How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

These people are stupid or what?
Ukrainian ambassador to ...... Serbia said that he expected Serbia condemn Russia for recognizing breakout republics. To which President Aleksandar Vučić replied "Condemn 1999 US/Fermany/France/NATO bombing of Serbia and I will think about it" That idiot ambassador did not see that coming.

 

[zorq]

Cognitive dissonance is all yours. In Putin's view current Ukrainian government does not even represent the will of majority of ukrainian people.

So it makes sense to you for Russians to attack Russians to protect Russians from Russians because the Russians are forcing Russians to abandon their Russian culture and instead adopt Russian culture.

Cool. Enjoy that cognitive dissonance.

 

[barbos]

Cognitive dissonance is all yours. In Putin's view current Ukrainian government does not even represent the will of majority of ukrainian people.

So it makes sense to you for Russians to attack Russians to protect Russians from Russians because the Russians are forcing Russians to abandon their Russian culture and instead adopt Russian culture.

Cool. Enjoy that cognitive dissonance.

Actually, this is what CNN have been struggling with too. All that talk about russian invasion and yet nobody in Ukraine is worried about it. CNN journalists keep being amused by that. So you are not alone in your cognitive dissonance.

Guess what it reminds?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Unless every free nation doesn't immediately send troops to help Ukraine take back the lost territory, (including Crimea) their governments all deserve to be fired and replaced by people who value democratic freedoms. We need to come down as hard on Putin now as we came down on Hitler, back in the day. It'll be less painful in the long run.

My two cents.

Eventually that will happen but not until Putin is dead and his boner is gone.

I think it is incredibly naïve to blame Putin.

The only reason the end of WW2 didn't lead to an immediate return of imperialism is because the conquering allies had created an anti-Nazi narrative about themselves that made them value peace and stability over exercising raw power. This turned out to be an awesome idea because peace and stability is just what makes capitalism work at peak efficiency. Making us all wealthier. Even the losers of WW2.

We need to appreciate the uniqueness of a situation where the world's most powerful nations aren't primarily using that power just to swing their dicks around. There's nothing remotely like the post-war western world.

We need to acknowledge that might makes right and exploitative expansion is the norm for human nations. It's what all the incentives push us toward doing. If we don't defend this world, the world will go back to our brutal past.

Putin isn't the problem. The problem is that there exists a huge and powerful nation that has a culture that encourages his type of behaviour. If we blame the Holocaust on Hitler we are doomed to get an endless parade of Hitler's. Like we are getting an example of now, in Putin.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I was amused by Putin's opinions he gave in his speech yesterday. He insists that Ukraine doesn't have a national identity. He says that Ukraine shouldn't even be a country because it is all Russian already. But in the same speech he insists that he "had no choice" but to recognize the breakaway regions because of the horrible persecution the people there were suffering under. You know, because they speak Russian and not Ukranian and have a Russian culture... Irony.

For the record, I have not listened to it. I heard some hardcore russian patriots describe contents of the speech in one phrase "We've had enough!"

Anyway, you should save your irony for something better.
Russian language war is weird. A lot of these pro-ukrainian language patriots do not actually speak ukrainian very well or at all. Ukrainian Army famously use russian. There was a big scandal at the Olympics when athletes were ordered to use ukrainian (even internally), some publicly refused and said we are using russian and that's the end of it.
The reason for this is simple, most active and insane ukrainian trumpers base of 2014 coup were nazi and ukrainian language for them was single most uniting issue.
The current Government will have another maidan or at least lose elections if they decide to ease up on language. They are stuck with it the same way republican party is stuck with trumpism. In reality russian is widely used, it's just these incidents with these crazy imbeciles which happens from time to time.
The other languages (hungarian, romanian) are in somewhat similar situation. At one point they made a bizarre distinction between EU languages (hungarian, romanian) and the non EU languages (russian), but in practice they ban these too. They are afraid of losing these territories as well, and they are not wrong. Hungary and Romania (I think too) distributes their passports in these places the same way Russia does. Of course CNN does not mention that at all, it goes against official narrative.

Ukraine as a Country reminds me a Cargo Cult.

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate. He oozed hate towards them. If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go? Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers". Trump loves Putin and seems to support the current Russian imperialism.

 

[barbos]

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate

I did not know you spoke/understood russian, good for you.

If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go?

Russia did let them go. On one condition - no NATO and not being asshole to Russia in general.

Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers".

I did not call all ukrainians trumpers, just the ones who participated in the violent insurrection, in other words ukrainian nazi=trumpers.

 

[barbos]

Trump loves Putin and seems to support the current Russian imperialism

I don't care what that piece of shit supports or does not support.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate

I did not know you spoke/understood russian, good for you.

If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go?

Russia did let them go. On one condition - no NATO and not being asshole to Russia in general.

Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers".

I did not call all ukrainians trumpers, just the one who participated in the violent insurection, in other words ukrainian nazi=trumpers.

It is your side that is invading another country. The Ukrainians are simply defending their people. If you're going to stoop to name calling: your side are the Nazis.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate

I did not know you spoke/understood russian, good for you.

If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go?

Russia did let them go. On one condition - no NATO and not being asshole to Russia in general.

Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers".

I did not call all ukrainians trumpers, just the ones who participated in the violent insurrection, in other words ukrainian nazi=trumpers.

There are no Nato troops in Ukraine. There are no Nato troops in Ukraine. There are no Nato troops in Ukraine.

Repeated for emphasis.

 

[barbos]

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate

I did not know you spoke/understood russian, good for you.

If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go?

Russia did let them go. On one condition - no NATO and not being asshole to Russia in general.

Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers".

I did not call all ukrainians trumpers, just the ones who participated in the violent insurrection, in other words ukrainian nazi=trumpers.

There are no Nato troops in Ukraine. There are no Nato troops in Ukraine. There are no Nato troops in Ukraine.

Repeated for emphasis.

Well, no NATO troops right now. But there were plenty before.
And NATO membership is written in Ukrainian Constitution. So.....

 

[barbos]

You should listen to Putin's speech last Saturday. Agree with Zorq, it was very interesting. I was surprised at how much Putin seems to hate the Ukrainians. And I mean hate

I did not know you spoke/understood russian, good for you.

If I were Ukranian, I wouldn't want to be ruled by Putin and the Nazis in Russia. Barbos: if Russians hate Ukraine so much, why not just let them go?

Russia did let them go. On one condition - no NATO and not being asshole to Russia in general.

Secondly, no idea why you called the Ukrainians "trumpers".

I did not call all ukrainians trumpers, just the one who participated in the violent insurection, in other words ukrainian nazi=trumpers.

It is your side that is invading another country. The Ukrainians are simply defending their people. If you're going to stoop to name calling: your side are the Nazis.

USA are 10x more nazi by that metric.

 

[zorq]

I think it is incredibly naïve to blame Putin.

The only reason the end of WW2 didn't lead to an immediate return of imperialism is because the conquering allies had created an anti-Nazi narrative about themselves that made them value peace and stability over exercising raw power. This turned out to be an awesome idea because peace and stability is just what makes capitalism work at peak efficiency. Making us all wealthier. Even the losers of WW2.

We need to appreciate the uniqueness of a situation where the world's most powerful nations aren't primarily using that power just to swing their dicks around. There's nothing remotely like the post-war western world.

We need to acknowledge that might makes right and exploitative expansion is the norm for human nations. It's what all the incentives push us toward doing. If we don't defend this world, the world will go back to our brutal past.

Putin isn't the problem. The problem is that there exists a huge and powerful nation that has a culture that encourages his type of behaviour. If we blame the Holocaust on Hitler we are doomed to get an endless parade of Hitler's. Like we are getting an example of now, in Putin.

You are right. It is not just Putin. Schollars and diplomats have been trying to warn us about this toxic agressive culture in Russia for a long time.

Did you know that back in 1994 Barbos's lauded John Mearsheimer predicted the crisis in Ukraine we are witnessing today? Well before Putin came to power? It is true. He understood Russia well enough to predict that if Ukraine was foolish enough to abandon her nuclear weapons then she would innevitably wind up on the defending side in a war of Russian aggression.

Mearsheimer didn't need to know who Russia's leaders would be because he knew Russian culture. So yes. Putin is only a small part of the problem. Russia herself and her people's toxic culture is the main problem.

 

[SLD]

Well, now we know how Trump would respond: “Wonderful!”

Trump praises Putin's 'genius' as GOP fissures grow on Ukraine crisis

Republican leaders, political candidates and prominent conservatives are all over the place as the Russian leader sends in troops.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[barbos]

finished first 11 minutes of this history lecture. So far better than his usual stuff.
The guy looks genuinely pissed off, I like it. I usually get annoyed by his calm demeanor.

 

[barbos]

I think it is incredibly naïve to blame Putin.

The only reason the end of WW2 didn't lead to an immediate return of imperialism is because the conquering allies had created an anti-Nazi narrative about themselves that made them value peace and stability over exercising raw power. This turned out to be an awesome idea because peace and stability is just what makes capitalism work at peak efficiency. Making us all wealthier. Even the losers of WW2.

We need to appreciate the uniqueness of a situation where the world's most powerful nations aren't primarily using that power just to swing their dicks around. There's nothing remotely like the post-war western world.

We need to acknowledge that might makes right and exploitative expansion is the norm for human nations. It's what all the incentives push us toward doing. If we don't defend this world, the world will go back to our brutal past.

Putin isn't the problem. The problem is that there exists a huge and powerful nation that has a culture that encourages his type of behaviour. If we blame the Holocaust on Hitler we are doomed to get an endless parade of Hitler's. Like we are getting an example of now, in Putin.

You are right. It is not just Putin. Schollars and diplomats have been trying to warn us about this toxic agressive culture in Russia for a long time.

Did you know that back in 1994 Barbos's lauded John Mearsheimer predicted the crisis in Ukraine we are witnessing today? Well before Putin came to power? It is true. He understood Russia well enough to predict that if Ukraine was foolish enough to abandon her nuclear weapons then she would innevitably wind up on the defending side in a war of Russian aggression.

Mearsheimer didn't need to know who Russia's leaders would be because he knew Russian culture. So yes. Putin is only a small part of the problem. Russia herself and her people's toxic culture is the main problem.

Mearsheimer did not predict it in 1994. He predicted it in 2014.
So, try again.

 

[steve_bank]

In the morning news.

An independent pole in Russia says about 50% of Russians support using military force to keep NATO out of Russia, despite Ukraine and NATO saing it will never happen Putin's home propaganda is working.

Russia stockpiled gold and cash sufficient to weather sanctions. Banking restrictions as they are won't have much of an effect. Along with that the main Russian banks are not targeted.

In London it is an open secret that Putin and others have laundered money in real estate and other investments in London. The Russians managing the money in London are known. Yet the Russian money in London is not being sanctioned, possible collusion. Cutting off those funds and assets would directly affect Putin and his inner circle.

The sanctions so far by the USA are weak and will havetle pressure on Putin.

Listening to multiple outlets my impression is so far the response is soft, nothing extreme and crippling as inferred by Biden.

Ukrainians civilians are arming themselves. It appears they will fight. The fundamental problem is Russia's air superiority. We may see a lot of bloody killing by Russia live and in color. From the reporting Ukraine will put up a good fight and it won't be easy for Russia, but in the end they lose.

And of course, Trump has complemented Putin as being smart.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I think it is incredibly naïve to blame Putin.

The only reason the end of WW2 didn't lead to an immediate return of imperialism is because the conquering allies had created an anti-Nazi narrative about themselves that made them value peace and stability over exercising raw power. This turned out to be an awesome idea because peace and stability is just what makes capitalism work at peak efficiency. Making us all wealthier. Even the losers of WW2.

We need to appreciate the uniqueness of a situation where the world's most powerful nations aren't primarily using that power just to swing their dicks around. There's nothing remotely like the post-war western world.

We need to acknowledge that might makes right and exploitative expansion is the norm for human nations. It's what all the incentives push us toward doing. If we don't defend this world, the world will go back to our brutal past.

Putin isn't the problem. The problem is that there exists a huge and powerful nation that has a culture that encourages his type of behaviour. If we blame the Holocaust on Hitler we are doomed to get an endless parade of Hitler's. Like we are getting an example of now, in Putin.

You are right. It is not just Putin. Schollars and diplomats have been trying to warn us about this toxic agressive culture in Russia for a long time.

Did you know that back in 1994 Barbos's lauded John Mearsheimer predicted the crisis in Ukraine we are witnessing today? Well before Putin came to power? It is true. He understood Russia well enough to predict that if Ukraine was foolish enough to abandon her nuclear weapons then she would innevitably wind up on the defending side in a war of Russian aggression.

Mearsheimer didn't need to know who Russia's leaders would be because he knew Russian culture. So yes. Putin is only a small part of the problem. Russia herself and her people's toxic culture is the main problem.

Well, I'd also say that it illustrates what is wrong with dictatorships: that if you control the media, you can dictate what people believe. This is the issue. And it's incredibly dangerous. Barbos and the Russian people actually believe that they are victims. They believe that Nato is actually in Ukraine and is plotting to take over Russia. They actually believe that there are Nazis in Ukraine rounding up the "evil russian speakers".

 

[barbos]

In the morning news.

An independent pole in Russia says about 50% of Russians support using military force to keep NATO out of Russia, despite Ukraine and NATO saing it will never happen Putin's home propaganda is working.

Russia stockpiled gold and cash sufficient to weather sanctions. Banking restrictions as they are won't have much of an effect. Along with that the main Russian banks are not targeted.

In London it is an open secret that Putin and others have laundered money in real estate and other investments in London. The Russians managing the money in London are known. Yet the Russian money in London is not being sanctioned, possible collusion. Cutting off those funds and assets would directly affect Putin and his inner circle.

The sanctions so far by the USA are weak and will havetle pressure on Putin.

Listening to multiple outlets my impression is so far the response is soft, nothing extreme and crippling as inferred by Biden.

Ukrainians civilians are arming themselves. It appears they will fight. The fundamental problem is Russia's air superiority. We may see a lot of bloody killing by Russia live and in color. From the reporting Ukraine will put up a good fight and it won't be easy for Russia, but in the end they lose.

And of course, Trump has complemented Putin as being smart.

So NATO expansion is a response to high-end corruption in Russia?
did I get that right?

 

[barbos]

Well, I'd also say that it illustrates what is wrong with dictatorships: that if you control the media, you can dictate what people believe. This is the issue. And it's incredibly dangerous. Barbos and the Russian people actually believe that they are victims. They believe that Nato is actually in Ukraine and is plotting to take over Russia. They actually believe that there are Nazis in Ukraine rounding up the "evil russian speakers".

You sound as if I Mearsheimer, Cohen and Katrina vanden Heuvel were wrong and you and Fiona Hill were right.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In the morning news.

An independent pole in Russia says about 50% of Russians support using military force to keep NATO out of Russia, despite Ukraine and NATO saing it will never happen Putin's home propaganda is working.

Russia stockpiled gold and cash sufficient to weather sanctions. Banking restrictions as they are won't have much of an effect. Along with that the main Russian banks are not targeted.

In London it is an open secret that Putin and others have laundered money in real estate and other investments in London. The Russians managing the money in London are known. Yet the Russian money in London is not being sanctioned, possible collusion. Cutting off those funds and assets would directly affect Putin and his inner circle.

The sanctions so far by the USA are weak and will havetle pressure on Putin.

Listening to multiple outlets my impression is so far the response is soft, nothing extreme and crippling as inferred by Biden.

Ukrainians civilians are arming themselves. It appears they will fight. The fundamental problem is Russia's air superiority. We may see a lot of bloody killing by Russia live and in color. From the reporting Ukraine will put up a good fight and it won't be easy for Russia, but in the end they lose.

And of course, Trump has complemented Putin as being smart.

So NATO expansion is a response to high-end corruption in Russia?
did I get that right?

NATO expansion is due to the inertia from the Cold War, where USSR had a curtain draped over a bunch of countries and the second those nations could break free from the USSR, they did. Russia and you keep droning on about what belongs to you, but the trouble is, you keep droning on about nations that want to be back with Russia, that actually don't. It is as if former KGB man Putin is still butt hurt over losing the Cold War.