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Penn teammate speaks out against transgender swimmer Lia Thomas

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This story has been covered by multiple publications. The link below is to New York Post

A teammate of Lia Thomas on the University of Pennsylvania women’s swim team has spoken out as the transgender swimmer has shattered school records.

Before her transition, Thomas competed at Penn for three years as a male.

She recently set school records in the 200-meter freestyle and 500-meter freestyle in November. This past weekend, the record-breaking stretch continued, as Thomas set a school record in the 1650-meter freestyle. Her teammate Anna Kalandadze finished in second place — over 38 seconds behind Thomas.

An anonymous teammate of Thomas spoke to the website OutKick, claiming most members of the team have expressed displeasure over the situation to their coach, Mike Schnur.

“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach [Mike Schnur] just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said.

“When the whole team is together, we have to be like, ‘Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.’ It’s very fake.”

NCAA bylaws permit transgender athletes to compete as women after they have completed one year of testosterone suppression treatment.

The teammate, according to OutKick, said it’s plausible that Thomas could not only win national championships in women’s swimming, but break national women’s college records that were set by eventual Olympic gold medalists Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky.

Thomas’ best times swimming as a woman at Penn are about two seconds behind Franklin’s record in the 200, and about 10 seconds and 56 seconds behind Ledecky’s in the 500 and 1,600, respectively. However, Thomas’ best times while swimming as a male would break both of Ledecky’s records and fall fractions of a second behind Franklin’s.

“The Ivy League is not a fast league for swimming, so that’s why it’s particularly ridiculous that we could potentially have an NCAA champion. That’s unheard of coming from the Ivy League,” the teammate said.

“On paper, if Lia Thomas gets back down to Will Thomas’ best times, those numbers are female world records. Faster than all the times Katie Ledecky went in college. Faster than any other Olympian you can think of.”
 
Are you saying your opinion on its fairness doesn't matter, you can't be bothered to formulate an opinion, you do have an opinion but you don't want to tell me, or something else?
That is so convoluted I have no idea what you are asking.
 
I was asking you to explain what you meant by "it doesn't matter".
I see no adverse consequences that are meaningful in any way. Maybe if you put your thoughts about this I can clarify with your given context.
 
I was asking you to explain what you meant by "it doesn't matter".
I see no adverse consequences that are meaningful in any way. Maybe if you put your thoughts about this I can clarify with your given context.
My thoughts about it are this:
  • Mens and womens sports were separated by sex because men and women have different physiology
  • The separation has allowed women to compete in sports on a fair basis, as elite level women could not hope to compete against elite level men
  • Lia Thomas is biologically male, experienced a male puberty, and despite his identification as trans, has not changed sex (as that is a biological impossibility)
  • Therefore, it is unfair for Lia Thomas to compete with and against women, his 'womens' records are an illusion, and have robbed actual women of acclaim and opportunities they worked for.
In addition to the above, I would say Lia Thomas is a fucking cunt for doing so, the institutions and individuals supporting his participation are either complicit in his unethical behaviour, or have too much at stake to publically object to the unfairness because of the cultural power trans activists currently wield.
 
It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

At the beginning, I think it's entirely reasonable to make the requirement "no more than 2 years past the onset of puberty, in the absence of blockers."

Of course, the bad faith crew will howl and moan! Oh will they howl and moan!

"They are too young to know what they want!"

You know, this first argument sounds like the very reason we don't let kids have sex: because they are too young to understand it.

The thing is, when something happens and is forced on someone too young to understand, generally, well, that's the reason pedophilia is special among evil acts.

So when we have no choice but for something to happen, when people express at that age a desire for a specific thing to happen, and when not only is it in our power to fulfill some of that of which we do let happen them but also even have power to delay this onset so that they may consider... And then we force upon them an immediate and irreversible outcome that is none of those things, but exactly what they do not want...

Well, that carries that same burden as "pedophilia".

Congratulations, if this describes you, you want to rape a child with an unwanted puberty. I did a mental exercise to compare it to an unwanted rape pregnancy but they're both just completely fucked up.

"They will be sterilized!"

I could give a shit less of a fuck. They can adopt if they want a kid. It is far from certain, and as some have noted, we don't need more kids. As technology progresses this may not even be a concern in the long term.

Regardless, the people who make these arguments remind me of the doctors I hear stories bout on /r/childfree who patronize (mostly women) and either expect their husband's OK, second guesses their convictions, or otherwise flat out denies them. My visceral reaction when I see this is "my body, my choice; if you think my body, your choice, then your body my choice," I kIck them in the gonads until they break. Of course I wouldn't, but I would like to. Instead they would be getting a complaint filed with the state medical board, along with whatever other malignancy I can bring into the life of a gatekeeper on reproductive self determination.

@TomC will obviously agree with me that this is a spurious argument as well, I am sure, because of how they have argued we have enough people already.

"There will be false positives!"

That's why the blockers for those in identifiably questionable circumstances, so that their situation may be parsed.

In all honesty I would support unilateral youth choice to take blockers, without parental permission or consultation, universally.

Anything else is, well, we end up right back at the first whinge.

And conveniently, this solves the problem of testosterone exposure in leagues specifically formed because testosterone exposure creates a different competitive class
 
It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?
 
It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?
This is posed on the boundaries of "this person was born with (the organ that produces testosterone)", and "has only been off it for a year"

You reference testosterone exposure in your own OP.

We see you.

AM already burned through three, let's see how long it takes you.
 
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It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?
This is posed on the boundaries of "this person was born with (the organ that produces testosterone)", and "has only been off it for a year"

You reference testosterone exposure in your own OP.

No, I didn't. The OP quotes a story which quotes a policy. The policy is not my policy and it is a policy I disagree with.

Of course, it's a policy you disagree with, too.

But more to the point, I still have no idea why you came to the conclusion that testosterone exposure is the ONLY thing that should determine who someone competes with. This is not true, since age and disability are also dimensions any fair-minded person would use, but even in the narrow space of sex-based differences, why would it be a good principle?

We see you.

AM already burned through three, let's see how long it takes you.
I don't understand your sentence.
 
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It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?
This is posed on the boundaries of "this person was born with (the organ that produces testosterone)", and "has only been off it for a year"

You reference testosterone exposure in your own OP.

No, I didn't. The OP quotes a story which quotes a policy. The policy is not my policy and it is a policy I disagree with.

Of course, it's a policy you disagree with, too.

But more to the point, I still have no idea why you came to the conclusion that testosterone exposure is the ONLY thing that should determine who someone competes with. This is not true, since age and disability are also dimensions any fair-minded person would use, but even in the narrow space of sex-based differences, why would it be a good principle?
Ah, bad faith bringing up dimensions of consideration to declare someone "technically" wrong without actually addressing content. We aren't talking about disability. If you want to talk about whether "special" Olympics or age class groups or whatever are appropriate, start a new thread.

YOU are the one who makes tacit admissions that this orbits around "testosterone" not "gender" or "sex".

But that doesn't matter to bad faith.

We see you.

AM already burned through three, let's see how long it takes you.
I don't understand your sentence.

I didn't expect you to.

This is number two btw.
 
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It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.
I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?
This is posed on the boundaries of "this person was born with (the organ that produces testosterone)", and "has only been off it for a year"

You reference testosterone exposure in your own OP.

No, I didn't. The OP quotes a story which quotes a policy. The policy is not my policy and it is a policy I disagree with.

Of course, it's a policy you disagree with, too.

But more to the point, I still have no idea why you came to the conclusion that testosterone exposure is the ONLY thing that should determine who someone competes with. This is not true, since age and disability are also dimensions any fair-minded person would use, but even in the narrow space of sex-based differences, why would it be a good principle?
Ah, bad faith bringing up dimensions of consideration to declare someone "technically" wrong without actually addressing content.

You are wrong that testosterone exposure during puberty is the only relevant factor in considering fair competition, even in the narrow space of fairness along sex-based parameters.

YOU are the one who makes tacit admissions that this orbits around "testosterone" not "gender" or "sex".

I have not made any such admissions and if you think I have, I will explicitly disabuse you of them.

"Gender" or "gender identity" is completely irrelevant to fairness in sports. Nobody's gender should make any difference whatever with respect to whom it is fair they compete with.

"Testosterone" is also irrelevant, except that it's a performance enhancing drug and anybody taking testosterone is doping and it is not fair they compete.

But that doesn't matter to bad faith.

We see you.

AM already burned through three, let's see how long it takes you.
I don't understand your sentence.

I didn't expect you to.

This is number two btw.
Okay.
 
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In addition to the above, I would say Lia Thomas is a fucking cunt for doing so, the institutions and individuals supporting his participation are either complicit in his unethical behaviour, or have too much at stake to publically object to the unfairness because of the cultural power trans activists currently wield.
Whenever I hear people talk about imaginary "cultural power", I am always reminded of that Jon Stewart/Bernard Goldberg interview where it's pretty obvious "cultural power" is just code for, "I want to be a fuckwit and be immune from consequences". Especially when the people who bemoan about cultural power never talk about actual abuses of power. Considering trans activists are only asking for equality and not transparency, your irrational fear over it along with your Prager-esque insistence on addressing Lia Thomas as "he" is kinda obvious which side of the fence you are on. Good luck with that - I look forward to your next thread bemoaning the death of western civilization because a trans person won a hopscotch contest or something.

Besides, given your strict beliefs of laser precise definitions, by your logic Lia Thomas is a woman as she is a fucking cunt. Can't have a cunt and be a man as there are no shades of grey in your world of arguments.
 
In addition to the above, I would say Lia Thomas is a fucking cunt for doing so, the institutions and individuals supporting his participation are either complicit in his unethical behaviour, or have too much at stake to publically object to the unfairness because of the cultural power trans activists currently wield.
Whenever I hear people talk about imaginary "cultural power", I am always reminded of that Jon Stewart/Bernard Goldberg interview where it's pretty obvious "cultural power" is just code for, "I want to be a fuckwit and be immune from consequences".
It is not code. Trans activists have immense cultural power. Enough that JK Rowling was not included in the 20th anniversary celebration of the first Harry Potter movie, for example.

Especially when the people who bemoan about cultural power never talk about actual abuses of power. Considering trans activists are only asking for equality and not transparency, your irrational fear over it along with your Prager-esque insistence on addressing Lia Thomas as "he" is kinda obvious which side of the fence you are on.

Lia Thomas is an adult human male. "He/him/his" are the only honest pronouns to address him.
Good luck with that - I look forward to your next thread bemoaning the death of western civilization because a trans person won a hopscotch contest or something.
Trans people winning anything does not bother me in the slightest.

Adult human males competing as if they were women, against women, bothers me, whether those adult human males win or not.

Besides, given your strict beliefs of laser precise definitions, by your logic Lia Thomas is a woman as she is a fucking cunt.
Non. A fucking cunt is not synonymous with 'a woman'.

Can't have a cunt and be a man as there are no shades of grey in your world of arguments.
I see. You don't understand figurative language.

Lia Thomas does not have a vagina, because Lia Thomas is an adult human male.
 
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