How does God do anything?

[Sonny]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

If I was defending the idea of God, then I'd answer: "Because he's God." But since I'm honest and sensible, I'd say there's no way that an "immaterial being" can affect a material world. So even if this timeless, spaceless being were to exist, then it couldn't create the world or do anything else with it. That would include reading minds.

 

[Bomb#20]

If I was defending the idea of God, then I'd answer: "Because he's God." But since I'm honest and sensible, I'd say there's no way that an "immaterial being" can affect a material world. So even if this timeless, spaceless being were to exist, then it couldn't create the world or do anything else with it. That would include reading minds.

If I were defending the idea of God, then I'd answer: What we call the natural world is a simulation in the mind of a being intelligent enough to remember the entire state of the cosmos and to figure out all the consequences for that state of all the laws of physics he invented for it.

If we are rational materialists, we must accept that, just as our own consciousness is an emergent consequence of the innumerable unconscious movements of charge carriers in our neurons, likewise, a sufficiently detailed computer simulation of the same neurons, made up of innumerable unconscious arithmetic operations and conditional branches, would equally create consciousness. But a computer humans will within the next century probably have the technology to build can, even in principle, run only the same kinds of simulations that a sufficiently powerful mind could carry out consciously, just as a person reading a computer program can run it in her own mind, a billion times slower. It follows that a mind powerful enough to simulate the universe by thinking it through will by doing so create genuine new conscious beings, out of nothing but his own thoughts.

"Don't you see, when the imitator is perfect, so must be the imitation, and the semblance becomes the truth, the pretense a reality!" - Stanislaw Lem

 

[steve_bank]

God creted it, so he-she-it must be able to control it, like a cartoon animation.

To us mere humans a creation of god it is a mystery beyond our understanding....

 

[Keith&Co.]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

Examining how God does anything is very similar to questioning how blankets defeat monsters or how a rabbit's foot alters the roll of the dice. It's a comfort, not supposed to be a scientific examination of interacting phenomena.

 

[Elixir]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

Examining how God does anything is very similar to questioning how blankets defeat monsters or how a rabbit's foot alters the roll of the dice. It's a comfort, not supposed to be a scientific examination of interacting phenomena.

Oh, there are lots of causal connections, for those interested in pursuing scientific examinations. But they all run through the observer. That's why we have so many first hand accounts of resurrections, lotteries won and miracles performed, all attributed to God. Every such witness sez "prayza load!"; but nobody says "I saw God doing [whatever]".

 

[abaddon]

Everything's more meaningful if boring nature DIDN'T do it. How disappointing the "materialistic" explanation of anything is! The "How" explanations disenchant the world, the "Why" explanations ("He did it for YOU!") makes the world feel enchanted. So if you figured out the "how" of God's magic, you'll have stripped away the magic and made him into just another bit of droll, boring reality. God wouldn't be a god anymore if you pulled the curtain back.

 

[Drew2008]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

I don't have any idea. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

 

[Drew2008]

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe? Does he just think stuff and then it happens? How can he read the minds of seven billion people at once? I’ve never heard a good answer to the question. “Because he’s god“ doesn’t count.

If I was defending the idea of God, then I'd answer: "Because he's God." But since I'm honest and sensible, I'd say there's no way that an "immaterial being" can affect a material world. So even if this timeless, spaceless being were to exist, then it couldn't create the world or do anything else with it. That would include reading minds.

I'd say there's no way that an "immaterial being" can affect a material world.

Not because that's an established fact...this is merely a belief statement true? If immaterial or transcendent forces didn't cause the universe what did? The material forces we are familiar with is what came into existence not what caused there existence. Unless you believe the universe came into existence un-caused out of nothing but that would only be another belief statement.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't have any idea. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

What are these non-god, mindless forces you are talking about? What are god forces? Are these immaterial, transcendent forces? What are immaterial, transcendent forces? Are these what you mean by god forces? What are they exactly? Are they like electromagnetism or gravity or what?

 

[Drew2008]

I don't have any idea. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

What are these non-god, mindless forces you are talking about? What are god forces?

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist. Atheists typically claim it wasn't God because God doesn't exist (classic circular reasoning) or more often than not they attribute it to naturalistic causes that unintentionally caused the universe, the laws of physics, stars, space and time and life to exist. The OP post asked by what mechanism did God cause the universe to exist as if not knowing that invalidates the claim. There are many things scientists and engineers accomplish and cause to exist and I have no idea how they do it. That doesn't invalidate my belief they created such things intelligently. I suspect no one here has any idea how natural forces caused natural forces to come into existence or why they would cause laws of physics humans depend on.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I don't have any idea. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

What are these non-god, mindless forces you are talking about? What are god forces?

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist. Atheists typically claim it wasn't God because God doesn't exist (classic circular reasoning) or more often than not they attribute it to naturalistic causes that unintentionally caused the universe, the laws of physics, stars, space and time and life to exist. The OP post asked by what mechanism did God cause the universe to exist as if not knowing that invalidates the claim. There are many things scientists and engineers accomplish and cause to exist and I have no idea how they do it. That doesn't invalidate my belief they created such things intelligently. I suspect no one here has any idea how natural forces caused natural forces to come into existence or why they would cause laws of physics humans depend on.

So you are saying that god forces are not natural things? What exactly are things that are not natural? I'm not aware of any.

When we find out that the universe is expanding and accelerating and we conclude there is something causing this behavior that we have not discovered yet and cannot explain, like the ancients couldn't explain earthquakes or vulcanism, you are saying we should conclude what, that there is something "not natural" involved? Like what? Are these your immaterial, transcendent god forces? What exactly are they?

It sounds like you are saying that if we do not know something then there are immaterial, transcendent god forces involved that are not natural, but you aren't saying what they are.

If you are unable to tell me what these "forces" are, would I be correct to conclude that your position is to equate human ignorance with immaterial, transcendent, non-natural god forces?

 

[Keith&Co.]

.

Atheists typically claim it wasn't God because God doesn't exist

Typically? You can, then, show this to be a common claim? And i really don't think that qualifies as circular reasoning. It's more of the expected consequences. If there are no gods, they probably didn't create shit.

Circular reasoning has to fold back in on itself. God didn't create the universe because it was created by non-god forces, that sort of thing.

more often than not they attribute it to naturalistic causes that unintentionally caused the universe, the laws of physics, stars, space and time and life to exist.

So, people who think that naturalistic forces cause everything attribute everything to naturalistic forces, yes. And? This is a summary. Did you mean to actually criticize us, or something?

The OP post asked by what mechanism did God cause the universe to exist as if not knowing that invalidates the claim.

And you turn it back around to naturalistic claims, because uou have no answer, and all creationism is reactionary, anyway. Use the other guy's attack as your own, just ineptly.

There are many things scientists and engineers accomplish and cause to exist

What? What the hell does any engineer cause to exist? Everything is made out of things that already exist. We just reshape or otherwise process everything.
If engineers can cause new things yo exist, that changes everything.

 

[Elixir]

What are these non-god, mindless forces you are talking about? What are god forces? Are these immaterial, transcendent forces? What are immaterial, transcendent forces? Are these what you mean by god forces? What are they exactly? Are they like electromagnetism or gravity or what?

Boy, you sure ask hard questions!
I’ll step out on a limb and venture that whatever “forces created the universe”, are forces that existed.
What forces created those forces? Well, prior ones of course.
From there it’s turtles all the way down.

 

[Elixir]

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist

Sorry Drew. God is an answer to the question “why did a universe come to exist”, not an explanation of anything at all.

 

[Drew2008]

So you are saying that god forces are not natural things? What exactly are things that are not natural? I'm not aware of any.

When we find out that the universe is expanding and accelerating and we conclude there is something causing this behavior that we have not discovered yet and cannot explain, like the ancients couldn't explain earthquakes or vulcanism, you are saying we should conclude what, that there is something "not natural" involved? Like what? Are these your immaterial, transcendent god forces? What exactly are they?

It sounds like you are saying that if we do not know something then there are immaterial, transcendent god forces involved that are not natural, but you aren't saying what they are.

If you are unable to tell me what these "forces" are, would I be correct to conclude that your position is to equate human ignorance with immaterial, transcendent, non-natural god forces?

The natural vs not natural distinction is bogus. Anything that happens no matter how bizarre or unexpected if its observed, and it happens is natural. If it turns out we owe our existence to a transcendent being that would be natural too. What would be unnatural about it? If it turns out we owe our existence to a scientist from another universe what would be unnatural about that? We have no say so in what is or isn't natural.

When we find out that the universe is expanding and accelerating and we conclude there is something causing this behavior that we have not discovered yet and cannot explain, like the ancients couldn't explain earthquakes or vulcanism, you are saying we should conclude what, that there is something "not natural" involved? Like what? Are these your immaterial, transcendent god forces? What exactly are they?

I don't care for the word immaterial because it implies its less than this material world we exist in. If this universe was caused and designed to exist it was by a more real source than this material world which is artificial. Transcendent is the best word. Like for instance the scientists, engineers and IT people who created a simulated universe are transcendent to it.

I originally wrote...

I don't have any idea [how God did anything]. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

The point being if we look at theism vs atheism as an equation we look for equal things on either side of that equation. We can then cross them out. This post was started as a challenge

What is the actual mechanism by which God can affect the natural world? How did he create the universe?

I'm pointing out those who don't believe we owe existence to God or a Creator or a bunch of scientists from a long gone universe have no better alternative explanation. By what actual means did naturalistic forces (that didn't exist yet) create the universe? If your lack of an answer doesn't count against your belief a Creator doesn't exist why should my lack of an answer matter? Its not expected I should know how God caused a universe to exist anymore than Neanderthals would know how to create a nuclear bomb.

 

[Bomb#20]

I don't have any idea. Do you know how non-God or mindless forces caused the universe to exist? Can you explain why such forces would cause life to exist? Does your lack of knowledge how such came about deter you from believing it came about accidentally? If you respond that's just how nature did it your response is just as vacuous.

What are these non-god, mindless forces you are talking about? What are god forces?

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist.

No it isn't. The God you're postulating is alive. If a God exists then the universe evidently allows a God to exist, and a God counts as a life form, so the universe evidently was already allowing life to exist before God did anything to help out. So whatever the explanation is for why there's a universe that allows life, throwing a God into the narrative does not provide it. You might as well try to explain the origin of Romeo and Juliet by proposing that Shakespeare found it in an old manuscript and pretended he wrote it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm pointing out those who don't believe we owe existence to God or a Creator or a bunch of scientists from a long gone universe have no better alternative explanation. By what actual means did naturalistic forces (that didn't exist yet) create the universe? If your lack of an answer doesn't count against your belief a Creator doesn't exist why should my lack of an answer matter? Its not expected I should know how God caused a universe to exist anymore than Neanderthals would know how to create a nuclear bomb.

Just to clarify, you are stating that there is nothing unnatural, that whatever you mean by god or god forces it is ultimately something we can understand, observe, make predictions about, has material existence, quantify, etc. You are saying we can forget about and get beyond the bullshit labels that is language. We should recognize that discussions about angels on pinheads are neural stimuli only. You are claiming that there isn't anything ultimately unexplainable. We only react emotionally out of ignorance, assign it woo value, no different than a toddler believing bullshit stories about flying reindeer or ghosts, or adults telling stories about vampires or how their houses are haunted. I can agree with that.

So what you are ultimately talking about is human scientific intuition, that instinctive desire in many of us to understand the physical universe of which we are part.

Does that accurately reflect your position?

 

[James Brown]

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist

Sorry Drew. God is an answer to the question “why did a universe come to exist”, not an explanation of anything at all.

"Daddy, how did the magician pull the rabbit out of his hat?"

"By magic, son."

 

[Drew2008]

The answer God is a possible explanation to the question why a universe that allowed life came to exist

Sorry Drew. God is an answer to the question “why did a universe come to exist”, not an explanation of anything at all.

"Daddy, how did the magician pull the rabbit out of his hat?"

"By magic, son."

Do you have a non-magical explanation for how the universe came to be?