US, Cuba seek to normalize relations

[untermensche]

Ever wonder how a country as poor as Cuba can manage to put together a health care system that produces better results than our much more expensive health care system?

They pay doctors shit and they trade doctors for oil in Venezuela.

The real success Cuba had was their ability to train doctors.

It is true that once trained they had skills they could trade for better money in the US.

 

[untermensche]

Third, "the right thing to do" is US Cuba's nearly unprecedented difficulties to demand substantive human rights and economic changes in Cuba in return for "normalization" - Obama, as usual, being a indifferent negotiator gave much for little in return.

The US is invading people and droning people and torturing people and killing unarmed people in the streets.

But it is Cuba that has a problem with human rights.

 

[ksen]

All right! Wicked cheap labor only 90 miles from Florida!

 

[dismal]

All right! Wicked cheap labor only 90 miles from Florida!

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Plus those cigars for Wall Street fat cats aren't going to roll themselves.

 

[funinspace]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7f7f...p-source-cuba-releases-us-prisoner-alan-gross

The United States and Cuba will start talks on normalizing full diplomatic relations, marking the most significant shift in U.S. policy toward the communist island in decades, American officials said Wednesday. The announcement comes amid a series of new confidence-building measures between the longtime foes, including the release of American Alan Gross and the freeing of three Cubans jailed in the U.S.

President Barack Obama was to announce the policy changes from the White House at noon Wednesday.

Long overdue.

oh yeah . . . OBAMA!!!

Yep...about 2 decades overdue. But for internal US politics this farce would have ended years ago.

 

[SimpleDon]

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/7f7f...p-source-cuba-releases-us-prisoner-alan-gross

The United States and Cuba will start talks on normalizing full diplomatic relations, marking the most significant shift in U.S. policy toward the communist island in decades, American officials said Wednesday. The announcement comes amid a series of new confidence-building measures between the longtime foes, including the release of American Alan Gross and the freeing of three Cubans jailed in the U.S.

President Barack Obama was to announce the policy changes from the White House at noon Wednesday.

Long overdue.

oh yeah . . . OBAMA!!!

Yes, long overdue. I worked in Cuba in the late 1970's. We built a cement plant near Matanzas east of Havana. Wonderful country, wonderful people.

 

[RavenSky]

I am most interested to see what happens to the "wet foot, dry foot" policy, and suspect the possibility of that going away is the biggest issue people like Marco Rubio have with the shift in policy.

 

[SimpleDon]

Finally, over two decades since international communism collapsed in upon itself, we've decided to stop fighting an impoverished island nation that hasn't posed a serious threat to our national security since back when MTV still played music videos.

Actually this is one of those rare occasions that I was inclined to support Obama's change in policy, that is until he and his policy supporters (right and left) started emoting their laundry list of reasons to support a non-reformist communist regime. On the left we have the tear gushing and burbbling about how much this will free the Cuban people from the cruelty of the American embargo, and on the right we have to suffer the Pavlovian salvia dripping profit enthusiasms of Chamber capitalists waxing on about the huge amount of money their Miami members will make in this "huge" new market.

There probably is a reason to support the normalization of relations with Cuba, but its difficult to find it in the bogus economic and sentimental propaganda.

First, about this "market". Cuba is a nothing sized economy that is meaningless to US economic growth. Even Ecuador has a larger GDP than Cuba. For decades they already had access to import/export in the world markets and have obtained heavily subsidized energy from the Soviet Union then Venezuela. Ending of a US embargo (in and of itself) will not enrich other than a handful of Castro cronies, Communist party bribe takers, and perhaps a few US tampon exporters and US travel agents. Without substantial Cuban economic reform (which has yet to be promised or delivered) this is much ado about an economic nothing.

Second, normalization won't change anything other than providing a prop for the Castro dictatorships. Obama's whining about it being "the right thing to do" and (another supporter's) worrisome emotive pain about about how the prior policy "isolated the US, not Cuba" are little more than intellectually (and morally) empty platitudes.

Third, "the right thing to do" is to use Cuba's nearly unprecedented difficulties to demand substantive human rights and economic changes in Cuba in return for "normalization" - Obama, as usual, being a indifferent negotiator gave much for little in return. Not surprised.

In other words, who SHOULD REALLY care about normalization?

Yes, you have to start somewhere.

The embargo really accomplished nothing. The Cubans trade with nearly every other country in the world but the US. My company did a lot of business in Cuba, all from Germany. Lifting the embarago won't have much impact on trade. But it will increase tourism.

The Cubans have to reform their economy. It is a hard thing for them to do. Like most people they fear change, the driving force of conservatives everywhere.

Communism accomplished much in Cuba,. They improved education and health care by providing both to people who had little or none of either before. They made some small steps toward industrialization where before they relied on imports.

But they can't help but to look to China to see the benefits of reforming their economy.

I share your concern about Obama's negotiating skills. But in this case I don't think that the terms of the deal don't really matter. There is little for us to gain from any agreement no matter how well it is negotiated. And unless the mandarins of the Republican party can prevent it the rabid right will go to war over anything that Obama does now. Short of he resigning and pleading guilty of all of the impeachable crimes that they believe that he has committed, of course.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I am a little sad to hear this. Cuba was a great place to go on vacation and avoid Americans. I think I will go one more time before the Americans come and ruin the place.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Does that mean the Cubans will finally extradite Assata Shakur?

More on that:
http://thegrio.com/2014/12/18/assata-shakur-us-cuba/

 

[untermensche]

All right! Wicked cheap labor only 90 miles from Florida!

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Plus those cigars for Wall Street fat cats aren't going to roll themselves.

It is socialism because the guy you always believe told you it was.

Socialism is not dictatorship.

That is capitalism.

 

[Derec]

Does that mean the Cubans will finally extradite Assata Shakur?

More on that:
http://thegrio.com/2014/12/18/assata-shakur-us-cuba/

Sick cop killer apologetics. But hardly surprising given the source (Grio) and the author (David A. Love), who also claims that cop-killer and extremist Mumia Abu Jamal is "innocent".

This is a better article on the possible extradition. Not holding my breath though, as I doubt neither Obama nor either current AG or AG designate will make her a priority.

 

[fromderinside]

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Plus those cigars for Wall Street fat cats aren't going to roll themselves.

It is socialism because the guy you always believe told you it was.

Socialism is not dictatorship.

That is capitalism.

Francis here.

Its actually capitalistically exploited people who also have massive socialism. Not nearly enough socialism to make up the difference with what we get here in our shining democracy on the hill. Enough socialism to provide examples where we suffer by comparison.

Bless you my children.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

More on that:
http://thegrio.com/2014/12/18/assata-shakur-us-cuba/

Sick cop killer apologetics. But hardly surprising given the source (Grio) and the author (David A. Love), who also claims that cop-killer and extremist Mumia Abu Jamal is "innocent".

This is a better article on the possible extradition. Not holding my breath though, as I doubt neither Obama nor either current AG or AG designate will make her a priority.

Continue an embargo across an entire nation over a couple killers?

 

[dismal]

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Plus those cigars for Wall Street fat cats aren't going to roll themselves.

It is socialism because the guy you always believe told you it was.

Socialism is not dictatorship.

That is capitalism.

So these Cuban workers getting paid $15 per month are being exploited?

 

[ksen]

All right! Wicked cheap labor only 90 miles from Florida!

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Find me a definition that says socialism is about the powerful exploiting the weak then I'll agree with you. Otherwise the $15/month wage is another example of the powerful exploiting the weak and not socialism.

Plus those cigars for Wall Street fat cats aren't going to roll themselves.

Well, that part's true.

 

[Derec]

Continue an embargo across an entire nation over a couple killers?

Luckily Abu Jamal never escaped to Cuba, so it's one killer I was talking about.
And no, but there is no reason not to vigorously pursue her extradition as part of negotiations with Cuba. How much can a cop killer be worth to Cubans anyway, even if she was part of a left-wing wannabe-revolutionist (but really just criminal) organizations?

 

[Derec]

Otherwise the $15/month wage is another example of the powerful exploiting the weak and not socialism.

No true socialist puts sugar on his porridge. Although, to be fair, that has mostly to do with there being a sugar shortage.

 

[dismal]

$15 per month may seem like it's a cheap and exploitive wage but it's not because socialism!

Find me a definition that says socialism is about the powerful exploiting the weak then I'll agree with you. Otherwise the $15/month wage is another example of the powerful exploiting the weak and not socialism.

What's your definition of socialism?

 

[ksen]

Find me a definition that says socialism is about the powerful exploiting the weak then I'll agree with you. Otherwise the $15/month wage is another example of the powerful exploiting the weak and not socialism.

What's your definition of socialism?

What's yours? You're the one that brought it up so I'm assuming you had something in mind when you posted it.