They/Them She/Her He/Him - as you will

[Emily Lake]

No. I don't know what somebody's gender identity is when I look at them because I don't ask them and I don't care.

Yet you make assumptions about it when you use a pronoun. Fascinating.

No, that's absurd. You don't make an assumption about someone's gender identity. You make an assumption about their sex.

LD, I have to assume that you would refer to me as a woman, and use the pronoun "she" when talking about me, correct? Do you have any insight into my gender identity whatsoever? I submit that you do NOT know a goddamned thing about my gender identity. What you do have information about is my sex. I have never hidden my sex, I have never pretended to be anything other than female. I have talked about my experiences as a female - the experience of having a female body and being treated in the way that my society treats females on the basis of our sexed bodies. You know that I am female.

You know fuck-all about my gender identity.

I know that Laurel Hubbard is a transwoman. I know that Laurel Hubbard is a male person who identifies as, and is more comfortable living as, a woman. Laurel Hubbard also knows this. If I'm ever interacting with Laurel Hubbard in person, I will respect their preference and pretend that I can't tell that they are a male. But everyone knows that Hubbard is male, and I don't think there's any actual harm in referring to Hubbard as "he" in a random internet discussion that he is not part of.

 

[Emily Lake]

if you like, they were 'assigned female at birth'

It's really more a case of "assigned female at conception by the sperm that got there first being one that carried an X gene".

 

[SigmatheZeta]

You said no gay men want to be called straight. Obviously this is wrong because there are plenty of gay men that are not out and want to be thought of as straight.

Noooo.... not exactly. They don't want people to know that they are actually gay. It's not the same as demanding that people who know for a fact that they are gay pretend that they are straight.

If a transman doesn't want people to know that they are actually female, well, that's fine, but it's on them to convincingly pass as male. If a transman has double-D boobs, a tiny waist, broad hips, round eye sockets, s mall hands, and a female gait... their desire for people to not know they are actually female is going to be really hard to pull off. People will look at them and will see a female human being, and will perceive them as a woman regardless of whether they want other people to know that or not.

If a gay man is constantly talking about the great butt sex they've been having with Henry the Bear... it's hardly rational for them to insist that people don't "out" them as gay, and everyone pretend they are straight.

I actually dress in practical attire for my job, plus a little bit of silly costumery not related to my gender. Come to think of it, my place of work is relaxed enough that I wear a pair of dragon wings to work, and reactions are positive. I am really too lighthearted, most of the time, to really be insecure about what people think of me identifying as a woman in spite of appearances. I don't even get mad when people misgender me. I just politely correct them, and if they apologize, I assure them that it's no big deal, except it sounds odd to me.

And one of many ways that my life is kind of cool is that, for now, I can use a urinal. Urinals are actually kind of neat. I'll miss those when I eventually go under the knife.

 

[Emily Lake]

I reject any importance you place on what I judge as an incoherent and facile model of sex.

I will stick with the definition used by biologists, thank you very much. If you wish to proclaim an entire branch of science as incoherent and facile, you're going to have to provide some incredibly convincing arguments to support that assertion.

As soon as you show me a sperg, I shall begin to question the premise of reproductive sex.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am routinely mistaken for female on the phone. Obviously, at least after passing through the frequency filters of the phone people can't tell the gender of my voice. And in hiking in the winter I have often found myself unable to determine someone's gender without seeing their face

And yet, by seeing someone's face, you are usually right... interesting.

Which one is a guy?

All except one.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I reject any importance you place on what I judge as an incoherent and facile model of sex.

I will stick with the definition used by biologists, thank you very much. If you wish to proclaim an entire branch of science as incoherent and facile, you're going to have to provide some incredibly convincing arguments to support that assertion.

As soon as you show me a sperg, I shall begin to question the premise of reproductive sex.

You know the sexual behavior of non-humans can, in some species, be kind of brutal, right? The only thing that really tempers the rape culture, in nature, is that most animals are born with knives on their hands and feet and daggers in their mouths. Therefore, most of them observe at least a semblance of respect because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE CUT OPEN LIKE A FISH. It can still be kind of brutal.

We humans, in most cultures at least, try to live with a higher standard of dignity. The idea of sexual consent is one example. Gender-affirmation is another, even though it is a slightly newer idea.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you propose, just leaving people to suffer knowingly as an entity that is denied something that it is shaped to be reliant on?

I propose the genitals of children are not mutilated. It's really quite easy. What you do is: you refrain from mutilating them.

And when is gender reassignment surgery done on children???

Ludicrous. Puberty is not pumping yourself full of hormones.

Learn some biology!

 

[SigmatheZeta]

If I'm no longer obligated to behave with courtesy toward society just because it's arguably not natural, then I am going to stop wearing clothing altogether, and I might make like Diogenes and start masturbating in public. If only I could fill my belly by rubbing it, too.

 

[Emily Lake]

Yup, although you did have the context that I had been talking about a drag show.

Well... also the fact that all of them have pretty definitively male faces. The Cher impersonator is actually pretty good, but Cher has relatively masculine facial structure to begin with so I took a guess that it was a man. The only one that actually looks female to me would be the blue-haired one, and I *think* that would be a Katy Perry impersonator?

Most of them LOOK male to me.

Also, interestingly, female humans are better at correctly identifying the sex of other adults than males are.

I wonder what might have prompted that particular evolutionary development?

 

[Metaphor]

Puberty is not pumping yourself full of hormone

...



...

So where are the hormones coming from, then, sky faeries?

They are produced in your body.

 

[Emily Lake]

Trans-boys being forced through female puberty tend to have worse issues, to be honest. They can become seriously injured by using inappropriate methods of chest-binding. Their rate of attempted suicide is considerably higher.

The rate of attempted suicide for transgender identified teenage females is approximately the same as for lesbian teenage females... which is also about the same rate as for teenage females that experience anorexia, bulimia, or cutting.

That's higher than the rate for teenage females who do not have mental health disorders... and the rate for females in general is higher than for teenage males of all sorts.

The number of detransitioners are also highly disproportionately female... nearly all those who ultimately understand that they are lesbians, not transmen. And one of the biggest expressed regrets is that they surgically removed healthy breast tissue and took cross-sex hormones that has left them either sterile, or with a dramatically reduced number of viable eggs.

Also worth noting that Sweden's Karolinska Institute - one of the most progressive institutions, and one of the first to strongly champion affirmative-only models of care for gender dysphoric children - has changed their policy during the last year, based on studies done on the outcomes of affirmatively treated children. They no longer recommend puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones, but prefer a "watch and wait" model. This is due to the lack of improvement in mental health conditions paired with the deleterious impacts of both puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones on the long-term health of those individuals.

 

[Jarhyn]

Puberty is not pumping yourself full of hormone

...



...

So where are the hormones coming from, then, sky faeries?

They are produced in your body.

So your body, specifically the gonads part, something which is a part of yourself... Is pumping out hormones... Into yourself...

I do not see how this could be a hard concept for a fifth grader let alone a grown ass man.

 

[Metaphor]

if you like, they were 'assigned female at birth'

It's really more a case of "assigned female at conception by the sperm that got there first being one that carried an X gene".

The trans activists and gender cultists have really had the upper hand with normies for a while now, and it has started with the cultist seizure of the language. Once you are debating on their terms, they've won the battle.

The gender cultists think--and have persuaded normies to gloss over--the idiotic phrase "assigned male at birth" or "assigned female at birth" makes sense. My hat goes off to them, in a kind of supervillain admiration way, for how much work is done with these four words:

• That 'gender', not sex, was the thing 'assigned' at birth
• That it was 'assigned', as if it were arbitrary, as if doctors and nurses picked out folded squares of paper from a tombola drum
• That it was done 'at birth', as if the moment in time had a special meaning, as if your sex is not your sex from before your birth and afterwards for your entire life.

Every time I hear the phrase AFAB or AMAB the first thing I do is say "no, sex is observed and recorded at birth".

 

[Jarhyn]

I reject any importance you place on what I judge as an incoherent and facile model of sex.

I will stick with the definition used by biologists, thank you very much. If you wish to proclaim an entire branch of science as incoherent and facile, you're going to have to provide some incredibly convincing arguments to support that assertion.

As soon as you show me a sperg, I shall begin to question the premise of reproductive sex.

Using definitions of biologists in normal casual speech is not generally recommended.

There are all sorts of elements to our biology that are varied and complicated, the brain part most of all and most importantly of all.

if you like, they were 'assigned female at birth'

It's really more a case of "assigned female at conception by the sperm that got there first being one that carried an X gene".

The trans activists and gender cultists have really had the upper hand with normies for a while now, and it has started with the cultist seizure of the language. Once you are debating on their terms, they've won the battle.

The gender cultists think--and have persuaded normies to gloss over--the idiotic phrase "assigned male at birth" or "assigned female at birth" makes sense. My hat goes off to them, in a kind of supervillain admiration way, for how much work is done with these four words:

• That 'gender', not sex, was the thing 'assigned' at birth
• That it was 'assigned', as if it were arbitrary, as if doctors and nurses picked out folded squares of paper from a tombola drum
• That it was done 'at birth', as if the moment in time had a special meaning, as if your sex is not your sex from before your birth and afterwards for your entire life.

Every time I hear the phrase AFAB or AMAB the first thing I do is say "no, sex is observed and recorded at birth".

No, it's assigned. We've been through this merry-go-round already, @SigmatheZeta has lots of fun research to show that the thing you think makes someone "entirely male" or which your language tries to so name, is "existentially female". Apparently you did not read it or you would not be banging on a PRATT.

 

[Metaphor]

ell... also the fact that all of them have pretty definitively male faces. The Cher impersonator is actually pretty good, but Cher has relatively masculine facial structure to begin with so I took a guess that it was a man. The only one that actually looks female to me would be the blue-haired one, and I *think* that would be a Katy Perry impersonator?

Most of them LOOK male to me.

Also, interestingly, female humans are better at correctly identifying the sex of other adults than males are.

I wonder what might have prompted that particular evolutionary development?

I hate playing these 'spot the male' games with the gender cultists.

Here's the deal: present one of those drag queens naked and see how many people mistake the sex of that person.

And: if, in my day to day interactions, I interact with a male and have no fucking idea he is male, and I call him 'she' and think of him as a woman, congratulations! I won't be any the wiser and that person will have been validated and we can all sing kumbayah!

But no, that isn't what they want us to do. They want us to look at somebody that is obviously male and pretend we don't notice. Jarhyn thinks that noticing an obvious male is special divination magic and it's outing him to process the images sent to your brain. It's unhinged.

 

[Emily Lake]

I actually dress in practical attire for my job, plus a little bit of silly costumery not related to my gender. Come to think of it, my place of work is relaxed enough that I wear a pair of dragon wings to work, and reactions are positive. I am really too lighthearted, most of the time, to really be insecure about what people think of me identifying as a woman in spite of appearances. I don't even get mad when people misgender me. I just politely correct them, and if they apologize, I assure them that it's no big deal, except it sounds odd to me.

And one of many ways that my life is kind of cool is that, for now, I can use a urinal. Urinals are actually kind of neat. I'll miss those when I eventually go under the knife.

That's wonderful, I'm glad you are in a position where you can be lighthearted and fun.

In light of the direction of this discussion... would it be reasonable to assume that neither you nor your co-workers actually believe that you are a for-realsies dragon when you put on pink wings? They understand that it's fund and it's an expression of your personality, but that you're still actually human and that the risk of you breathing fire in the office is non-existent?

I'm also quite curious, if you're willing, to get your take on the distinction between "identifying as a woman" and "being a woman". Do you view them as being perfectly synonymous, or do you think there's a distinction between them?

 

[Metaphor]

No, it's assigned. We've been through this merry-go-round already, @SigmatheZeta has lots of fun research to show that the thing you think makes someone "entirely male" or which your language tries to so name, is "existentially female". Apparently you did not read it or you would not be banging on a PRATT.

No idea what your sentence means but I know it is wrong.

 

[Jarhyn]

No, it's assigned. We've been through this merry-go-round already, @SigmatheZeta has lots of fun research to show that the thing you think makes someone "entirely male" or which your language tries to so name, is "existentially female". Apparently you did not read it or you would not be banging on a PRATT.

No idea what your sentence means but I know it is wrong.

""

 

[Metaphor]

No, it's assigned. We've been through this merry-go-round already, @SigmatheZeta has lots of fun research to show that the thing you think makes someone "entirely male" or which your language tries to so name, is "existentially female". Apparently you did not read it or you would not be banging on a PRATT.

No idea what your sentence means but I know it is wrong.

""

Yes, luv. The man who had me on 'ignore' accuses me of sticking my fingers in my ears.

The absolute cheek.

 

[Emily Lake]

So your body, specifically the gonads part, something which is a part of yourself... Is pumping out hormones... Into yourself...

I do not see how this could be a hard concept for a fifth grader let alone a grown ass man.

Your body also produces insulin. Unless you're already an insulin-dependent diabetic... taking exogenous insulin can kill you quite effectively.

Taking a large volume of hormones that a body is not evolved to produce can have very deleterious effects.