None of those things have intrinsic worth.Do iPhones have "intrinsic worth"? Diamonds? Heroin? Beanie babies?)
None of those things have intrinsic worth.Do iPhones have "intrinsic worth"? Diamonds? Heroin? Beanie babies?)
= coins made of a commodity that's still tradeable even if you melt the coins down.* - "coins with an intrinsic worth". By now only the willfully obtuse could be unaware how I use this term.
Worth is an OPINION. Inanimate objects do not have opinions, and as such cannot have intrinsic worth.* - "coins with an intrinsic worth". By now only the willfully obtuse could be unaware how I use this term. If instead the phrase provokes another half-dozen posts repeating the same confusion as we've seen, I give up. (Would it be disrespectful to ask my detractors the questions they've still not answered? Do iPhones have "intrinsic worth"? Diamonds? Heroin? Beanie babies?)
Gold coins are worth considerably more before you melt them down, to most people. Traders don't want the trouble of weighing and assaying metal, and if they are asked to do so, they won't do it for free.= coins made of a commodity that's still tradeable even if you melt the coins down.* - "coins with an intrinsic worth". By now only the willfully obtuse could be unaware how I use this term.
What's the difference between "intrinsic worth" and "purchasing power" here?Precious metal as money -- what could be more specific than coins with an intrinsic worth almost identical to its purchasing power(*)?
Thank you, bigfield! Though I'm not sure if you're the ONLY other inhabitant of the IIDB universe who finds my distinction useful... Or are just taking pity on me!= coins made of a commodity that's still tradeable even if you melt the coins down.* - "coins with an intrinsic worth". By now only the willfully obtuse could be unaware how I use this term.
Gold also loses value upon being melted down from coins, right?BTW, the reason, if any, why diamonds and beanie babies lack intrinsic worth is NOT just that they lose value upon being melted!
Gold also loses value upon being melted down from coins, right?BTW, the reason, if any, why diamonds and beanie babies lack intrinsic worth is NOT just that they lose value upon being melted!
Before prescribing future money, let's review the history of money. In this thread I propose to discuss money in the 20th century and earlier.
. . .
A two-gram silver coin stamped with the face of a king is worth more than 2 grams of raw metal; but that's just because the coinage is CONVENIENT -- it lets us avoid weighing or assaying the silver. An official mint has tied its reputation to the coin.)
. . .
Please note that any debasement was soon reflected in the value received for the money (British money in this example) overseas, or anywhere assay tests revealed the debasement. This was intrinsic-worth money not fiat money. A penny containing only 90% of the earlier penny's silver would purchase only 90% as much as the earlier penny. A ruler who devalued would get only a "quick fix" while the market adjusted, with a cost in long-term reputation.
Yeah, I forgot about the soldiers shooting the prospectors of 1849 whenever they found a new lode.What's the difference between diamonds and gold, though?
Both:
- Are commodities.
- Are mostly used for ornament.
- Are expensive because their supply is artificially constrained.
- Are valuable for no good reason other than people want to have them. ("Diamonds are a girl's best friend.")
bilby said:Inanimate objects do not have opinions, and as such cannot have intrinsic worth.
= coins. Coins are always made of a commodity that's still tradeable even if you melt the coins down, even modern zinc pennies.= coins made of a commodity that's still tradeable even if you melt the coins down.* - "coins with an intrinsic worth". By now only the willfully obtuse could be unaware how I use this term.
On the one hand, cigarettes, peppercorns, barley, cattle and tobacco are not still tradeable if you melt them down, yet Swammi counts those as "intrinsic worth". And on the other hand, brass from melted denarii is still tradeable, but Swammi counts denarii as fiat money. We don't yet have a consistently applied explanation of what "intrinsic worth" means better than Swammi's words from post #42:... intrinsic-worth money has no such dependence. When we sell something for a pack of cigarettes or 5 grams of peppercorns we need not look to an authority for approval; we accept that medium of exchange because the cigarettes or spice has an intrinsic worth independent of its use as money. ...
Ancient Sumeria. More than 5000 years ago there was already money-oriented accounting and trading in Mesopotamia. Barley and silver were the two intrinsic-worth materials most often used for reference. ...
Other intrinsic-worth materials. In addition to silver, gold, or electrum (silver-gold alloy), other materials have been used as intrinsic-worth money. Barley and cattle were used as moneys of account in ancient Mesopotamia but were too bulky for cash convenience. Peppercorns were used variously in Europe, and tobacco in the Virginia colony;
... And the Roman coins were continually rescaled and debased. The denarius was still 90% silver in the Reign of Commodus but by the time of Claudus II the coin was just brass. The only reason debased Roman money was functional at all was the power of that Empire. The fiat money was good for taxes and that was the major cash expense for many people. ...
Presumably, the artificial constraint on gold bigfield had in mind was the human tendency to hoard it. There's an awful lot more gold than gallium, yet gold is a lot more expensive.Yeah, I forgot about the soldiers shooting the prospectors of 1849 whenever they found a new lode.What's the difference between diamonds and gold, though?
Both:
- Are commodities.
- Are mostly used for ornament.
- Are expensive because their supply is artificially constrained.
This is an unbelievers' forum. When you say something that doesn't make sense to people here they're going to challenge you on it. Why do you find it so offensive for people not to take your word as settling matters? Explain yourself better or don't, your option, but quit lashing out at unbelievers for acting like unbelievers.
- Are valuable for no good reason other than people want to have them. ("Diamonds are a girl's best friend.")
This query suggests to me that your earlier posts were just condescension.
The Big Mac index, published by The Economist, is a novel way of measuring whether the market exchange rates for different countries' currencies are overvalued or undervalued. It does this by measuring each currency against a common standard – the Big Mac hamburger sold by McDonald's restaurants all over the world.Feb 2, 2024
On the one hand, cigarettes, peppercorns, barley, cattle and tobacco are not still tradeable if you melt them down, yet Swammi counts those as "intrinsic worth". And on the other hand, brass from melted denarii is still tradeable, but Swammi counts denarii as fiat money. We don't yet have a consistently applied explanation of what "intrinsic worth" means better than Swammi's words from post #42:
IOW it has WORTH that is INTRINSIC to it
Fair enough; but if your categories were well-defined in the first place this wouldn't be a judgment call -- you could just compare a new type of money with the existing definitions and see if it satisfies them.
Whatever. I put the OPPOSITE spin on this.
The categories of money I defined for 2oth century and earlier were VERY specific.
In this thread we refer only to definition 1. A shorter definition would be simply "cash." For our purpose we classify money into just three types:
- intrinsic-worth money
- fiat money
- bank-created money
A definition that does not contain the term being defined would be more specific. A circular definition is only of use to people who already know what it refers to. So if you won't define "intrinsic worth" noncircularly then people will just have to ask you whether this or that qualifies in order to gradually work out what your underlying criteria are. That's why I asked if Bitcoin has intrinsic worth. If your category were as specific as you think then you would not have needed to say "Answers of Yes, No and Maybe are all valid!".Precious metal as money -- what could be more specific than coins with an intrinsic worth almost identical to its purchasing power(*)?
Well, if you defined the term "bank" it would be more specific. Does a simple IOU from a well-known rich guy of good reputation count as "bank-created money"?Bank-created money is/was also very specific. An (often) trustworthy banker maintains confidential records showing the balances of his customers, and provides pieces of paper (or parchment) that constitute promises to pay out precious metals.
What is it about the turn of the 21st century that makes the invention date of something influence whether it's hard to classify? If you had clear definitions then the invention date would be immaterial.The main POINT was NOT that all possible types of money were easily so classified, but that all types of money USED BEFORE THE 21st CENTURY could be so easily classified into three types.
As noted upthread, the details of technical implementation are what mainly separates Bitcoin from Yap stone money. They depend on protocols that can be hijacked but in practice won't be due to natural difficulty; balances and transaction history are publicly known. Yap money is blockchain implemented manually: consensus of human memory instead of computer memory; it's much like implementing a precedent-based legal system using oral history.I am not an expert on crypto-currency, but for Bitcoin specifically there are HUGE deviations from ANY type of 19th- or 20th-century money. The "money" depends on a protocol that can be hijacked if anyone gets (50%) control of the mining. Balances and transaction history are publicly known (anonymous IDs can be and are decoded, via spending, by law enforcement). It is the CONTRAST between the types of money that worked for centuries and new proposals for "money" that are especially interesting.
No and no. "Intrinsic worth" is an imaginary metaphysical construct like "Qi" that has no referent in the real world.(Would it be disrespectful to ask my detractors the questions they've still not answered? Do iPhones have "intrinsic worth"? Diamonds? Heroin? Beanie babies?)
In most cases the market price of the copper, brass or bronze was MUCH less than the coins' nominal monetary value. Is that what you meant? I assume you do not mean that "intrinsic value" and "market price" are synonyms.On the one hand, cigarettes, peppercorns, barley, cattle and tobacco are not still tradeable if you melt them down, yet Swammi counts those as "intrinsic worth". And on the other hand, brass from melted denarii is still tradeable, but Swammi counts denarii as fiat money. We don't yet have a consistently applied explanation of what "intrinsic worth" means better than Swammi's words from post #42:
IOW it has WORTH that is INTRINSIC to it
I've highlighted a confusion in Red. Coins of copper were used as fiat markers: In most cases the intrinsic value of the copper, brass or bronze was MUCH less than the coins' nominal monetary value.
This might go better if you could find a way to say what you mean without using metaphysical terms like "worth" and "value". Is your criterion for money categorization, then, simply whether the number written on a unit of money has a large effect on people's decisions about how much goods and services they'll trade for the unit? If the number makes little difference then you call it "intrinsic worth" or "commodity money"; if the number makes a big difference then you call it "fiat money" or "bank-created money"? And in the latter case you subcategorize based on what the number means?Since almost EVERYTHING has SOME worth, I thought -- incorrectly perhaps -- that the term "intrinsic-worth money" would imply that that "worth" was close to the monetary value.
It's not a hijack; it's people trying to understand your claims. If you changed every instance of "intrinsic worth" to "furshlugginer" people would ask you what you mean by "furshlugginer".Given that, why continue the harangue? There are Browser add-ons that will change every instance of "intrinsic worth" to "furshlugginer." Would that stifle this hijack?
Then you shouldn't have included it in your OP; And you shouldn't have continued to use it even after it became clear that it was problematic for your audience.Perhaps this repetitive disdain for the term "intrinsic worth" has amusement value, but it has little or anything to do with the thread topic.
That's not a "confusion"; It is a fact.For one thing, "commodity-as-money" might lead to Bomb#20's confusion: Copper coins trade at MUCH more than the copper's intrinsic worth, but are still made from a "commodity."
An asset is something of value owned by an individual or organization. An asset can be physical property like a building or intangible property such as a patent. Assets are an important part of and differ in many areas of law.
A financial contract or physical object with value that is owned by an individual, company, or sovereign, which can be used to generate additional value or provide LIQUIDITY. Assets are credits to the balance sheet, and may include CASH, investments, ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE, LOANS granted, INVENTORY, real estate, plant and equipment, and GOODWILL. Assets are characterized by varying degrees of LIQUIDITY, and may be funded through DEBT or EQUITY. See also LIABILITY.
I guess the difference between a brass coin and a silver coin is how much value you lose by melting it down?And on the other hand, brass from melted denarii is still tradeable, but Swammi counts denarii as fiat money.
Nickel has value outside of coin production, it is used in car batteries, among other products. If you were to melt down a single nickel today, the metal would be worth approximately $0.079, or nearly 60% more than the coin's face value.Mar 31, 2022
What is it about the turn of the 21st century that makes the invention date of something influence whether it's hard to classify? If you had clear definitions then the invention date would be immaterial.
Do Yap Rai-stones have intrinsic worth? Are they fiat money? Are they bank-created?
Then you shouldn't have included it in your OP; And you shouldn't have continued to use it even after it became clear that it was problematic for your audience.Perhaps this repetitive disdain for the term "intrinsic worth" has amusement value, but it has little or anything to do with the thread topic.
Nickel has value outside of coin production, it is used in car batteries, among other products. If you were to melt down a single nickel today, the metal would be worth approximately $0.079, or nearly 60% more than the coin's face value.Mar 31, 2022