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Is the Bible a magic book?

steve_bank said:
southernhybrid said:
steve_bank said:
So Learner, all that is implied as evil in the bible mist be punished? Thickness certainty must be stoned to death.

The problem for us non religious is that Christians for 2000 years punished what they consider evil in god's name and the bible.

When a Christian says god says something is evil or bad it usually means 'I don't like it and I am using god for emphasis'.

To Evangelicals atheists are doing evil by being atheist.
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No. They don't think we're evil because we're atheists. They just think their god is going to send us to hell to be tortured for all eternity because we're atheists. However, we're not that special. God is going to punish the Muslims, the Baha'is, the Buddhists, the Hindus, the Mormons, the JWs, and all the other religious or non religious who don't believe exactly what they do. "For the wages of sin is death.....but the gift of god is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"......Get it. Believe like we do or you're screwed. ( Did I remember that correctly? I had to memorize it during my childhood ). Hell will be more diverse and interesting or as Mark Twain put it, "Heaven for the climate...Hell for the company." 😇

"Judge not, that ye, that ye be not judged." God should listen to his own words. Or... When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a WOman, I put away childish things. :cheer:Like for example.....religion, especially evangelical religion. :devilish:
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I disagree strongly. You can hear it in Evangelical TV and radio. I'd heard it on FOX news. They causally say secular instead of atheist. Secular science is out to destroy religion.

When I was in assisted living two preachers came in for meetings in the community room. When on the floor you cod hear loud angry hate speech directed at atheists.

Atheists are a convenient perennial foil for Christians.
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Sure, but I was raised in a strict evangelical home, and I know that it's not just atheists who they condemn. I was told to "witness" to my little Catholic friends to help keep them from hell. Evangelicals believe anyone who believes in a different version of Christianity will still go to hell. Have you never heard of Charismatic Catholics or for that matter Charismatic Jews? They are the ones who convert to evangelical Christianity, so they will be saved from hell. I had two patients who were Charismatic Jews. They wore the Jewish Star of David along with crosses around their necks.

We are just an easier target, because the word atheist is so scary to some people, but they still "witness" to us, thinking that somehow, we will suddenly see the error of our ways and beg forgiveness from Jesus, so we will have eternal life. I know because it's happened to me once last year. If I were a Muslim or Jewish, the same woman would have likely told me she was worried about me in the afterlife. I told her that a good god wouldn't care what I believed. If there was a god, who felt it necessary to judge me, she would judge me on my character, not on my beliefs.

But, what you're talking about is political. I'm talking about what these people actually believe.
 
I just thought of another very sad example of what evangelicals believe. My mother became friends with a lovely neighbor about her age, after my father died. The neighbor was a Catholic as a large percentage of the population in New Jersey has been for as long as I remember. My mom and her friend walked together and sometimes even went to local events together. Her friend meant a lot to my mom

Anyway, I was visiting NJ, the week that the neighbor died and one of my mother's evangelical friends, who I've never liked came over the house. She said to my mother, "Did you talk to her about the Lord, Marie". I wanted to scream at her friend, but I controlled myself. I wanted to ask why if she believed that the only way to heaven was to convert and become "saved", she would ask my mother such a question. The woman was already dead, so why would she ask my mother, who was already grieving the loss of her friend, if she had tried to save her from hell, prior to her death! Daisy knew I was an atheist, but we tried to avoid religious topics when I was around her and my mother, as not to upset my mother.

My mother eventually stopped believing that people like me were going to hell, but sometimes when she was around people like Daisy, I think she was uncertain, because she did try once to bring me back to the crazy religion of my childhood. I laughed and told her she needed to believe more like I did and less like what her church told her to believe.

To this day, I have never understood how my late mother was sucked up into a cult like religion during her late 20s, when she was so thoughtful when it came to other things, like politics and women's rights. I guess it gave her some type of emotional satisfaction. I'm just glad that she and I remained close friends, despite her knowing I'm an atheist.
 
steve_bank said:
So Learner, all that is implied as evil in the bible mist be punished? Thickness certainty must be stoned to death.
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Christians are often said they don't know their own bible, but as you read through the eyes of the atheists perspective - you unfortunately overlooked the verses that emphasises God forgives. I would say thickness could be forgiveable.
steve_bank said:
The problem for us non religious is that Christians for 2000 years punished what they consider evil in god's name and the bible.
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People do all sorts of things in God's name. Would Jesus call those who do the opposite to what he demands, his followers?

Matt:7:21-23
Many will say to Me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?” And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.”

steve_bank said:
When a Christian says god says something is evil or bad it usually means 'I don't like it and I am using god for emphasis'.
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If that's the case with what some individuals do, then let's hope they 'change their ways' before they fall into the 'practice of lawlessness' category described in the above verse.
steve_bank said:
To Evangelicals atheists are doing evil by being atheist.
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Again as the above verses illustrates. Christians or Evangelicals will be judged by the intentions in their hearts etc..
 
I don't see much about forgiveness in the bible as a whole.

To me it is clear the Christian theology developed from multiple cultural sources unrelated to any Jewish tradition originating with an itinerant Jewish rabbi.

The OT is about retribution and the wrath of god. Destroyed life in flood not just humans because he was not happy with humans. Yahweh was not a god of love, as is said of the New Age form of Jesus.

You did not directly answer my question Learned, should anything explicitly or interpreted as evil be attacked in the name of god and Jesus?

Take a look at the words of The Battle Hymn Of The Republic. The Crusades. The anti Jewish Christianity form the start,' Jews killed Jesus'.

Christians have an issue with behavior and declares they oppose it because that is what god wants. Abortino is a good example. All life is sacred. Nothing relating to that in bible. I believe ancient Hebrews allowed abortion at least to a certain point.

The usual Christian hypocrysy here in the USA. They dig their heals in on abortion claiming it is murder, yet they also oppose universal health care that would ensure medical care for kids. Sane with education and nutrition.


There is no morality in te bible. The OT is about a groud orinating with a wndering nomads and ther tribal customs.

As I like to say, Buddhism predates Christanty by about 350 years, and reprents a cosistent morality. No ambiguiues. Norms and bhavior clearly defined.

Ypu shoul read the Dali Lmas's books and listen to his vodeo talks if want to hear a morality.
 
I was talking to an Evangelical I knew about Obama. To him Obama was literally the anti Christs.

He said it was not biblcaly given to Christians to 'take him out', and that gave me pause.
 
steve_bank said:
I was talking to an Evangelical I knew about Obama. To him Obama was literally the anti Christs.

He said it was not biblcaly given to Christians to 'take him out', and that gave me pause.
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So then why did god give them guns?
 
steve_bank said:
I don't see much about forgiveness in the bible as a whole.
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I know...

. ..you seem to be focused only in the other parts of the greater 'whole'.

steve_bank said:
To me it is clear the Christian theology developed from multiple cultural sources unrelated to any Jewish tradition originating with an itinerant Jewish rabbi.
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Jewish tradition? Which Jewish group do you refer tradition to? There was more than one!

The Sadducees had different traditions to Pharisee's, who were different to the Zealots who were different to the Essenes and so on.

Christianity was started by Jews that followed Jesus, who was a Jew himself. Why were they also not a Jewish sect?

The once often used atheist line of argument is redundant now.

steve_bank said:
The OT is about retribution and the wrath of god. Destroyed life in flood not just humans because he was not happy with humans. Yahweh was not a god of love, as is said of the New Age form of Jesus.
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.
Strangely - the "new age" Jesus, as you put it, doesn't seem to be condemning or rebuking the Old Testament anywhere. Instead we have Jesus vouching for God and the OT, which should indicate theres some error in your analysis.

steve_bank said:
You did not directly answer my question Learned, should anything explicitly or interpreted as evil be attacked in the name of god and Jesus?
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To clarify: Do you mean attacking without reason? Who's attacking first? Perhaps the scenario...when war was waged against the Israelites, the actions to attack 'back' was a reason.

(I'll post the other half later)
 
Lion IRC said:
the love of money - the root of all evil
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The love of money isn't the root of all evil. A lot of things can create evil. At a high level there could be bad intent and/or good intent involved.

For example, a person can commit evil from unintended consequences of their actions. Or from ignorance but not realize how dumb it is. To give three concrete examples:
1. a person may think that allowing their child not to take blood in a hospital when needed is moral, but then their child dies;
2. a person might severely physically abuse their child as a punishment because the bible said so and they think it will lead to their child having better morals, but they're wrong--it's evil;
3. a person might condemn a gay person to death because that's what the bible says to do and so they think it is good, but they end up allowing the government to apply the death penalty to someone for being gay.

Now for some examples of bad intent that might create evil actions:
a. jealousy -- a person might decide to murder his brother because he is jealous
b. hatred -- a people may run around slaughtering the first-born sons of their enemy and claim a god told them to do it just because they are angry at what the enemy did to them in this endless cycle of an eye for an eye.
c. lust -- a husband might be so lustful he forces himself upon his wife and a lot of religious people might say she has to give in to his desires. Fortunately, society is changing on this one.
d. intolerance -- a person might decide to destroy a couple of cities (including cats, babies, and cute puppies!!) because he doesn't like the lifestyles some of the adults are living
 
Yes, some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
Some use "a root" instead of "the root".
You could also argue that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Now for some examples of bad intent that might create evil actions:
a. jealousy -- a person might decide to murder his brother because he is jealous
b. hatred -- a people may run around slaughtering the first-born sons of their enemy and claim a god told them to do it just because they are angry at what the enemy did to them in this endless cycle of an eye for an eye.
c. lust -- a husband might be so lustful he forces himself upon his wife and a lot of religious people might say she has to give in to his desires. Fortunately, society is changing on this one.
d. intolerance -- a person might decide to destroy a couple of cities (including cats, babies, and cute puppies!!) because he doesn't like the lifestyles some of the adults are living
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e. religiosity - the belief that one is acting in accord with the will of a tri-omni superbeing is among the most dangerous things that are commonly found in human societies. Folk who believe such absurdities are easily led to dehumanize those outside their belief circles, to commit atrocities those people and to think of themselves as more deserving than others.
Lion IRC said:
Yes, some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
Some use "a root" instead of "the root".
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Thanks for the deconstruction, but most of us, I am sure, are well aware of the meaning of the old saw "money is the root of all evil".

Lion IRC said:
You could also argue that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug'
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Yes, taking examples like Joel Osteen, it can lead to peddling hyper-religiosity, which is a million times worse.
 
Elixir said:
religiosity - the belief that one is acting in accord with the will of a tri-omni superbeing is among the most dangerous things that are commonly found in human societies...
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If the nett religious impulse and its outcomes (fruits) are overwhelmingly altruistic, rather than harmful, then it is one of the most beneficial things in human society.

The mere belief that one is "acting in accord with the will" of God isn't inherently dangerous.
 
Lion IRC said:
Yes, some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
Some use "a root" instead of "the root".
You could also argue that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.
Click to expand...

You COULD try to Christian apologist argue that, but it'd get you laughed out of an argument. The mythical characters like Adam, Eve, and children didn't have money. Yet allegedly committed evil. That is like children with no access to money still doing bad things. So, it's completely ridiculous to claim the love of money leads to all evil.

Not to mention the bulleted items were mostly Islamo-Judeo-Christianity and Allah-Jehovah-Yahweh leading to evil, not money.

If all that evil is invisible to you, maybe the Bible is magical after all.
 
The root of all evil is "picking up goals isomorphic to ones you would deny to others and insist on preserving for yourself."

Money is a big motivator to that outcome, but far from the only one.
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Lion IRC said:
Yes, some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
Some use "a root" instead of "the root".
You could also argue that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.
Click to expand...

You COULD try to Christian apologist argue that, but it'd get you laughed out of an argument.
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Laughing isn't a rational argument. Maybe you think it is but that's on you.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
The mythical characters like Adam, Eve, and children didn't have money.
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Where in the bible does it say they didn't have money?

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
....So, it's completely ridiculous to claim the love of money leads to all evil.
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I dont claim that the love of money and nothing else, exclusively leads to every single form of evil. So you need to find someone else to argue with about that theory.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Not to mention the bulleted items were mostly Islamo-Judeo-Christianity and Allah-Jehovah-Yahweh leading to evil, not money.
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No they weren't.

Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
If all that evil is invisible to you, maybe the Bible is magical after all.
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Its not invisible to me. Therefore....
 
Lion IRC said:
If the nett religious impulse and its outcomes (fruits) are overwhelmingly altruistic, rather than harmful, then it is one of the most beneficial things in human society.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what nett (sic) you’re caught in, but keep this in mind;
the same thing is true of murder.

YOU are convinced of YOUR surpassing goodness, and attribute your great goodness to the object of your superstition.
That means nothing; you are ONE person, and you could be 100% wrong. Both about the reason(s) for your goodness and about that to which you attribute it. For that matter, you could be wrong about your goodness itself, if you are holding your image of yourself up to a flawed model.
 
Lion IRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Lion IRC said:
Yes, some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
Some use "a root" instead of "the root".
You could also argue that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.
Click to expand...

You COULD try to Christian apologist argue that, but it'd get you laughed out of an argument.
Click to expand...

Laughing isn't a rational argument. Maybe you think it is but that's on you.
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You are being literal.

Lion IRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
The mythical characters like Adam, Eve, and children didn't have money.
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Where in the bible does it say they didn't have money?
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Lol. Omg, that's crazy talk.

Lion IRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
....So, it's completely ridiculous to claim the love of money leads to all evil.
Click to expand...

I dont claim that the love of money and nothing else, exclusively leads to every single form of evil. So you need to find someone else to argue with about that theory.
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You said money is the root of evil.

Lion IRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
Not to mention the bulleted items were mostly Islamo-Judeo-Christianity and Allah-Jehovah-Yahweh leading to evil, not money.
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No they weren't.
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I modeled the lists after them and so, yes, they were.

Lion IRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
If all that evil is invisible to you, maybe the Bible is magical after all.
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Its not invisible to me. Therefore....
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If you recognize those things are evil but can't see it coming from Islamo-Judeo-Christianity, then Bible is doing some kind of magic trick on you to make accountability invisible.
 
LionIRC said:
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
If all that evil is invisible to you, maybe the Bible is magical after all.
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It’s not invisible to me. Therefore....
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Therefore, the Bible is not a magic book, it’s just a book. (Which any rational toddler could have told you)

Thanks. It sure took a long time for you to get there.
😊
 
Elixir said:
Lion IRC said:
If the nett religious impulse and its outcomes (fruits) are overwhelmingly altruistic, rather than harmful, then it is one of the most beneficial things in human society.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure what nett (sic) you’re caught in, but keep this in mind;
the same thing is true of murder.

YOU are convinced of YOUR surpassing goodness, and attribute your great goodness to the object of your superstition.
That means nothing; you are ONE person, and you could be 100% wrong. Both about the reason(s) for your goodness and about that to which you attribute it. For that matter, you could be wrong about your goodness itself, if you are holding your image of yourself up to a flawed model.
Click to expand...

I said "if" the nett outcomes are altruistic.

Even if only 51% beneficial and 49% harmful that means there is still a nett benefit.

"The nett benefits or costs of policy alternatives are then compared to...."
 
Don2 (Don1 Revised) said:
You said money is the root of evil.
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The love of money.

And that some translations have..."the root of all kinds of evil".
And "a root" instead of "the root".
And that the covetous, selfish, hedonistic love of money might be a 'gateway drug' leading to unbridled surrender to other temptations such as lust, intolerance, hatred, jealousy etc.
 
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