Unbelievers. Are there any moral flaws in Jesus?

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unbelievers. Are there any moral flaws in Jesus?​

Is this a philosophical question or a historical question?

Philosophically, if you imagine a Jesus then you should be able to imagine him any way you wish.

Historically, there is no evidence that Christianity's concept of Jesus is anything other than imaginary. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter? Was Hercules moral? Were ogres immoral?

It is a moral question, that you seem hesitant to address.

Regards
DL

I did answer. You just didn't like the answer. You, however, didn't answer my questions.
. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter?
. Was Hercules moral?
. Were ogres immoral?

Don't we know more about Hercules than we do Jesus? One can argue the morality of fictional characters, but we need some literature first to do so.

We have a more coherent story about Hercules but can the concept of morality apply to a fictional character since they aren't real and so have no control over the story spun about them or things that they didn't actually do or consider doing?

Do you watch movies and just feel nothing because it was fake? If Professional Wrestling teaches us nothing, it is we (well some) can feel empathy and anger over the most fake things in the world.

And again, unlike Jesus, we have stories for Hercules.

 

[skepticalbip]

Unbelievers. Are there any moral flaws in Jesus?​

Is this a philosophical question or a historical question?

Philosophically, if you imagine a Jesus then you should be able to imagine him any way you wish.

Historically, there is no evidence that Christianity's concept of Jesus is anything other than imaginary. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter? Was Hercules moral? Were ogres immoral?

It is a moral question, that you seem hesitant to address.

Regards
DL

I did answer. You just didn't like the answer. You, however, didn't answer my questions.
. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter?
. Was Hercules moral?
. Were ogres immoral?

Don't we know more about Hercules than we do Jesus? One can argue the morality of fictional characters, but we need some literature first to do so.

We have a more coherent story about Hercules but can the concept of morality apply to a fictional character since they aren't real and so have no control over the story spun about them or things that they didn't actually do or consider doing?

Do you watch movies and just feel nothing because it was fake? If Professional Wrestling teaches us nothing, it is we (well some) can feel empathy and anger over the most fake things in the world.

And again, unlike Jesus, we have stories for Hercules.

You are conflating suspension of disbelief and reality. Yes, I can get into a movie or a good novel but enjoying a movie does not mean the actions portrayed in the movie are real. If there is no Vodor the terrible that destroyed the earth then there is no evil immoral Vodor either.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unbelievers. Are there any moral flaws in Jesus?​

Is this a philosophical question or a historical question?

Philosophically, if you imagine a Jesus then you should be able to imagine him any way you wish.

Historically, there is no evidence that Christianity's concept of Jesus is anything other than imaginary. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter? Was Hercules moral? Were ogres immoral?

It is a moral question, that you seem hesitant to address.

Regards
DL

I did answer. You just didn't like the answer. You, however, didn't answer my questions.
. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter?
. Was Hercules moral?
. Were ogres immoral?

Don't we know more about Hercules than we do Jesus? One can argue the morality of fictional characters, but we need some literature first to do so.

We have a more coherent story about Hercules but can the concept of morality apply to a fictional character since they aren't real and so have no control over the story spun about them or things that they didn't actually do or consider doing?

Do you watch movies and just feel nothing because it was fake? If Professional Wrestling teaches us nothing, it is we (well some) can feel empathy and anger over the most fake things in the world.

And again, unlike Jesus, we have stories for Hercules.

You are conflating suspension of disbelief and reality. Yes, I can get into a movie or a good novel but enjoying a movie does not mean the actions portrayed in the movie are real.

They don't have to be real to judge the actions or the reasons behind them. Isn't that why good villains in movies and books are ones that have valid moral points? None of it is real, but we relate to these characters. We feel uncomfortable relating to antagonists when they have valid moral points, uncomfortable when protagonists do the wrong thing. The moral actions are definitely important and we judge these non-existent characters and their non-existent actions.

Jesus... however, has virtually nothing written about him. So it is impossible to remotely feel one way or the other about him, even if he never existed.

 

[skepticalbip]

You are conflating suspension of disbelief and reality. Yes, I can get into a movie or a good novel but enjoying a movie does not mean the actions portrayed in the movie are real.

They don't have to be real to judge the actions or the reasons behind them. Isn't that why good villains in movies and books are ones that have valid moral points? None of it is real, but we relate to these characters. We feel uncomfortable relating to antagonists when they have valid moral points, uncomfortable when protagonists do the wrong thing. The moral actions are definitely important and we judge these non-existent characters and their non-existent actions.

Jesus... however, has virtually nothing written about him. So it is impossible to remotely feel one way or the other about him, even if he never existed.

If there is no Vodor the terrible that destroyed the earth then there is no evil immoral Vodor either.

We can learn about morality from fiction but that doesn't mean the fictional characters are actually, in reality, evil. The OP asked about Jesus assuming he is real.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are conflating suspension of disbelief and reality. Yes, I can get into a movie or a good novel but enjoying a movie does not mean the actions portrayed in the movie are real.

They don't have to be real to judge the actions or the reasons behind them. Isn't that why good villains in movies and books are ones that have valid moral points? None of it is real, but we relate to these characters. We feel uncomfortable relating to antagonists when they have valid moral points, uncomfortable when protagonists do the wrong thing. The moral actions are definitely important and we judge these non-existent characters and their non-existent actions.

Jesus... however, has virtually nothing written about him. So it is impossible to remotely feel one way or the other about him, even if he never existed.

If there is no Vodor the terrible that destroyed the earth then there is no evil immoral Vodor either.

We can learn about morality from fiction but that doesn't mean the fictional characters are actually, in reality, evil. The OP asked about Jesus assuming he is real.

I'm quite certain the OP'er is real.

 

[Jarhyn]

The flaws in Jesus, morally, exist insofar as the author merely didn't write about them if ever such a person walked. There are a lot of mistakes someone has to make to learn the shit he was purported to have learned and understood.

You can calculate ethical responsibility in any given story, and the appropriate response to such. They are calculations on a hypothetical universe rather than a real one, though.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

. Does the concept of morality even apply to an imaginary critter?

The point of all this.

Insert gays and women harmed by homophobic and misogynous religions to this quote. You should get an idea of what you should be doing with the homophobic and misogynous mainstream religions if you live by the golden rule.

Martin Niemöller
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

At the risk of getting into the "historical vs mythical Jesus" argument, we know precious little about the man or his morals.

We've got stories from second or third hand sources (or the one guy who based everything on "visions" that makes up the bulk of the New Testament), but officially there's not a lot to describe the day to day "what sort of person was Jesus...really?" question you seem to be asking.

IF we go by the non-canonical gospels, there's some stories that make him out to be a pretty terrible person in his early life...blinding neighbors, killing children, and then raising them from the dead as if to say "whoops...sorry, my bad."

If you want to get philosophical, and you accept that Jesus took human form, then by default (according to the religion) he was flawed. Human = flawed. If he was without flaws, then he was not human.

Yet again, from an historical perspective we really don't know. There's a gap of about 3 decades (officially) from the manger scene to him showing up as a "prophet" and to say information is scant is an understatement. JC could have spent his teen years and his 20s banging hookers (he did seem to have an attraction to them) and there's no way we could know.

You will know his people by their works and deeds.

They adore a genocidal homophobic and misogynous God and if atheists are so cowed by religions to speak the moral truth, ----------

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You asked if he had any moral flaws, not whether he had moral views. These are two incredibly different things. That you would appear to confuse them is a befuddling.

Thanks for showing the difference.

Oh wait.

Whatever you put maters not to the question.

You are the befuddled one.

Regards
DL

Okay, apparently wasting my time here. Moral flaws would be immoral acts or predispositions. Moral views are theoretical.

Founding Fathers could have moral views regarding government and democracy, but moral flaws in owning slaves. So what are you looking for again? Or are you just wasting people's time.

I mentioned Armageddon.

I could mention Jesus /Yahweh asking us to sin by abdicating our responsibilities for our sins.

The whole scapegoat messiah thinking.

Regards
DL

 

[skepticalbip]

You asked if he had any moral flaws, not whether he had moral views. These are two incredibly different things. That you would appear to confuse them is a befuddling.

Thanks for showing the difference.

Oh wait.

Whatever you put maters not to the question.

You are the befuddled one.

Regards
DL

Okay, apparently wasting my time here. Moral flaws would be immoral acts or predispositions. Moral views are theoretical.

Founding Fathers could have moral views regarding government and democracy, but moral flaws in owning slaves. So what are you looking for again? Or are you just wasting people's time.

I mentioned Armageddon.

I could mention Jesus /Yahweh asking us to sin by abdicating our responsibilities for our sins.

The whole scapegoat messiah thinking.

Regards
DL

So you are not asking about the moral flaws of a real Jesus but about the moral flaws of those who claim to believe he is real and claim to follow him?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

The flaws in Jesus, morally, exist insofar as the author merely didn't write about them if ever such a person walked. There are a lot of mistakes someone has to make to learn the shit he was purported to have learned and understood.

You can calculate ethical responsibility in any given story, and the appropriate response to such. They are calculations on a hypothetical universe rather than a real one, though.

Nice.

What main moral flaws do you see, and do you point those out to believers in less friendly places than here?

On a side track. Am I wrong in seeing a reluctance to judge by those above?

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You asked if he had any moral flaws, not whether he had moral views. These are two incredibly different things. That you would appear to confuse them is a befuddling.

Thanks for showing the difference.

Oh wait.

Whatever you put maters not to the question.

You are the befuddled one.

Regards
DL

Okay, apparently wasting my time here. Moral flaws would be immoral acts or predispositions. Moral views are theoretical.

Founding Fathers could have moral views regarding government and democracy, but moral flaws in owning slaves. So what are you looking for again? Or are you just wasting people's time.

I mentioned Armageddon.

I could mention Jesus /Yahweh asking us to sin by abdicating our responsibilities for our sins.

The whole scapegoat messiah thinking.

Regards
DL

So you are not asking about the moral flaws of a real Jesus but about the moral flaws of those who claim to believe he is real and claim to follow him?

Isn't that the point of moral discussions?

To teach the immoral thinking in Jesus should change the immoral thinking in his followers.

They do the harm. Right?

I went after the cause instead of the personal.

Regards
DL

 

[skepticalbip]

You asked if he had any moral flaws, not whether he had moral views. These are two incredibly different things. That you would appear to confuse them is a befuddling.

Thanks for showing the difference.

Oh wait.

Whatever you put maters not to the question.

You are the befuddled one.

Regards
DL

Okay, apparently wasting my time here. Moral flaws would be immoral acts or predispositions. Moral views are theoretical.

Founding Fathers could have moral views regarding government and democracy, but moral flaws in owning slaves. So what are you looking for again? Or are you just wasting people's time.

I mentioned Armageddon.

I could mention Jesus /Yahweh asking us to sin by abdicating our responsibilities for our sins.

The whole scapegoat messiah thinking.

Regards
DL

So you are not asking about the moral flaws of a real Jesus but about the moral flaws of those who claim to believe he is real and claim to follow him?

Isn't that the point of moral discussions?

To teach the immoral thinking in Jesus should change the immoral thinking in his followers.

They do the harm. Right?

I went after the cause instead of the personal.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

The cause is the people who attribute social positions and attitudes to their created character, not the created character. You should be criticizing the church officials not their logo.

 

[Jarhyn]

The flaws in Jesus, morally, exist insofar as the author merely didn't write about them if ever such a person walked. There are a lot of mistakes someone has to make to learn the shit he was purported to have learned and understood.

You can calculate ethical responsibility in any given story, and the appropriate response to such. They are calculations on a hypothetical universe rather than a real one, though.

Nice.

What main moral flaws do you see, and do you point those out to believers in less friendly places than here?

On a side track. Am I wrong in seeing a reluctance to judge by those above?

Regards
DL

Well, the thing is, we see Jesus after he made his mistakes, for the most part.

We don't see what happened in the wilderness and largely it's an open, gaping metaphor for making those moral flaws.

The only moral flaw that it says he wasn't tempted by specifically was that he rejected the temptation to be king, to have or wield power over others.

We don't see how he was shitty and abusive to his teachers, nor why he had so few friends while growing up.

We don't get to see his fight with his own narcissism.

If he didn't have to learn how to be God of himself and to learn how to see the ethics of the universe as a machine to enable prosperity for everyone consensually within the bounds of such mutualism as any human must, he was never born a man in the first place, just a simulacrum of such, putting on a sick pretend play for the meat puppets.

He would have had to learn these things the hard way to deserve any respect at all: to take all the pain and guilt, and use it to forge a better self, if we are to accept that we are flawed beings ourselves.

These aren't answers that some asshole gets to just flop down into reality and dump without suffering for them, without doing exactly like any of us fucks have to do to learn.

For what it's worth, I do believe, given the evidence of a story that contains answers that were gotten, and how evidence of my own life indicates these answers come after a lifetime of fucking up and striving to be better and to understand what that even means, that Jesus or whoever it was that did the learning behind the story had a lot of these failings.

 

[steve_bank]

Allegedly at the end he sad on the cross 'My god why have you foresaken me'.

The Christian interpretations vary. Perhaps at the end he realized as he neared death his faith was misplaced.

As to flaws, the question does not seem applicable. It more about the lack of a consistent moral theme as depicted in the gospels which we know is not intended to be a journalistic recording. He was a Jew preaching to Jews, do we assume Jesus 'kept kosher'?. As he never renounced Judaism I would say Jesus kept to Jewish traditions. As such he had no need to speak in detail to hi fellow Jews.

To follow Jesus is to be Jewish.
If you follow Paul he did away with Jewish traditions.

I'd say the modern image of Jesus as perfec and flawless is connected to the the porcelain white blonde haired blue eyed version of Jesus.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Thanks all.

Regards
DL

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Matthew 13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

See also Mark 4 and Luke 8.

Luke 14
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

What did you want me to do with your quote, seeing as I do not know why you posted it.

Is there a flaw for Jesus in there?

Regards
DL

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

If Jesus was God as per orthodox Christianity, it seems God would want to save everybody. So using arcane parables to prevent people from being saved makes no sense, does it?

The other quotes I posted are not the ways of a competent savior. Rather they are what we would expect from yet another cult leader.

There are other bad Jesus commands and ideas to think about. Abandon homes, farm, families to lay around waiting for the end of the world that never happened.

The Bad Jesus: The Ethics of New Testament Ethics Paperback – April 9, 2015​

Hector Avalos

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

If Jesus was God as per orthodox Christianity, it seems God would want to save everybody. So using arcane parables to prevent people from being saved makes no sense, does it?

The other quotes I posted are not the ways of a competent savior. Rather they are what we would expect from yet another cult leader.

There are other bad Jesus commands and ideas to think about. Abandon homes, farm, families to lay around waiting for the end of the world that never happened.

The Bad Jesus: The Ethics of New Testament Ethics Paperback – April 9, 2015​

Hector Avalos

I agree that much of what comes out of Jesus' mouth are poorly thought out and not understood as presented.

The hate those quotes speak to is intended to refer to an expression of ideas that are to be hated and not our real parents.

Let's not teach the religious how to read their books though. Let the evil die gracefully.

Regards
DL