How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Loren Pechtel]

All Russia asked is for Ukraine to be neutral and Russia even paid $250bil for that.
Then West supports fascist revolt and all of a sudden demands Russia to get the fuck off.

Whether you like it or not, but when it comes to foreign relations Russia is orders of magnitude cleaner than the West. And yet you try to paint Russia as the worst of the worst in that regard.

"Neutral" = controlled by a Russian puppet. Ukraine threw out the puppet and Putin got mad.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

 

[barbos]

All Russia asked is for Ukraine to be neutral and Russia even paid $250bil for that.
Then West supports fascist revolt and all of a sudden demands Russia to get the fuck off.

Whether you like it or not, but when it comes to foreign relations Russia is orders of magnitude cleaner than the West. And yet you try to paint Russia as the worst of the worst in that regard.

"Neutral" = controlled by a Russian puppet. Ukraine threw out the puppet and Putin got mad.

Non-neutral=controlled by a bunch a neocons from US.
And you are wrong anyway. For the most of their short history Russia controlled nothing in Ukraine. In fact it never really controlled anybody, not even Yanukovich. let alone other anti-russian cooks.
Otherwise why would they pay $250bil?

 

[Copernicus]

All Russia asked is for Ukraine to be neutral and Russia even paid $250bil for that.
Then West supports fascist revolt and all of a sudden demands Russia to get the fuck off.

Whether you like it or not, but when it comes to foreign relations Russia is orders of magnitude cleaner than the West. And yet you try to paint Russia as the worst of the worst in that regard.

"Neutral" = controlled by a Russian puppet. Ukraine threw out the puppet and Putin got mad.

Non-neutral=controlled by a bunch a neocons from US.
And you are wrong anyway. For the most of their short history Russia controlled nothing in Ukraine. In fact it never really controlled anybody, not even Yanukovich. let alone other anti-russian cooks.
Otherwise why would they pay $250bil?

Again, barbos seems to be totally unaware of the history of his own country, which was just one of the autonomous republics in the Soviet Union. Ukraine was another, as was Belarus, and Crimea. (Stalin downgraded Crimea's status, but that came after WWII.) The reality, of course, is that Russia was the pig that was more equal than the other barnyard animals. (Barbos might not understand the reference, if he were to bother to read my posts again. ) So he feels that Russia, by rights, actually owns the other former autonomous republics in that collapsed union. The reality was that it only existed by threat of force, and, when Gorbachev removed that threat, the union collapsed, taking Russian delusions of ownership with it. So, although Russia did control Ukraine in the past (indeed, had annexed it in the tsarist empire), it has been trying to reestablish that imperial domination ever since Putin came to assume control of the Russian Federation.

 

[barbos]

So, now that Biden allowed minor invasion, Putin must decide on definition of minor.
I think 60K is minor. I mean 60k cyber hackers with kalashnikovs.

 

[TV and credit cards]

It isn't clear where barbos got his ideas about history from, but they are largely skewed by the propaganda that he's been exposed to. Part of the problem is that history books were routinely rewritten during the Soviet period to reflect official doctrine, so a lot of the history of his country is still more accurately depicted in Western sources that preserved the true record.

This is good to keep in mind. I ran into this problem in the Philippines. Because of the education system, you could find yourself in a conversation with someone who knew absolutely nothing of geography or world history. It can be quite an impediment in conversation. I ran into similar problems trying to conduct business with the Amish. One has to be careful about the assumptions they might make in dealing with these folks.

Wondering about a comment I read about the number of Russians living in the Donbas, I ended up reading about “Little Russia”. The suppression of Ukrainian culture and language and the Holodomor. Not to insinuate it is vastly different than the Western version but I wonder how this history is presented in Russian schools.

 

[barbos]

The suppression of Ukrainian culture and language and the Holodomor. Not to insinuate it is vastly different than the Western version but I wonder how this history is presented in Russian schools.

It was not presented at all in school during my time.
Don't know how it is now. But I read periodically about scandals about new history in ukrainian school books. Nazis are actively trying to rewrite history.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I really have no idea who you think the 'average' American is.

'average' American elected Trump. that's all you need to know about average American

Biden lost both popular votes.

??

Zipper and eggnog not good.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Nazis are actively trying to rewrite history.

Seems like a page out of the Russian playbook.

 

[barbos]

Nazis are actively trying to rewrite history.

Seems like a page out of the Russian playbook.

I don't understand what are you talking about. There are no russians according to ukrainian history which is 140 thousands of years (not a typo) old.

 

[barbos]

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ÐÑе дело в ÑакÑаÑ. ÐиевÑÐºÐ¸Ñ Ð¸ÑÑоÑиков, напÑимеÑ, пÑоÑеÑÑоÑа ÐÑеÑÑненко, возмÑÑило, ÑÑо ÑÑо РоÑÑиÑ, напÑимеÑ, оÑновала ÐдеÑÑÑ Ð¸Ð»Ð¸ ХеÑÑон.

www.1tv.ru

Ukrainian historian with a hilarious last name outraged that someone dared to write that Odessa was founded by Russia.

His last name can be translated from to english as "Bullshitter" or "Liar"
You can't make this shit up.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The suppression of Ukrainian culture and language and the Holodomor. Not to insinuate it is vastly different than the Western version but I wonder how this history is presented in Russian schools.

It was not presented at all in school during my time.
Don't know how it is now. But I read periodically about scandals about new history in ukrainian school books. Nazis are actively trying to rewrite history.

Clearly you are taught that the leaders (and even the teachers?!) are Nazis in Ukraine. Are you also taught that the people in Poland, Finland, Latvia and etc are lead by Nazis?

 

[barbos]

Clearly you are taught that the leaders (and even the teachers?!) are Nazis in Ukraine. Are you also taught that the people in Poland, Finland, Latvia and etc are lead by Nazis?

No, I was not taught that. I merely observed the fact, hilarious fact at that.
A country which does not have a separate from Russia history is trying to separate itself from Russia. Imagine writing history of some US state (lets say Indiana) without mentioning United States.

 

[barbos]

(and even the teachers?!) are Nazis in Ukraine

Ha-Ha
Forget teachers. some kids are nazis. There were number of scandals involving brainwashed kids demanding teachers not to speak russian.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Clearly you are taught that the leaders (and even the teachers?!) are Nazis in Ukraine. Are you also taught that the people in Poland, Finland, Latvia and etc are lead by Nazis?

No, I was not taught that. I merely observed the fact, hilarious fact at that.
A country which does not have a separate from Russia history is trying to separate itself from Russia. Imagine writing history of some US state (lets say Indiana) without mentioning United States.

You observed the fact that Nazi's are teaching in Ukranian schools? I'd like to know more about that. And how do you define a "Nazi"?

Also interesting that you consider Ukraine to not have a separate history from Russia. Interesting read for you:

Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Is it your view that Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, and etc. also do not "separate history from Russia"?

 

[barbos]

Is it your view that Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, and etc. also do not "separate history from Russia"?

These definitely have separate history from Russia.
Ukraine does not. Well, except last 7 years and even that is debatable.
It does not prevent new ukrainian historians to claim 300 thousands years old Ukraine. Yep, that's what some of the schoolbooks teach.

Why is Romania on the list? They have never been part of Russia. Same with Poland. some part of Poland and Russia have been occupied by each other but never as a whole.

 

[Toni]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

More helpful if you actually told me what you think is the correct answer. It's been a few decades since I did history.

Edit: I googled it and really, my very brief one sentence recap was correct. Of course US entry into WWI and WWII was much more complicated than than one sentence for each would adequately address.

 

[barbos]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

More helpful if you actually told me what you think is the correct answer. It's been a few decades since I did history.

Short history of last 150 years:
Great Britain colonized/fucked half of the world over the seas
France colonized decent size shitload.
Spain got bigger shitload but lost most of it.
Germany got almost nothing and was not happy about it but kept it to itself.
Russia got exactly zilch and was happy about it. (border acquisitions are not colonies)

Eventually Germany grew up their navy and started to challenge GB status and colonies. WW1 started, Serbian incident was just an excuse, Russia was a side show which ended with revolution and bloodless loss of most Russian more recent acquisitions. Lenin is a fucking hero in Finland because he let them go. He let Baltic States go too but they are not that grateful because Stalin took them back later.

So British French and Germans were senselessly killing each other by all kinds of means until they got tired and Germany was formally declared a loser when US entered a war. Germany was "rewarded" with ridiculous and undeserved reparations. In reality all sides were fucking assholes and fucking losers.
Hence nazis! GB and France created conditions for rise of nazi in Germany and eventually WW2. French and british were pissing and pissing germans off until they voted for Hitler.

Reminds you of anything? I am talking about pissing off part.


In short, future EU countries were fucking assholes. Russia was not really participating much and had to clean up the mess future EU created in WW2.
Now EU is pissing off Russia. What could go wrong here?

 

[Toni]

History mostly bores me. Usually about a bunch of men starting wars with each other.

The history that I was taught was that the US entered WWII after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. The US joined WWI after the Germans kept attacking submarines and was trying to get Mexico to join forces with Germany.

Apparently it bores you too much--you've got it very wrong on WWI.

More helpful if you actually told me what you think is the correct answer. It's been a few decades since I did history.

Short history of last 150 years:
Great Britain colonized/fucked half of the world over the seas
France colonized decent size shitload.
Spain got bigger shitload but lost most of it.
Germany got almost nothing and was not happy about it but kept it to itself.
Russia got exactly zilch and was happy about it. (border acquisitions are not colonies)

Eventually Germany grew up their navy and started to challenge GB status and colonies. WW1 started, Serbian incident was just an excuse, Russia was a side show which ended with revolution and bloodless loss of most Russian more recent acquisitions. Lenin is a fucking hero in Finland because he let them go. He let baltic States go too but they are not that grateful because Stalin took them back later.

So British French and Germans were senselessly killing each other by all kinds of means until they got tired and Germany was formally declared a loser when US entered a war. Germany was "rewarded" with ridiculous and undeserved reparations. In reality all sides were fucking assholes and fucking losers.
Hence nazis! GB and France created conditions for rise of nazi in Germany and eventually WW2. French and british were pissing and pissing germans off until they voted for Hitler.

Reminds you of anything? I am talking about pissing off part.

Sure, some of it is familiar (although from a different perspective). A strong point was made in my high school history class that the overly punitive reparations imposed upon Germany led to WWII. But none of that explains how 'you guys' by which I thought you meant the US since you were responding to Americans started either WW. I suspect we're talking past each other and I apologize for my part in any misunderstanding.

 

[barbos]

I thought you meant the US since you were responding to Americans started either WW.

LOL, you just threw EU and british under the bus

Yes, US did not take part in starting WW1. But you did help with starting WW2.