and 2006. They were discriminating against applicants who spoke only English and who lived in the suburbs for example. Not because hate people who only speak English or who live in the suburbs but because they need doctors who are bilingual and they need doctors in the cities and in the rural areas.

GPA's and MCAT scores really are not important at all, not because academic and intellectual achievement aren't important, but because the huge number of applicants means that they have no problems having enough applicants who have the required academic and intellectual achievement. They have three to four times the number required.

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

 

[Metaphor]

Admission to medical school is not a prize that you are owed because you are smart and got good grades and high scores.

I did not claim it was.

It is how we train the doctors that we need. I listed a number of other factors that are used to select the candidates, a least the ones that were important when my son went through it in 2005 and 2006. They were discriminating against applicants who spoke only English and who lived in the suburbs for example. Not because hate people who only speak English or who live in the suburbs but because they need doctors who are bilingual and they need doctors in the cities and in the rural areas.

You suggest this as if this is the real reason for the racial discrepancy. Do you really think that? That more Black and Latino candidates are being selected because they're bilingual and/or live in the cities and rural areas?

Why do you think it's okay to discriminate against someone because of their current geography? It doesn't even make any sense anyway: if you need doctors in rural and city areas, you don't select people from there, you select people willing to work there. If no-one is willing to work there, you offer bonded scholarships to get people there.

GPA's and MCAT scores really are not important at all,

Medical schools evidently disagree with you, seeing as they select 95% of people in the highest MCAT/GPA grouping, and select fewer and fewer as GPA and MCAT declines.

not because academic and intellectual achievement aren't important, but because the huge number of applicants means that they have no problems having enough applicants who have the required academic and intellectual achievement. They have three to four times the number required.

The evidence shows you to be wrong, as GPA and MCAT have a huge effect on selection.

 

[Metaphor]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Out of interest, what kind of evidence would you require to make you doubt your current belief?

 

[Toni]

GPA and MCAT scores provide a threshold and do not alone establish suitability for a career in medicine.

Despite your position, white and Asian student comprise the overwhelming majority of medical students and graduates.

Links to hunger and poor nutrition ha e been well linked to poor academic achievement.

In fact, medical schools do try to include students from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds.

White and Asian students are under-represented compared to the pool of qualified applicants.

.....

Admission to medical school is not a prize that you are owed because you are smart and got good grades and high scores. It is how we train the doctors that we need. I listed a number of other factors that are used to select the candidates, a least the ones that were important when my son went through it in 2005 and 2006. They were discriminating against applicants who spoke only English and who lived in the suburbs for example. Not because hate people who only speak English or who live in the suburbs but because they need doctors who are bilingual and they need doctors in the cities and in the rural areas.

GPA's and MCAT scores really are not important at all, not because academic and intellectual achievement aren't important, but because the huge number of applicants means that they have no problems having enough applicants who have the required academic and intellectual achievement. They have three to four times the number required.

I have no problem with additional languages being of value. Rural vs suburbs vs city has no value, though.

Really? Are you unaware that rural areas as well as inner cities face a shortage of doctors?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Whenever people outside of the black community (take note, not all African Americans life in the black community and not all white people drive through the black community with their windows rolled up and their doors locked) discuss the black community, they profess to know the hearts and minds of black people. They may give charts and graphs as evidence of their assertion, but in the end, they know, they just know that something is wrong with the black psyche, with the black spirit and until black people fix whatever is wrong, nothing will work and affirmative action, or poverty programs, or what ever policy directed at aiding black people will not work or worse, is racist against white people.

oh the horror.


Having lived and worked in the black community all my life, I think there is a trend about which you should know. Every mutual aid program for educational support and enrichment I have participated in, in the black community, where the program was run and populated by black people, has generated a waiting list to get in long before the first day of implementation. I take that to not be an attitude of anti-education in said community.

as for affirmative action in higher education, each state and in some cases, each school has its own guidelines and stated goals, so offering up general arguments will tend toward misleading conclusions.

Every year, students are turned away from higher education for many reasons, not the least of which is limited space and resources, which has nothing to do with race but with funding. It even happens to students of color.

Now what most students do is go to another school, or wait until next year and get into that one, or first go to another one and then transfer into their first choice. Rare is student who sues and such a student seldom does so because s/he feels aggrieved but because the adults in the student's life have a cause to champion. But the headlines generated would lead one to believe that white students were being dragged out of admissions offices, kicking and screaming and then being banned from higher learning for life.

Outliers will always be found and put up on the stage to illustrate not a nationwide problem but a personal agenda. In this case, the cause is the right to be less than qualified but still get the benefit of the doubt. I understand this argument and can sympathize wholeheartedly with it. Lord knows I have had to deal with more than my fair share incompetent white folk in jobs and classes they had no clue about and no business in and before somebody jumps on their high horse, all y'all here can say the same thing, you just didn't think of them as white, just idiotic.

But it takes a high degree of nuance to pull off the argument and when dealing with anything a volatile as race, subtlety is the first casualty.

This case, however is not the "Gotcha" case that will end any all AA programs henceforth and forevermore. Politically speaking, AA is too good a war drum to beat. Make the most rational and generous of people into neo-confederates ready to take fort Sumter all over again and not because of what AA is, but because what they think it is. And understand, the university turned her down. And I don't see this young lady ever being admitted there. There is a suit but so far this young lady isn't keeping anyone out of anywhere except herself.

 

[Toni]

Most important question to me: Why don't you believe that, in the absence of discrimination, over time, differences in test scores (all) of different races, ethnic groups, minorities would disappear or flatten out? Why don't you believe that in the absence of discrimination, the proportion of students from various ethnic groups/minorities/races/whatever admitted to universities and professional schools would more closely reflect the actual portion of the population?

Why do you believe it would? Asians tend to score significantly higher than whites in most standardized tests. Do you suppose that is because Whites are discriminated against compared to Asians? Or could it be that levels of discrimination in a society are only a component of the overall picture with regards to educational outcomes?

I believe that intelligence and academic ability are not more heavily distributed among some ethnic and racial groups more than other groups.

What do you believe?

Out of interest, what kind of evidence would you require to make you doubt your current belief?

Après vous Monsieur.