Covid-19 miscellany

[Loren Pechtel]

They are still abusing their children and killing themselves and making us all foot the bill for it as they do it.

I have said many times society has the right to make decisions for children that it does not have for adults.

I think vegans are slowly killing themselves but I don't tell people what to eat.

The difference here is that dying from cancer because you won't take chemo is not contagious.

And the person who turns down chemo does not tie up the healthcare system denying access for the rest of us.

(And turning down chemo is often a rational choice. It can come down to a tradeoff between quality of life and quantity of life.)

 

[ZiprHead]

And...so what? I am not against herd immunity. I am against the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults, solely for the benefit of others.

Why do you keep repeating this bullshit?

I have explained many times. If unvaccinated people thought getting vaccinated was a net benefit to them, they'd already be vaccinated. Therefore, they value the feeling of not being vaccinated more than the benefits of vaccination. To vaccinate them against their will is to do so solely for the benefit of other people. In fact, it beggars belief that you could be denying this: the benefit to others is the justification people are using to vaccinate people against their will.

So you're defending the irrational.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m sure I’m missing some.

You're missing a new one: Risk to the unborn.

Even mild Covid sometimes causes lethal clots. Turns out it can also cause miscarriage--damaging the placenta, the fetus dies of hypoxia. I suspect there's also a risk of brain damage from lesser levels of damage but I doubt we will be able to determine this.

 

[Metaphor]

And the person who turns down chemo does not tie up the healthcare system denying access for the rest of us.

(And turning down chemo is often a rational choice. It can come down to a tradeoff between quality of life and quantity of life.)

The vast majority of people with Omicron do not appear to even know they have it, let alone need treatment for it.

Turning down a COVID jab is as rational as turning down chemo. It just means you value not getting the treatment more than the perceived reward for getting it.

 

[TomC]

And...so what? I am not against herd immunity. I am against the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults, solely for the benefit of others.

I agree. I don't want the government to force vaccination on anybody.

What I am OK with employers making vaccination a condition of employment. Government buildings making vaccination a requirement for entry. Stores and pubs and venues requiring vaccination for patronage. Insurance companies boosting your rates.*
Staff and management making decisions. Not the government.

Nobody is being forced to do anything. All involved are making their own choices. With no more government involvement than supporting private entity's decisions. Nobody is forced to vaccinate or be prosecuted, they just can't force themselves on others.

Would you be OK with that? If not, why not?
Tom

*You Australians have a different health-care system than we do. Here the insurance companies have huge license to bill people for unhealthy choices, especially when they're as clear as vaccinated/not vaccinated.

 

[Metaphor]

And...so what? I am not against herd immunity. I am against the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults, solely for the benefit of others.

Why do you keep repeating this bullshit?

I have explained many times. If unvaccinated people thought getting vaccinated was a net benefit to them, they'd already be vaccinated. Therefore, they value the feeling of not being vaccinated more than the benefits of vaccination. To vaccinate them against their will is to do so solely for the benefit of other people. In fact, it beggars belief that you could be denying this: the benefit to others is the justification people are using to vaccinate people against their will.

So you're defending the irrational.

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

I think people do irrational things all the time, things I would never choose for myself, but I am not arrogant enough to assume I should force them to do otherwise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In the past when we’ve been faced with serious and highly contagious respiratory illnesses, we have isolated those who were infected—think TB. I was screened every year because a lab in my building sometimes had samples from people infected with TB.

Ugh. I've corrected you on this before, yet you persist with this [removed] analogy. You isolated those who were infected, for the duration of the infection. You didn't put people under permanent house arrest for not having a TB vaccine.

Because the TB threat level is low enough. The Covid threat level is high enough and most spread is asymptomatic (even for those who get seriously ill--the period of maximum infectivity is before symptoms show), nobody knows if they are a threat. Thus we have to consider everyone unvaccinated a threat. The average unvaccinated person is about 15x as dangerous to society as the average drunk driver.

I have never suggested that people who have COVID should not be isolated.

So tell me again about how we are harming the rights of adults. Who are willing to destroy the lives of children for their freedumb.

I've told you a million times and your 'won't somebody think of the children' routine and childish misspellings are not as persuasive as you appear to believe.

"Freedumb" isn't a misspelling, but rather a label for the crowd that is being idiots about freedom.

 

[Metaphor]

I agree. I don't want the government to force vaccination on anybody.

What I am OK with employers making vaccination a condition of employment. Government buildings making vaccination a requirement for entry. Stores and pubs and venues requiring vaccination for patronage. Insurance companies boosting your rates.*
Staff and management making decisions. Not the government.

Nobody is being forced to do anything. All involved are making their own choices. With no more government involvement than supporting private entity's decisions. Nobody is forced to vaccinate or be prosecuted, they just can't force themselves on others.

Would you be OK with that? If not, why not?

I have said, many many times, that I am okay with businesses deciding to exclude the unvaccinated.

I have also pointed out that that is not enough for the vaccine anti-choicers. They would object to a grocery store that said 'unvaccinated only' or even 'unvaccinated welcome'. They want people to be forced by the government to be vaccinated, or confined indefinitely under house arrest.

 

[Metaphor]

Because the TB threat level is low enough. The Covid threat level is high enough and most spread is asymptomatic (even for those who get seriously ill--the period of maximum infectivity is before symptoms show), nobody knows if they are a threat. Thus we have to consider everyone unvaccinated a threat. The average unvaccinated person is about 15x as dangerous to society as the average drunk driver.

You have to consider every vaccinated person a threat too.

 

[Metaphor]

*You Australians have a different health-care system than we do. Here the insurance companies have huge license to bill people for unhealthy choices, especially when they're as clear as vaccinated/not vaccinated.

Australia has single-payer healthcare but with private health insurance options. Private health insurance providers usually ask if you are a smoker, but I don't know if they have differential premiums based on any other lifestyle factor.

 

[TomC]

You have to consider every vaccinated person a threat too.

Therefore continued inconvenience like masking requirements.
Get it?

I personally don't want government mandates. But do you really not see why people who are sick and tired of C19 bullshit just want it over with? The best way to achieve that goal is boosting vaccination levels. I want a free and open society back. It's the plague rats who are preventing that. People are getting frustrated and angry losing interest in poorly informed fee fees.

I totally get that.
Tom

 

[Metaphor]

Therefore continued inconvenience like masking requirements.
Get it?

No?

Loren said every unvaccinated person is a threat. Well, so is every vaccinated person, according to the criteria he says makes someone a threat.

I personally don't want government mandates. But do you really not see why people who are sick and tired of C19 bullshit just want it over with? The best way to achieve that goal is boosting vaccination levels. I want a free and open society back.

Well, you can't have a free society if you force vaccines on people.

 

[ZiprHead]

And...so what? I am not against herd immunity. I am against the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults, solely for the benefit of others.

Why do you keep repeating this bullshit?

I have explained many times. If unvaccinated people thought getting vaccinated was a net benefit to them, they'd already be vaccinated. Therefore, they value the feeling of not being vaccinated more than the benefits of vaccination. To vaccinate them against their will is to do so solely for the benefit of other people. In fact, it beggars belief that you could be denying this: the benefit to others is the justification people are using to vaccinate people against their will.

So you're defending the irrational.

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

I think people do irrational things all the time, things I would never choose for myself, but I am not arrogant enough to assume I should force them to do otherwise.

So we shouldn't force them to stop at stop signs or red lights. Your argument falls apart in the real world.

 

[Patooka]

But do you really not see why people who are sick and tired of C19 bullshit just want it over with?

Which is always the prevailing motive for when legislation get past. People got fed up with too many people crashing through windshields of cars - government puts it foot down. Too many people down a bottle of Jack and wrap themselves around a tree - government puts it foot down. Too many kids drop rocks over a bridge - government puts it foot down.

We are onto to year 3 of this fucking shit. If people exhibited some common sense, washed their hands, wore a mask and kept their distance starting March 2020 and then took the fucking vaccine when it was readily available, this would have been done and dusted. Instead fuckwits wanted to be obstinate and bleat about, "muh freedumbs". Well fuck your freedoms and fuck your rights. Like I said, we are into year 3 of this and you arseholes who didn't want to take the vaccine and don't want to wear a mask are solely responsible for this dragging out. So fuck all the way off.

 

[Metaphor]

And...so what? I am not against herd immunity. I am against the government forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults, solely for the benefit of others.

Why do you keep repeating this bullshit?

I have explained many times. If unvaccinated people thought getting vaccinated was a net benefit to them, they'd already be vaccinated. Therefore, they value the feeling of not being vaccinated more than the benefits of vaccination. To vaccinate them against their will is to do so solely for the benefit of other people. In fact, it beggars belief that you could be denying this: the benefit to others is the justification people are using to vaccinate people against their will.

So you're defending the irrational.

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

I think people do irrational things all the time, things I would never choose for myself, but I am not arrogant enough to assume I should force them to do otherwise.

So we shouldn't force them to stop at stop signs or red lights. Your argument falls apart in the real world.

We shouldn't force medical procedures on them, even if most people think their reasons for refusing are 'irrational'.

 

[Toni]

And the person who turns down chemo does not tie up the healthcare system denying access for the rest of us.

(And turning down chemo is often a rational choice. It can come down to a tradeoff between quality of life and quantity of life.)

The vast majority of people with Omicron do not appear to even know they have it, let alone need treatment for it.

Turning down a COVID jab is as rational as turning down chemo. It just means you value not getting the treatment more than the perceived reward for getting it.

Except that you cannot give cancer to the people standing next to you.

 

[Toni]

Because the TB threat level is low enough. The Covid threat level is high enough and most spread is asymptomatic (even for those who get seriously ill--the period of maximum infectivity is before symptoms show), nobody knows if they are a threat. Thus we have to consider everyone unvaccinated a threat. The average unvaccinated person is about 15x as dangerous to society as the average drunk driver.

You have to consider every vaccinated person a threat too.

Not so much. To the extent that is true at this point is due entirely to those who refuse to be vaccinated.
I am obviously not including those who cannot be vaccinated or those with sufficiently compromised immunity that vaccine may not offer much protection.

 

[Metaphor]

Except that you cannot give cancer to the people standing next to you.

I was explaining to Loren that refusing a COVID jab is as rational as refusing chemo. He thinks one is rational and the other irrational. He is wrong.

 

[Metaphor]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

 

[Jarhyn]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

We so far have as facts: vaccination reduces deaths AND transmissivity.