Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

[TomC]

If I were cuffed by a police officer, I would assume that I was arrested. And so would my attorney.

Have you ever been?

I suspect not. Trust me when I say I know the difference. I have been.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

If I were cuffed by a police officer, I would assume that I was arrested. And so would my attorney.

Have you ever been?

I suspect not. Trust me when I say I know the difference. I have been.
Tom

Whether the black kid was detained, arrested, or anything else folks wants to call it & whether a female officer was intimidated by one suspect over the next doesn't explain how both the male and female cop treated the black suspect differently from the "white" one. Unless I'm missing something.

 

[TomC]

If I were cuffed by a police officer, I would assume that I was arrested. And so would my attorney.

Have you ever been?

I suspect not. Trust me when I say I know the difference. I have been.
Tom

Whether the black kid was detained, arrested, or anything else folks wants to call it & whether a female officer was intimidated by one suspect over the next doesn't explain how both the male and female cop treated the black suspect differently from the "white" one. Unless I'm missing something.

Here's what I think you're missing.

What happens in a moment of confusion might be racist, but it might just be confusion. Can't tell, for sure, from a few seconds of blurry video.

However, what happened afterwards is crucial. Were the cops still treating the two boys differently? Maybe so. How differently matters a great deal to judgements concerning racism.

Based on the video, the male cop seriously overreacted to a couple of boys behaving badly. No question. But that's as far as the video goes.

Then the narrative becomes "Husain was arrested and Franco was let go". If true, that would be evidence of racism. But then the narrative changes to "Husain was detained", which is very different from arrested. At least in my experience.

I've been arrested and I've been detained, those are not the same thing. What I'm seeing now is racists changing their story to suit their agenda.

Something bad happened here. I'm just not sure what it was. And I'm sure as hell not trusting modern media to tell me the truth about it.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

If I were cuffed by a police officer, I would assume that I was arrested. And so would my attorney.

Have you ever been?

I suspect not. Trust me when I say I know the difference. I have been.
Tom

Whether the black kid was detained, arrested, or anything else folks wants to call it & whether a female officer was intimidated by one suspect over the next doesn't explain how both the male and female cop treated the black suspect differently from the "white" one. Unless I'm missing something.

Here's what I think you're missing.

What happens in a moment of confusion might be racist, but it might just be confusion. Can't tell, for sure, from a few seconds of blurry video.

However, what happened afterwards is crucial. Were the cops still treating the two boys differently? Maybe so. How differently matters a great deal to judgements concerning racism.

Based on the video, the male cop seriously overreacted to a couple of boys behaving badly. No question. But that's as far as the video goes.

Then the narrative becomes "Husain was arrested and Franco was let go". If true, that would be evidence of racism. But then the narrative changes to "Husain was detained", which is very different from arrested. At least in my experience.

I've been arrested and I've been detained, those are not the same thing. What I'm seeing now is racists changing their story to suit their agenda.

Something bad happened here. I'm just not sure what it was. And I'm sure as hell not trusting modern media to tell me the truth about it.
Tom

What happens after isn't required to see the disparity. You already admit that they didn't get the same treatment you just seem to only care when it's called racism.

 

[TomC]

What happens after isn't required to see the disparity. You already admit that they didn't get the same treatment you just seem to only care when it's called racism.

If the issue isn't racism, maybe @ZiprHead should have phrased the OP title differently.

If it is, then some evidence that racism is the important feature of the event would help. Is the evidence in the video?

Vague claims about what happened afterwards? Vague claims that changed as evidence emerged?

You do understand the difference between between detained and arrested, don't you?
Tom

 

[atrib]

An arrest happens when the police takes someone into custody. In practice, the courts consider an arrest to have happened when the police limit or restrain the free movement of the suspect, either with verbal commands, and/or though the use of physical restraints like handcuffs. Any detention by a police officer where the suspect is not free to leave is technically an arrest, irrespective of whether the suspect is charged with committing crimes resulting from that arrest.

That's vague and pedantic*.

I know the difference between being arrested and being detained. I'm not inclined to explain how I know this, but believe me I do. I've not always been the choir boy I look like on IIDB, the prudish mod.
Tom

There is no formal definition of arrest in the Constitution (i.e. it is commonly used in the same sense as seizure), and courts have often provided differing opinions as to what constitutes an arrest, depending on the specifies of the case before them. The definition I provided is a summary of my understanding of how the matter is typically adjudicated. You can read more in this summary here:

https://digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1322&context=vlr

Quoting from the above source, it appears that both conditions were satisfied during the police encounter with the black kid in question, and the kid was placed under arrest, however temporary that arrest might have been:

 

[ZiprHead]

If the issue isn't racism, maybe @ZiprHead should have phrased the OP title differently.

The OP title came directly from the NBC News report.

 

[atrib]

You do understand the difference between between detained and arrested, don't you?

Perhaps you should read the case law before you repeat this statement one more time.

 

[Gospel]

You do understand the difference between between detained and arrested, don't you?

Yeah, why do you ask?

 

[atrib]

I've been arrested and I've been detained, those are not the same thing. What I'm seeing now is racists changing their story to suit their agenda.

A detention is a form of arrest. It is a form of seizure as addressed in the Fourth Amendment.

 

[Gospel]

I've been arrested and I've been detained, those are not the same thing. What I'm seeing now is racists changing their story to suit their agenda.

A detention is a form of arrest. It is a form of seizure as addressed in the Fourth Amendment.

Pointless, he just sees both getting arrested while one was put in handcuffs because an officer "overreacted".

Edit: God forbid we forget the female officer was just innocently helping her partner put cuffs on a kid that wasn't resisting.

 

[atrib]

I still don't believe that Chauvin killed Floyd, I think fentanyl killed Floyd.

No, I don't make up my mind based on modern media, especially social media. There's too much incentive to lie, especially in that extra useful way, the partial truth. It's just too profitable to lie about hot button issues like this. Clickable makes money, a balanced and researched report doesn't.

From the lefties to the righties, dishonest media sells. We live in a post truth media world, where what matters is how much you can push people's buttons. How accurate and complete you story is remains utterly unimportant.

You have the right to believe whatever nonsense you want to believe. In the matter of Minn. vs. Chauvin, the matter was adjudicated by a jury (not by the "lying" media), based on the testimony of two medical examiners (who both ruled the death a homicide) and the testimony of expert witness (who also testified that the killing was a homicide and described the mechanism by which Floyd was killed). You can choose to believe that the assault on Floyd by MPD wasn't illegal (a felony), and that his death was the result of him taking drugs (even though he was walking around and talking to people without any signs of medical distress just before he was asphyxiated for almost nine minutes). You have a right to your opinion. But when you come online and post your opinions that are contradicted by the facts, people have the right to point out that you are full of shit, and likely acting from a position of bias.

When you claim to "reserve your judgement" until the facts are fully adjudicated, you expose your bias again. The facts in this particular matter are clear to see. And, just like your refusal to believe that Chauvin murdered Floyd, you would likely hold the police in this instance innocent of wrongdoing even if they were tried and found guilty in a court of law in the fullness of time.

 

[Metaphor]

Oh my, he conflated arrest and detention either of which the black kid got and he didn't per his witness statement.

Edit: But you are correct that there aren't any articles or information about who was kept and for how long. It will come out though. If it does come out that the black teen was held and his parents had to pick him up while the "white kid" wasn't held at all and was able to leave it wouldn't make a difference to you. You'll probably say something like "well it was the black kid's age". At least that's what I predict.

I have asked for information that backs up some of the assertions made by people in this thread. I believe some of the assertions have been made because it upholds the 'racist' narrative, but the assertions do not have evidence.

I asked where people got the idea Husain was arrested, and I got attacked for it. (It seems certain now he was not arrested). I asked where it said Husain was detained while Franco wasn't. It seems that assertion can't be backed up either.

 

[Metaphor]

An arrest happens when the police takes someone into custody. In practice, the courts consider an arrest to have happened when the police limit or restrain the free movement of the suspect, either with verbal commands, and/or though the use of physical restraints like handcuffs. Any detention by a police officer where the suspect is not free to leave is technically an arrest, irrespective of whether the suspect is charged with committing crimes resulting from that arrest.

The black kid was arrested the moment he was forced to the ground and restrained with cuffs.

Under that definition, Franco was arrested as well.

 

[Metaphor]

Moreover, whether or not the black child's detention meets the pedant's or the obtuse's view of arrest is not really germane, because the issue is that the one child experienced the "arrest" and the other did not. I suspect you understand that, but for some reason, the alleged ambiguity of what an "arrest" means is a major sticking point for some.

Under atrib's definition, both Franco and Husain were arrested.

 

[atrib]

An arrest happens when the police takes someone into custody. In practice, the courts consider an arrest to have happened when the police limit or restrain the free movement of the suspect, either with verbal commands, and/or though the use of physical restraints like handcuffs. Any detention by a police officer where the suspect is not free to leave is technically an arrest, irrespective of whether the suspect is charged with committing crimes resulting from that arrest.

The black kid was arrested the moment he was forced to the ground and restrained with cuffs.

Under that definition, Franco was arrested as well.

Based on the case law I am familiar with, I doubt a judge would rule that the white kid was actually taken into police custody (arrested). With the black kid it is much more clear cut.

But you are missing the point, likely deliberately. What is clear is that the level of force used to control the two individuals was grossly different. There appears to be no good reason for the police to have characterized the black kid as a significantly greater threat than the white kid. If one existed, the police department would likely have announced the reason following the incident and the national attention it has received. Which would lead most reasonable people to (at least provisionally) conclude that the behavior of the police and the significant disparity in how they chose to handle and restrain the two people involved in the incident was grounded in racial bias.

 

[Metaphor]

Based on the case law I am familiar with, I doubt a judge would rule that the white kid was actually taken into police custody (arrested). While the black kid clearly was placed under arrest.

But you are missing the point, perhaps deliberately.

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm trying to make the understanding of the facts as clear as possible. The only definition of detained/arrested that would include Husain but not Franco is one where you have to have been in cuffs.

What is clear is that the level of force used to control the two people was very different. And there appears to be no good reason for the police to characterize the black kid as a much greater threat than the white kid, other than racial bias.

Husain and Franco received different treatment from each other and that has never been in dispute. Whether there was racial bias and by whom has not been established, except in the minds of those people who pre-emptively excluded every other possibility.

 

[laughing dog]

Based on the case law I am familiar with, I doubt a judge would rule that the white kid was actually taken into police custody (arrested). While the black kid clearly was placed under arrest.

But you are missing the point, perhaps deliberately.

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm trying to make the understanding of the facts as clear as possible. The only definition of detained/arrested that would include Husain but not Franco is one where you have to have been in cuffs.

What is clear is that the level of force used to control the two people was very different. And there appears to be no good reason for the police to characterize the black kid as a much greater threat than the white kid, other than racial bias.

Husain and Franco received different treatment from each other and that has never been in dispute. Whether there was racial bias and by whom has not been established, except in the minds of those people who pre-emptively excluded every other possibility.

Please stop your puerile attempts at mind-reading. You are always wrong and you do not re-evaluate based on feedback.

Not only have you not provided an alternative explanation for the disparate treatment when asked multiple times, you have pointedly refused to on the cowardly grounds that your audience does not have an open mind.

 

[atrib]

Based on the case law I am familiar with, I doubt a judge would rule that the white kid was actually taken into police custody (arrested). While the black kid clearly was placed under arrest.

But you are missing the point, perhaps deliberately.

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm trying to make the understanding of the facts as clear as possible. The only definition of detained/arrested that would include Husain but not Franco is one where you have to have been in cuffs.

Most people here are interested in talking about the vast disparity in how the police interacted with two individuals of different racial backgrounds. Not how the courts define what an arrest is.

What is clear is that the level of force used to control the two people was very different. And there appears to be no good reason for the police to characterize the black kid as a much greater threat than the white kid, other than racial bias.

Husain and Franco received different treatment from each other and that has never been in dispute. Whether there was racial bias and by whom has not been established, except in the minds of those people who pre-emptively excluded every other possibility.

I had edited my post about a minute after it was posted. I went on to explicitly qualify my opinion by stating that it was provisional, and based on a reasonable analysis of the available information.

Which would lead most reasonable people to (at least provisionally) conclude that the behavior of the police and the significant disparity in how they chose to handle and restrain the two people involved in the incident was grounded in racial bias.

 

[Gospel]

No, I'm not missing the point. I'm trying to make the understanding of the facts as clear as possible. The only definition of detained/arrested that would include Husain but not Franco is one where you have to have been in cuffs.

If you were really trying to understand the facts as clear as possible you'd familiarise yourself with US law. I do appreciate you being honest, regrettably, honesty is not a good look for you in this case.