Snowflakes in action: the actual reality of "snowflakes" in the world and the consequences

[Angra Mainyu]

Furthermore, if you read my post carefully, you'd see I did not claim that anyone used those movies (or any movie) to teach anything. I made no claim about using any movie to teach history, I provided examples of two very different presentations/view of slavery. So the answer to your question is no.

Your entire response indicates to me that you completely misread my post.

No, you are mistaken. I did not misread. I read and responded correctly, and the part I found unclear, I asked.

So, I do not know what it is you claim will not be taught anymore. But I will still come back in two years if I remember, because other posters have made claims that can be narrowed down more specifically. You seemed to do that before by replying to me in defense of their posts, but it looks now like you're not being precise enough to make a testable prediction.

Now, if you want to make a testable prediction about what will stop being taught, please do so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of COURSE it’s cultural. The economic disparity is a symptom of the persistent stratification of American society that has its roots in slavery. They (Asians and Africans) are nowhere near “on the same footing”.
Most of the Asian people I have known immigrated (or their parents/families did) of their own volition. Their cultural support systems included generations of self support. Even those who arrived broke had a history of supporting themselves working for pay, and had skills to allow that to happen.

Foot, meet bullet.

Now, instead of screaming about racism which you're even admitting isn't the cause, how about focusing on the actual problem?

She knows how to do all kinds of things, from working with her hands to accounting to art and even retail. She could have washed up naked on American soil and done just fine despite speaking only very broken English.

Yup--my wife was in no way disowned but support from back home wasn't possible. She had her knowledge, she had her clothes and little more. She's done a good job of landing on her feet.

I don’t think many Africans have arrived that well equipped to thrive in America. And if they did, their chances of success would be less than that of Asians due to the discrimination against blacks that is their cultural heritage. Blacks are brute force workers, Asians are clever little ones who can’t be trusted. Jews are clever larger ones who can’t be trusted Irish are hotheads, native Americans are drunks.
But blacks are property. Born to property that was born to property. They have never had a chance in American society and not due to any fault of their own.

You're still not showing racism.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, at least we know why you're pointing out that Asians have been included in "All other". It's the "Asians earn more than non-Hispanic whites, therefore the poverty of blacks can't be down to racism" mantra again, right? As I mentioned earlier, it belongs to the same family of arguments as saying "We elected a Kenyan Negro as our nations leader twice, for crying out loud. Therefore no racism." and "I'm no racist. One of my best friends is a Jew."

No, it's because they expose the flaw in your data.

How so? "No racism involved in the lower income of Afro-Americans because the average income of Asian-Americans is higher than that of non-Hispanic Whites." is just an assertion. You need more than a 'because' to make that assertion stick.

The point is one data point in the chart is clearly cultural. Thus the other data points can't distinguish between cultural and racial, quit pretending it's evidence of racial factors.

There is a crucial difference between the Asian-American and Afro-American segments of the US population. 78% of Asian-Americans are foreign born, and they brought money with them. They tend to be former members of the financially better off sector in the countries they came from. Also, better educated and better qualified as well as experienced in the professional class of jobs. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services are very selective about who they let into the country and become citizens.

1) Most immigrants from third world areas bring little with them other than education.

Sheesh. Notwithstanding your anecdote, none of them were brought in as slaves, lived like slaves for a hundred years after the abolition of slavery, were denied the kind of education and job opportunities, which is still a thing on an informal but effective basis. Apart from education they were not encumbered by the ballast of past and present discrimination. That, in a very important way, is something else they brought with them.

Both the blacks and the Asians came here with nothing. While it wasn't official slavery with the Chinese there was little difference. Thus in both cases their children start at zero.

2) Immigration is picky when it comes to work-based visas, but there's no such pickiness for relationship visas. My wife's application listed the schools she had attended, that's it--and there was nothing on the form about the results of that education. Nothing said she left secondary education at 16 because she tested out rather than by dropping out. Her tertiary education only listed the name of her school (and is a pain to verify.) What they were interested in was whether it was a genuine marriage and whether I had the financial means to keep us above 125% of the poverty line.

Nice anecdote.

The point was to address the issue of Immigration supposedly being very picky about who they admit. I was showing what basis they had in making a decision on admitting a certain person.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There are always confounding factors in social analysis. There are in the investigation into the upswing in violence after the George Floyd tragedy. Yet you and Trausti cling to a monocausal theory, and reject any possible confounding factors.

We are pointing to an uptick in murders in cities with large BLM protests. Not in other cities. They already looked for confounding factors, unlike most racism "research" that fails to consider socioeconomic factors even though it's almost always an obvious one that should be considered.

You are mistaken. All this researcher did is find a correlation. Read the linked Vox article.

We have gone over the rest of your hand-waved response many times - it is opinion masquerading as fact. No social science study can ever control for all other likely (or unlikely) influences.

So it only proves something when it's on your side.

 

[Politesse]

Well, at least we know why you're pointing out that Asians have been included in "All other". It's the "Asians earn more than non-Hispanic whites, therefore the poverty of blacks can't be down to racism" mantra again, right? As I mentioned earlier, it belongs to the same family of arguments as saying "We elected a Kenyan Negro as our nations leader twice, for crying out loud. Therefore no racism." and "I'm no racist. One of my best friends is a Jew."

No, it's because they expose the flaw in your data.

How so? "No racism involved in the lower income of Afro-Americans because the average income of Asian-Americans is higher than that of non-Hispanic Whites." is just an assertion. You need more than a 'because' to make that assertion stick.

The point is one data point in the chart is clearly cultural. Thus the other data points can't distinguish between cultural and racial, quit pretending it's evidence of racial factors.

There is a crucial difference between the Asian-American and Afro-American segments of the US population. 78% of Asian-Americans are foreign born, and they brought money with them. They tend to be former members of the financially better off sector in the countries they came from. Also, better educated and better qualified as well as experienced in the professional class of jobs. The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services are very selective about who they let into the country and become citizens.

1) Most immigrants from third world areas bring little with them other than education.

Sheesh. Notwithstanding your anecdote, none of them were brought in as slaves, lived like slaves for a hundred years after the abolition of slavery, were denied the kind of education and job opportunities, which is still a thing on an informal but effective basis. Apart from education they were not encumbered by the ballast of past and present discrimination. That, in a very important way, is something else they brought with them.

Both the blacks and the Asians came here with nothing. While it wasn't official slavery with the Chinese there was little difference. Thus in both cases their children start at zero.

2) Immigration is picky when it comes to work-based visas, but there's no such pickiness for relationship visas. My wife's application listed the schools she had attended, that's it--and there was nothing on the form about the results of that education. Nothing said she left secondary education at 16 because she tested out rather than by dropping out. Her tertiary education only listed the name of her school (and is a pain to verify.) What they were interested in was whether it was a genuine marriage and whether I had the financial means to keep us above 125% of the poverty line.

Nice anecdote.

The point was to address the issue of Immigration supposedly being very picky about who they admit. I was showing what basis they had in making a decision on admitting a certain person.

Both of the populations you're talking about were either forcibly removed or invited to immigrate to the United States very specifically because they had skills and talents that the resident population did not. African peoples were expert tropical farmers, the Chinese were engineers. The very literal (in the first case) and functionally effective (in the second case) slavery they encountered here was an expression of social violence, not the result of anything they had or didn't have before they arrived. White supremacy is a more complicated machine than a simple meritocracy; it required the co-opting of many global cultures and constant, active manipulation of social valuation to maintain a hierarchical distribution of wealth that rewarded the posession of mostly inherited capital over any logical assessment of work value.

 

[laughing dog]

There are always confounding factors in social analysis. There are in the investigation into the upswing in violence after the George Floyd tragedy. Yet you and Trausti cling to a monocausal theory, and reject any possible confounding factors.

We are pointing to an uptick in murders in cities with large BLM protests. Not in other cities. They already looked for confounding factors, unlike most racism "research" that fails to consider socioeconomic factors even though it's almost always an obvious one that should be considered.

You are mistaken. All this researcher did is find a correlation. Read the linked Vox article.

We have gone over the rest of your hand-waved response many times - it is opinion masquerading as fact. No social science study can ever control for all other likely (or unlikely) influences.

So it only proves something when it's on your side.

First, evidence does not prove anything.
Second, you are the one employing the double standard here, not me. You are the one claiming the correlation "proves" the claim, not me while hand-waving away any research that is consistent with or evidence for racism.

 

[Elixir]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

 

[Jarhyn]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

"It's CuLtUrAL!"

In a culture that was attached to a specific set of morphologies, such that when humans see the morphologies, they process the person they see as if they were from the culture, along with stereotypical assumptions of them based on cultural elements.

AKA racism.

 

[Elixir]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

"It's CuLtUrAL!"

In a culture that was attached to a specific set of morphologies, such that when humans see the morphologies, they process the person they see as if they were from the culture, along with stereotypical assumptions of them based on cultural elements.

AKA racism.

Hold on a minute - you didn't give Loren a chance to come up with another word!
I'm sure there must be one because there's no way that the fact that black people are poorer than whites or Asians has to be due to factors that they could control, if only they'd stop whining about being enslaved for twenty generations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

 

[Elixir]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

 

[Jarhyn]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

I think this was probably the hardest part for me when I was coming to terms with it all, that even the victims of racism absorb the racist message and internalize it, at least in many cases

 

[Trausti]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

It would seem that epitome of racism to assume that Black people are incapable of achievement because of events that long preceded their birth. But that's the progressive ideology, I guess.

 

[Trausti]

It's curious that today anyone can say there's White Privilege, or systemic racism favoring White people, when no one wants to be White.

 

[Trausti]

Even in Australia, White ain't right.

Record number of Indigenous doctors graduate from UNSW | Rural Clinical School

rcs.med.unsw.edu.au

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Foot, meet bullet.

…

You're still not showing racism.

Call it something else then.
In my book, when you enslave generations of a population based on their skin color, and turn them out on the street with no education or off-plantation skills, then blame them for not competing economically with educated, skilled Asians, that’s RACISM.
I don’t know what you’d call it, but you seem to have admitted to what I believe most non racist people would call institutional racism. If you have a more accurate name for it, please do offer it up.

PS - my condolences to your foot

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Asians had to deal with racism, a good deal of it. There is no doubt about it.

The same as ex-slave blacks? Is there an Asian Plessy v Ferguson? Was Plessy v Ferguson used against Asians? I actually don't really know. I do know Brown v Board of Education was about black access, not other minorities.

 

[Bomb#20]

Asians had to deal with racism, a good deal of it. There is no doubt about it.

The same as ex-slave blacks? Is there an Asian Plessy v Ferguson?

United States v. Ju Toy

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

You're redefining the word.

Yes, there is a lingering cultural effect. That doesn't make the cultural effect racism and it doesn't make anti-discrimination efforts do anything about it.

 

[Jarhyn]

You're talking about Asians coming here on H1-B visas. I'm talking about the ones brought here for the railroad work etc. They started out the same as the ex-slave blacks.

Yes, precisely the same.
IGNORING 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.
The lingering cultural effect is called racism. Except by snowflakes who would like to avoid confronting any complicity in the plight of oppressed minorities...
Yes, we are ALL complicit, even the victims.

You're redefining the word.

Yes, there is a lingering cultural effect. That doesn't make the cultural effect racism and it doesn't make anti-discrimination efforts do anything about it.

Because the cultural effect resonates with a strongly correlated morphology, it remains racist to starve the culture of the tools it needs to develop into something positive.

Never mind that the people of that culture, regardless of their skin color or heritage, have been failed on account of 400 YEARS OF ENSLAVEMENT BY AND WITHIN THE AMERICAN CULTURE.

 

[Elixir]

You're redefining the word.

Please provide your definition of racism that excludes any of the cultural artifacts of 400 years of slavery.
Seems like you’re trying to weasel out of your previous statements, but if you have a useful and accepted definition as requested, I’ll be happy to use it in order to facilitate communication.
As of this moment I don’t believe such a definition is in common use anywhere.