Covid-19 miscellany

[Toni]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

That's not what data tells us.

 

[Metaphor]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

We so far have as facts: vaccination reduces deaths AND transmissivity.

Gospa moja Jarhyn, [removed insult] you've stopped reading and processing my posts and have gone straight to reflexive [removed second insult].

I have not on this thread, on this board, in real life, in the past or future, in this universe or any universe, claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission or reduce severe illness and death.

 

[Metaphor]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

That's not what data tells us.

The current vaccine reduces the chances of severe illness and death from omicron. Omicron is also asymptomatic in most people (and indeed, may be much, much more widespread than testing indicates). I believe the mechanism that protects people from severe illness and death may also make people who would have had mild symptoms have no symptoms at all (I think this is a fair inference).

People who are asymptomatic have no reason to believe they are infected and therefore have no reason to isolate.

 

[Jarhyn]

I have not on this thread...claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission

vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous

 

[Metaphor]

I have not on this thread...claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission

vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous

I'm done with your fucking idiocy.

Vaccines reduce transmission overall, particularly for earlier variants than omicron. That does not mean that the behaviour of individuals with omicron cannot shape how much they are infecting others, and there are many people with omicron who do not know it. People who know they have COVID are more likely to isolate than people who do not know they have it.

EDIT: And for the people actually reading what I write, I talked specifically about people who had omicron. Of the people who have it, vaccinated people are more likely to be asymptomatic.

 

[Jarhyn]

I talked specifically about...

I have not on this thread...claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission

vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous

You claimed that vaccination didn't reduce transmission risk due to asymptomatic risk taking.

Despite the facts that the risks are lower and Omicron is infective before obvious onset of symptoms anyway.

 

[Metaphor]

I talked specifically about...

I have not on this thread...claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission

vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous

You claimed that vaccination didn't reduce transmission risk due to asymptomatic risk taking.

Despite the facts that the risks are lower and Omicron is infective before obvious onset of symptoms anyway.

Whether the risks are lower for a particular person to pass on omicron depends partly on their behaviour.

Omicron is infective before onset of symptoms but also during symptomatic illness. Omicron does have a lower infection time window than previous strains, however.

And, just as I've said, the argument that 'unvaccinated people pose a risk' is also true of vaccinated people.

 

[Jarhyn]

I talked specifically about...

I have not on this thread...claimed that the COVID vaccine did not reduce transmission

vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous

You claimed that vaccination didn't reduce transmission risk due to asymptomatic risk taking.

Despite the facts that the risks are lower and Omicron is infective before obvious onset of symptoms anyway.

Whether the risks are lower for a particular person to pass on omicron depends partly on their behaviour.

Omicron is infective before onset of symptoms but also during symptomatic illness. Omicron does have a lower infection time window than previous strains, however.

And, just as I've said, the argument that 'unvaccinated people pose a risk' is also true of vaccinated people.

They are not the same quantity of risk.

You posted risk was greater for vaccinated people.

If person A is asymptomatic and trans.issive for a day or three, and person B is asymptomatic and transmissive for three days and then symptomatic and transmissive for another 10 days, then your math is still failing: the "blind carrier" phase is more dangerous for the unvaccinated, and followed by a not-sp-blind carrier phase in which many fucked up people do "no cop no stop".

You argue for not stopping by arguing for not getting a cop of some sort involved.

 

[Metaphor]

They are not the same quantity of risk.

You posted risk was greater for vaccinated people.

I said someone who was asymptomatic would have no reason to isolate, and in that sense pose a greater risk.

If person A is asymptomatic and trans.issive for a day or three, and person B is asymptomatic and transmissive for three days and then symptomatic and transmissive for another 10 days, then your math is still failing: the "blind carrier" phase is more dangerous for the unvaccinated, and followed by a not-sp-blind carrier phase in which many fucked up people do "no cop no stop".

You argue for not stopping by arguing for not getting a cop of some sort involved.

Oy gevalt. I told you, and apparently you do not agree, that societies run on a mix of the honour system and state enforcement. It seems you move in circles where people would do a lot more criminal things were it not for cops. Okay, but your circles are not representative of wider society.

I have said that people who have COVID should isolate until they are no longer infectious. Your fetish for law enforcement is notable but there's no reason to keep bringing it up: Australia has already enforced isolation of people with COVID. You are required to isolate until you return a negative test, and you can be and are fined for disobeying.

 

[repoman]

For this hypothetical imagine it is about some livestock animal not humans.

At what point does giving a vaccine that is a couple generations behind the virus not only not work well at all, but actually in the long run lead to those animals in the livestock business susceptible to nastier viruses and with a blunted immune response to the current viruses?

This is sort of the analog to the livestock industry trying to find ways to neutralize or eliminate anti-nutrients in feed, but for human food it mostly being ignored. Granted, lots of traditional food preparation deals with this. Mass produced food often does not.

I will post this picture again for the third time

 

[Jarhyn]

I said someone who was asymptomatic would have no reason to isolate, and in that sense pose a greater risk

The ONLY time there is any actual "greater risk" is if transmissivity is HIGHER during asymptomatic periods, or asymptomatic periods are longer, and even then only if actual overall transmission is higher from that population.

It is not.

1*1 < x*y where (x>1 && y >1).

You should just stop.

Both start out asymptomatically transmissive, with unvaccinated persons this happens within hours, and one gets worse and one gets better.

And this isn't even getting into the psychology of the fact that people getting vaccines are also again more likely to mask and more likely to be conscientious of their symptoms and actually self-quarantine.

The only time your argument makes sense, so the only way even halfway sensible people would interpret it, is if the OVERALL per-capita transmission risk was higher for vaccinated people to spread it.

It is not.

So you repeating this FALSE and DISHONEST CLAIM should stop.

It won't, but it should.

 

[Jarhyn]

I have said that people who have COVID should isolate until they are no longer infectious.

But they won't. We've already discussed this. If they should, and they won't, this means we need to make them or you are not really saying they should.

There is no "should" here without enforcement. We have depleted the population of "will'.

Your fetish for law enforcement is notable but there's no reason to keep bringing it up: Australia has already enforced isolation of people with COVID.

the ones it can catch, but there's no way to catch those who simply ignore your kind requests, which is the entire remainder of the unvaccinated population at this point.

This REQUIRES either testing or vaccination to be compulsory

You are required to isolate until you return a negative test, and you can be and are fined for disobeying.

But you don't get caught shirking unless you volunteer yourself for a test. Which you can also shirk.

No cop no stop. The fence you erect to protect society against such behavior is a low hedge that anyone can step over, and for which everyone whom we are discussing doesn't give a shit about a low hedge in the first place.

 

[ZiprHead]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

 

[Toni]

Not so much.

Well, yes. In fact, it seems to me that vaccination is more likely to make infected people asymptomatic, and asymptomatic people are surely more dangerous, as they have no reason to suspect they are contagious.

That's not what data tells us.

The current vaccine reduces the chances of severe illness and death from omicron. Omicron is also asymptomatic in most people (and indeed, may be much, much more widespread than testing indicates). I believe the mechanism that protects people from severe illness and death may also make people who would have had mild symptoms have no symptoms at all (I think this is a fair inference).

People who are asymptomatic have no reason to believe they are infected and therefore have no reason to isolate.

Two doses plus booster are effective against omicron.

Do Vaccines, Boosters Work Against the Omicron Variant? Here's What Boston Doctors Say

In the last week, medical experts have learned a lot about the highly contagious omicron COVID-19 variant. As more studies continue to be published, doctors are getting a better understanding of the new strain just as cases are beginning to spread across the U.S. and New England. On Tuesday...

www.nbcboston.com

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

 

[Elixir]

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Oh great. More blessings.

 

[Trausti]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

We let drug users shoot up wherever they want.

 

[Toni]

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Oh great. More blessings.

I'm sure they're here but we still have Delta and previous versions circulating.

 

[Elixir]

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Oh great. More blessings.

I'm sure they're here but we still have Delta and previous versions circulating.

Our cup runneth fucking over.

 

[ZiprHead]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

We let drug users shoot up wherever they want.

Doesn't address my question.

 

[TomC]

No?

OK.
The reason we still have C19 issues is because people, as a whole, did not behave in a sensible way starting back around the beginning of 2020. Worst was the political leadership, that problem started long before 2020. Trump didn't have a top level committee watching and planning for this well known threat. He treated it as a political issue, not a threat to US interests. One he was not prepared or inclined to deal with. Total failure of leadership.

I'm describing this from the perspective of a U.S. citizen. I realize that isn't everyone, but it's all I know enough about to express my VERY strong opinions.

We, as a society, could be well past this stage. Past masking requirements. Past talking about vaccine mandates. Past all this crap, had everyone behaved in a rational fashion. Starting even before C19 had jumped to humans. Much less the insanity afterwards.

You get upset about dehumanization, using the term "plague rat" as freely as I do. How about I refer instead to "plague rattery"? It's the behavior itself that makes me angry. The worst plague rattery is from people who recognize the value of vaccination, often well enough to be vaccinated themselves. But keep spewing antivaxxer bullshit because it gets them money and power, since it's what less informed people want to hear.

Loren said every unvaccinated person is a threat. Well, so is every vaccinated person, according to the criteria he says makes someone a threat.

Yes. Just like every driver on the road is a threat. But the drivers who choose sobriety and vehicle maintenance and defensive driving and such are making choices that hugely reduce the threat. So they get treated differently by society and the government than people who choose differently.

Well, you can't have a free society if you force vaccines on people.

We don't have a free society now. Never did, never will. C19 has reduced everybody's freedom a great deal.
C19 has added another problem with freedom.

It's brought up the distinction between being "free to..." and "free from...". Completely different kinds of freedom. I want to be free from nanny state mandates and also free from plague rattery. But I'm being forced to choose which freedoms I'm more willing to demand because ignorant people refuse to see the reality of this situation.
Tom