As I pointed out some time ago, and which you did not address, you are mistaken in claiming that theism, if true, entails a universe. It is logically possible to imagine God exists without a universe at all. Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, he can choose to create a universe, or not to create a universe. If that is not so — if God MUST create as universe — then God is not omnipotent, as in at least this one circumstance his hand would be forced.
Moreover, as I also pointed out, God is supposed to be perfect in every respect. If that is the case, what need has he to create a universe? If God felt the need to create a universe, this suggests that he was not perfect in every respect, because the lack of a universe would indicate that something was missing in God.
I suggest that you do not flatter yourself that you are teaching anyone anything.
If you claimed tree dwelling Elves caused trees to exist and pointed to the trees existing as evidence I would agree the existence of trees makes your claim more probable then if trees didn't exist. This is obvious, plain and as simple as I can make it. […] Since theism is defined as the universe being intentionally created by God the universe is evidence the claim maybe true. Evidence are merely facts that make a proposition more likely.
Let the record show that Drew has just logically proved that the existence of his god is EXACTLY AS LIKELY as the existence of tree elves.
Oh, of course they do. Just remember the purpose of ID is not to scientifically examine the question of the existance of gods, it's to pretend there's actual science to show the universe must be caused.I've seen the "maybe scientists in another dimension" thing among a few creationists now and it boggles my mind. They seem to not give much of a damn what the creator is.
Some people believe that pan-dimensional pixies created the universe with intelligent life in it
This belief would be falsified if a universe with intelligent life in it did not exist
The universe exists, and there is intelligent life in it
Therefore, the existence of the universe with intelligent life in it is evidence for the existence of pan-dimensional pixies
Its a falsification of theism. You think only if humans notice something its true or false?Also, Drew, as I pointed out, even if it were true that the existence of a god entaIled the creation of a universe, the lack of a universe is not, as you claimed, a falsification of god. That is because if there were no universe, there would be no one around to notice that god was falsified.
Obviously the dictionary you quote must be the inspires words of the creator. The dicyionary must be absolutely true.
As I pointed out some time ago, and which you did not address, you are mistaken in claiming that theism, if true, entails a universe. It is logically possible to imagine God exists without a universe at all. Since God is supposed to be omnipotent, he can choose to create a universe, or not to create a universe. If that is not so — if God MUST create as universe — then God is not omnipotent, as in at least this one circumstance his hand would be forced.
noun
noun: theism
belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism).
Did you look up the meaning of theism prior to pointing out my error?
Moreover, as I also pointed out, God is supposed to be perfect in every respect. If that is the case, what need has he to create a universe? If God felt the need to create a universe, this suggests that he was not perfect in every respect, because the lack of a universe would indicate that something was missing in God.
And you're mistaken again. Every single post of mine says this.
I'm a theist. No specific God belief in a Creator.
If the universe was the result of cranky scientists from another dimension that knew how to create a universe theism would correct.
I suggest that you do not flatter yourself that you are teaching anyone anything.
No in this case just pointing out your mistakes.
If we're simulated by aliens then the universe isn't made by gods at all and thus the capital-G God becomes that much less convincing. So this line of ... thinking?... doesn't help theism at all. It does the opposite.Oh, of course they do. Just remember the purpose of ID is not to scientifically examine the question of the existance of gods, it's to pretend there's actual science to show the universe must be caused.
If you're an antitheist dead-set against even the possibility of God, no matter how compelling the evidence (eye-rolling smilie here), maybe you'll be more amenable to a near-sighted creator in a lab coat? Or at least being open to the evidence (eye-roll) on offer?
If we're simulated by aliens then the universe isn't made by gods at all and thus the capital-G God becomes that much less "logically necessary".Oh, of course they do. Just remember the purpose of ID is not to scientifically examine the question of the existance of gods, it's to pretend there's actual science to show the universe must be caused.
If you're an antitheist dead-set against even the possibility of God, no matter how compelling the evidence (eye-rolling smilie here), maybe you'll be more amenable to a near-sighted creator in a lab coat? Or at least being open to the evidence (eye-roll) on offer?
It's not. All those possibilities are just placeholders.The definition of God can't be so vague that just anything that "creates" becomes a god.
At this point your posts have degenerated into an emotional rant against atheists. Many people find it hard to believe that their cherished beliefs might be wrong, and I expect that is what you are experiencing. There is no good reason to believe in gods, no matter what you might have been indoctrinated into believing, and I think you understand that now, even if you are unwilling to acknowledge it publicly.
Some people believe that pan-dimensional pixies created the universe with intelligent life in it
This belief would be falsified if a universe with intelligent life in it did not exist
The universe exists, and there is intelligent life in it
Therefore, the existence of the universe with intelligent life in it is evidence for the existence of pan-dimensional pixies
Some people believe we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't intend their own existence, the existence of the universe or life and least of all intelligent humans. They don't believe it was intentionally caused to exist. Its just like mindless forces to pull a stunt like this some how come into existence and accidentally cause the conditions for theism to be true. No matter how much blathering and posturing is done in the final analysis nothing we observe has to be true for the belief God doesn't exist to be true. There doesn't have to be a universe, galaxies, stars, planets, water, oxygen, carbon, laws of physics, gravity.
I'm not attempting to convince anyone responding to my posts the truth of my belief. Its a belief, an opinion. I'm not stating it's a fact. I don't deny there is evidence which supports a natural view of the world. No one here knows how or why a life permitting universe exists. If we discover how life actually got started and how it could have occurred that would be big fact in favor of naturalism. If it turns out this is in fact one of an infinitude of universes with varying characteristics then time and chance would rule.
I knew I was going to run into a buzz saw because its pratically a hallowed concept of atheism that there is no evidence, no facts, no data, no information no reason in the world anyone should think our existence might have been intentionally caused. We should just accept (evidently on faith) that our existence is the result of chance caused by mindless forces that didn't intend our existence. You don't feel people should be skeptical of your claim.
If you go back and read my argument again, you will find that I DID NOT make the claim the Elves caused trees to exist. You really should make the effort to read and understand what people are saying, instead on simply going with whatever you think they are saying.If you claimed tree dwelling Elves caused trees to exist and pointed to the trees existing as evidence I would agree the existence of trees makes your claim more probable then if trees didn't exist. This is obvious, plain and as simple as I can make it. […] Since theism is defined as the universe being intentionally created by God the universe is evidence the claim maybe true. Evidence are merely facts that make a proposition more likely.
Let the record show that Drew has just logically proved that the existence of his god is EXACTLY AS LIKELY as the existence of tree elves.
No not in the least. The claim Elves caused trees to exist is easily falsified. Unlike the universe we do in fact have a naturalistic explanation for the existence of trees. The basis on which elves exist is false.
At this point your posts have degenerated into an emotional rant against atheists. Many people find it hard to believe that their cherished beliefs might be wrong, and I expect that is what you are experiencing. There is no good reason to believe in gods, no matter what you might have been indoctrinated into believing, and I think you understand that now, even if you are unwilling to acknowledge it publicly.
Some people believe that pan-dimensional pixies created the universe with intelligent life in it
This belief would be falsified if a universe with intelligent life in it did not exist
The universe exists, and there is intelligent life in it
Therefore, the existence of the universe with intelligent life in it is evidence for the existence of pan-dimensional pixies
Some people believe we owe our existence to mindless forces that didn't intend their own existence, the existence of the universe or life and least of all intelligent humans. They don't believe it was intentionally caused to exist. Its just like mindless forces to pull a stunt like this some how come into existence and accidentally cause the conditions for theism to be true. No matter how much blathering and posturing is done in the final analysis nothing we observe has to be true for the belief God doesn't exist to be true. There doesn't have to be a universe, galaxies, stars, planets, water, oxygen, carbon, laws of physics, gravity.
I'm not attempting to convince anyone responding to my posts the truth of my belief. Its a belief, an opinion. I'm not stating it's a fact. I don't deny there is evidence which supports a natural view of the world. No one here knows how or why a life permitting universe exists. If we discover how life actually got started and how it could have occurred that would be big fact in favor of naturalism. If it turns out this is in fact one of an infinitude of universes with varying characteristics then time and chance would rule.
I knew I was going to run into a buzz saw because its pratically a hallowed concept of atheism that there is no evidence, no facts, no data, no information no reason in the world anyone should think our existence might have been intentionally caused. We should just accept (evidently on faith) that our existence is the result of chance caused by mindless forces that didn't intend our existence. You don't feel people should be skeptical of your claim.
You are new here, and I hope you stick around and continue to participate in these discussions. Perhaps you will bring yourself to reflect on these discussions when you have calmed down, and make an effort to understand the perspectives of the people who have tried to engage you.