Penn teammate speaks out against transgender swimmer Lia Thomas

[Metaphor]

It isn't fair, this is a stupid way to run a women's sport. All the sports bodies need to figure out a better way for trans athletes to compete in more suitable divisions.

I've pointed out NUMEROUS times now that this better way is to just remove "sex" and "gender" completely from the discussion. While these things are in the same idea system, different abstract relations to the thing that sports fairness divides on, the real and complete alignment of the pivot happens on hormonal advantages.

When someone has some mutation or condition or decision that exposes their body to testosterone for a long term period of time, and particularly while the skeleton is finalizing development THIS and ONLY THIS determines who someone ought be competing with.

How have you come to this conclusion?

This is posed on the boundaries of "this person was born with (the organ that produces testosterone)", and "has only been off it for a year"

You reference testosterone exposure in your own OP.

No, I didn't. The OP quotes a story which quotes a policy. The policy is not my policy and it is a policy I disagree with.

Of course, it's a policy you disagree with, too.

But more to the point, I still have no idea why you came to the conclusion that testosterone exposure is the ONLY thing that should determine who someone competes with. This is not true, since age and disability are also dimensions any fair-minded person would use, but even in the narrow space of sex-based differences, why would it be a good principle?

Ah, bad faith bringing up dimensions of consideration to declare someone "technically" wrong without actually addressing content.

You are wrong that testosterone exposure during puberty is the only relevant factor in considering fair competition, even in the narrow space of fairness along sex-based parameters.

YOU are the one who makes tacit admissions that this orbits around "testosterone" not "gender" or "sex".

I have not made any such admissions and if you think I have, I will explicitly disabuse you of them.

Cool story bro. So I have a giant pile of evidence that shows that testosterone exposure CAUSES A PUBERTY!

Um, okay?

Before that puberty, people who have organs that will produce testosterone are very similar in performance with people who do not.

Even if that were true--which you have not produced any evidence of--so what? There is no evidence that males who do not undergo a typical male puberty are indistinguishable from females in relevant ways for sporting fairness.

After puberty, people tend to look and perform a little different.

It's almost like testosterone/estrogen cause large impacts.

Yes, it does.

We can get into the with in-group between-group statistics, but either testosterone is what this is about, or you are trying to make it about the gross shape of the outside of people's bodies.

No. You are trying to make it about testosterone only. Testosterone exposure is not the only physiological difference relevant to sex differences between men and women.

"Gender" or "gender identity" is completely irrelevant to fairness in sports. Nobody's gender should make any difference whatever with respect to whom it is fair they compete with.[/QUOTE
Indeed, it should be decided on the basis of how their body has been modified by identifiable core circumstances.

Those circumstances are which hormones they have been exposed to and when.

Not the only relevant circumstance. The bodies of pre-pubescent boys are different to the bodies of pre-pubescent girls.

The major effect, orders of magnitude more generally impactful than any minor effect.

"Testosterone" is also irrelevant, except that it's a performance enhancing drug and anybody taking testosterone is doping and it is not fair they compete.

So, if you think testosterone exposure is not relevant, why do you bring up a whinge explicitly in your OP that "OnLy OfF T FoR a YeAr!!!111"?

Lia Thomas could be suppressing testosterone for a lifetime, and he would still be an adult human male. Testosterone is part of the relevant difference in athletic performance between men and women, but it is not all of it.

I am guessing it's because every post I have ever seen you make on trans people drips with disingenuousness

That you cannot do anything but strawman my posts is your problem, not mine.

But that doesn't matter to bad faith.

We see you.

AM already burned through three, let's see how long it takes you.

I don't understand your sentence.

I didn't expect you to.

This is number two btw.

Looks like you figured it out.

I didn't.

Now either you can discuss YOUR model about what physical factors, what chemicals which have changed their bodies, and thus which effects of which changes "ruin" people for competitive purposes within these leagues, or you can admit that you have not thought it through that far and your attacks come from somewhere else.

I propose that sports were separated by sex because men and women are physiologically different in ways that are relevant for performance. I also propose that mammals cannot change sex.

I've proposed a model that would work. Your posts reveal fear over discussing this.

I don't know what your model is, but I do not agree with your premises. Testosterone exposure at puberty is not the sole reason for the physical differences relevant to sports performance between men and women, and testosterone suppression is not sufficient to remove those differences.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

 

[Metaphor]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

 

[Jarhyn]

I will note that OP wants people to do their homework for them.

So I work on a sensor at work. The goal is, in many ways, a job wherein one of my primary responsibilities is in fact to parse between "significant" and "insignificant" sources of variation with respect to the outcomes.

So, some factors are largely relevant, and some are largely not.

I can for instance point to a thermal effect I noticed: the sensor values would go up or down when the system temperature changed.

This had two effects, one small and insignificant and one large and significant: the temperature change was modifying the resistance of a sensor and also the length and geometry of a coil around that sensor (among other things).

Now, with regards to sports there are clearly some differences, seemingly small and insignificant: early genetic factors create minor differences in skeletal shape.

But as has been seen time and again, especially in the development of trans teens (and oh how their existence makes my heart sing, especially when the bad faith crowd weeps bitter tears over the joy of others!) It is seen that it's the testosterone, the chemical which drives primary puberty, which creates of fairly uniform physical origination a very dimorphic result.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

I think that question is not at relevant or well formed. Ask it again and this time don't inject load into your questions. You have all the tools before you to accomplish this.

 

[Metaphor]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

I think that question is not at relevant or well formed. Ask it again and this time don't inject load into your questions. You have all the tools before you to accomplish this.

Either you'll answer it or you won't. If you want to avoid answering it the same way Patooka avoided answering it, I understand.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

I think that question is not at relevant or well formed. Ask it again and this time don't inject load into your questions. You have all the tools before you to accomplish this.

Either you'll answer it or you won't. If you want to avoid answering it the same way Patooka avoided answering it, I understand.

Ok, I'll answer that question when you answer me why you killed Jeffrey Epstein.

I won't personally answer what is really a rhetorical LIE framed as a question.

I do not believe Lia Thomas to be an appropriate competitor except against those who have undergone long term testosterone exposure. I stated that numerous times. This is the full shape of my position, and there are no corners to cut on it nor nuances that serve to be stripped.

 

[Elixir]

Does anyone think being trans should be illegal?
What, if any, rights should a trans person be required to forego? (assuming they shouldn’t be locked up just for being trans.)

Just entertaining Meta’s fixation…

 

[Metaphor]

Does anyone think being trans should be illegal?

What would it mean for it to be illegal to 'be trans'?

What, if any, rights should a trans person be required to forego? (assuming they shouldn’t be locked up just for being trans.)

What rights do trans people have to 'forego' at the moment, or what 'rights' do you think I think they should 'forego'?

Just entertaining Meta’s fixation…

Do you think it is fair for Lia Thomas to compete against women?

 

[Jarhyn]

Does anyone think being trans should be illegal?

What would it mean for it to be illegal to 'be trans'?

You tell us, you're the one who seems to want to pass laws restricting trans behaviors and transitional self-determination

What, if any, rights should a trans person be required to forego? (assuming they shouldn’t be locked up just for being trans.)

What rights do trans people have to 'forego' at the moment, or what 'rights' do you think I think they should 'forego'?

Talk about dodging questions. At least I tell you WHY I don't answer your questions and then flatly state the position that your question intended to mangle.

Here you just answer a question with a question.

What if any behaviors or rights should (in Metaphor's dictatorship) be suppressed of trans people? It's not a hard question.

Just entertaining Meta’s fixation…

Do you think it is fair for Lia Thomas to compete against women?

Why did you murder Epstein in his cell?

Your question references dimensions of irrelevance. There's a no-true-scotsman and a false dichotomy buried in that question making horny fuck-times, with a baby bump of bad faith.

 

[Metaphor]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

I think that question is not at relevant or well formed. Ask it again and this time don't inject load into your questions. You have all the tools before you to accomplish this.

Either you'll answer it or you won't. If you want to avoid answering it the same way Patooka avoided answering it, I understand.

Ok, I'll answer that question when you answer me why you killed Jeffrey Epstein.

I won't personally answer what is really a rhetorical LIE framed as a question.

Oy gevalt. Accusing another poster of lying is against the terms of use.

I do not believe Lia Thomas to be an appropriate competitor except against those who have undergone long term testosterone exposure. I stated that numerous times. This is the full shape of my position, and there are no corners to cut on it nor nuances that serve to be stripped.

Very good. So, we both believe it is not appropriate for Lia Thomas to be competing against the people he's currently competing against. And, I believe, it is your position that it could never be fair for Lia, who went through--by all appearances--a full male puberty, to compete against people who did not do so.

 

[Elixir]

I can’t answer your question Meta, because I don’t know Lia or who they are competing with at what. And I don’t care, which makes me different from you.

You can’t/won’t answer my question because doing so truthfully would expose the stench of the [removed] anti-trans activist who doesn’t even have a remedy in mind, just complaint.

Should being trans be illegal?
What rights should a trans person be required to forego?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, we have an OP who can't understand or even draw out a model of why, how, and what impacts exist that make people different.

It's almost as if Meta does not have a fucking clue.

I'm sure metaphor that with all the vocal opinion na you spew on the topic that you would have a model driving these opinions? So let's have it!

If it's not the testosterone what is it? Midichlorians? marlocks maybe?

Do you think it's fair for Lia Thomas to be competing against women?

I think that question is not at relevant or well formed. Ask it again and this time don't inject load into your questions. You have all the tools before you to accomplish this.

Either you'll answer it or you won't. If you want to avoid answering it the same way Patooka avoided answering it, I understand.

Ok, I'll answer that question when you answer me why you killed Jeffrey Epstein.

I won't personally answer what is really a rhetorical LIE framed as a question.

Oy gevalt. Accusing another poster of lying is against the terms of use.

I do not believe Lia Thomas to be an appropriate competitor except against those who have undergone long term testosterone exposure. I stated that numerous times. This is the full shape of my position, and there are no corners to cut on it nor nuances that serve to be stripped.

Very good. So, we both believe it is not appropriate for Lia Thomas to be competing against the people he's currently competing against. And, I believe, it is your position that it could never be fair for Lia, who went through--by all appearances--a full male puberty, to compete against people who did not do so.

Ah, so you are implying that you are also unable to parse the difference between saying a statement contains a lie, and saying someone is lying. Classic metaphor.

It's a rhetorical lie. If you do not like having the contents of your post discussed with regards to rhetorical effect and spin loading, go pound sand.

I stated my whole position and now you are trying to pull chunks out of it in a vacuum to make an unreasonable statement of a reasonable one by ommitting the reason!

 

[Metaphor]

Does anyone think being trans should be illegal?

What would it mean for it to be illegal to 'be trans'?

You tell us, you're the one who seems to want to pass laws restricting trans behaviors and transitional self-determination

What laws have I proposed that would restrict 'trans behaviours' and 'transitional self-determination'?

What, if any, rights should a trans person be required to forego? (assuming they shouldn’t be locked up just for being trans.)

What rights do trans people have to 'forego' at the moment, or what 'rights' do you think I think they should 'forego'?

Talk about dodging questions. At least I tell you WHY I don't answer your questions and then flatly state the position that your question intended to mangle.

Here you just answer a question with a question.

What if any behaviors or rights should (in Metaphor's dictatorship) be suppressed of trans people? It's not a hard question.

Well, I haven't proposed a dictatorship, and I simply don't know what 'rights' you think I want to suppress. From my perspective, I do not want to 'suppress' any 'rights' of trans people (or any people).

Just entertaining Meta’s fixation…

Do you think it is fair for Lia Thomas to compete against women?

Why did you murder Epstein in his cell?

Your question references dimensions of irrelevance. There's a no-true-scotsman and a false dichotomy buried in that question making horny fuck-times, with a baby bump of bad faith.

You've already answered my question that you don't think it's fair.

I would like to hear Elixir's answer.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, apparently OP does not wish to discuss what the actual dimensions of separation ought be.

There is a certain kind of cowardice in not wanting to actually discuss legal and systemic models by which variance arises with regard to sports, though.

I fully admit that some trans athletes are quite unthrilled about having to compete with people who will get continuing effects from their exposure to testosterone while they do not, and will not for some long period of time. It may even be a big enough blow to their career that they never get back into competition, or that they age out before their testosterone exposure does.

It's a tragedy that I have massive empathy for.

These are sacrifices that actual reasonable people put in their positions: empathy, understanding, acceptance, roads forward so that the younger generations are not so Injured.

I see none of that in the howling over this in the OP. All I see are implications of bad faith by the athlete.

And the fact is, most trans people I bring this to are OK with separating on the dimension of steroidal advantages, even if it means they are excluded on the basis of irrevocable exposure levels.

These problems are wholely the invention of people who have tried nothing and are all out of ideas.

 

[Metaphor]

I can’t answer your question Meta, because I don’t know Lia or who they are competing with at what. And I don’t care, which makes me different from you.

You can’t/won’t answer my question because doing so truthfully would expose the stench of the [removed] anti-trans activist who doesn’t even have a remedy in mind, just complaint.

Should being trans be illegal?
What rights should a trans person be required to forego?

I have answered your question. I don't know what you mean by it being 'illegal' to be trans. I literally cannot conceive what you think it means. So, my answer is 'to the best of my understanding, it is impossible for it to be 'illegal' to be trans, and if it were somehow possible, no, I don't think being trans should be illegal.

The answer to your second question is: trans people qua trans people should not be required to forego any rights they already have.

 

[Metaphor]

Does anyone think being trans should be illegal?

What would it mean for it to be illegal to 'be trans'?

You tell us, you're the one who seems to want to pass laws restricting trans behaviors and transitional self-determination

What laws have I proposed that would restrict 'trans behaviours' and 'transitional self-determination'?

What, if any, rights should a trans person be required to forego? (assuming they shouldn’t be locked up just for being trans.)

What rights do trans people have to 'forego' at the moment, or what 'rights' do you think I think they should 'forego'?

Talk about dodging questions. At least I tell you WHY I don't answer your questions and then flatly state the position that your question intended to mangle.

Here you just answer a question with a question.

What if any behaviors or rights should (in Metaphor's dictatorship) be suppressed of trans people? It's not a hard question.

Well, I haven't proposed a dictatorship, and I simply don't know what 'rights' you think I want to suppress. From my perspective, I do not want to 'suppress' any 'rights' of trans people (or any people).

Just entertaining Meta’s fixation…

Do you think it is fair for Lia Thomas to compete against women?

Why did you murder Epstein in his cell?

Your question references dimensions of irrelevance. There's a no-true-scotsman and a false dichotomy buried in that question making horny fuck-times, with a baby bump of bad faith.

You've already answered my question that you don't think it's fair.

I would like to hear Elixir's answer.

No, I did not. I did not answer anything about "women".

That you think I did is your own failure.

You did answer my question. We disagree on nomenclature.

 

[Elixir]

I would like to hear Elixir's answer.

So what? I’d like to see Metaphor’s answer.

Should being trans be illegal?
What rights should a trans person be required to forego?

You failed to answer twice now. Cat got yer tongue?

I know it must be hard [removed] under pressure to admit to their beliefs, but just pretending “I asked you first!” should keep all but the very sharpest critics from seeing through the guise. So clever!

 

[Metaphor]

I would like to hear Elixir's answer.

So what? I’d like to see Metaphor’s answer.

Should being trans be illegal?
What rights should a trans person be required to forego?

You failed to answer twice now. Cat got yer tongue?

I know it must be hard for [removed] under pressure to admit to their beliefs, but just pretending “I asked you first!” should keep all but the very sharpest critics from seeing through the guise. So clever!

I answered your questions in post 36.

 

[Elixir]

I answered your questions in post 36.

Ah just like a creationist. (Are you a creationist?).
In post 36 you said

”I have answered your question”

It was a false assertion then, and just as false when you said it again above. Just like a creationist.
Try again:

Should being a trans person be illegal?
What rights should they be required to forego?