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Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

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Loren Pechtel said:
Gospel said:
It will soon be 2025, and there are still those who believe violence is the only solution. History is filled with empires that shared this belief, and most of them have long since fallen.
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You are proposing more of what's already been an abject failure. Israel makes concessions to make Gazans happier, the Muslim world will take that as a signal to do more of the same since it worked last time. You're asking for another 10/7.
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You’re essentially asking for another 10/7 by expecting Israel to stop trying and just wait for the next attack, repeating the same cycle of violence. What do you think will happen once this current offensive against Hamas ends? Cutting off funding is a fantasy—it would require making Iran disappear. What you’re proposing is for Israel to surrender and resign itself to ongoing abuse.
 
This conflict is not "Islam versus the West"; as I've said, it is a war of ideology driven by specific actors exploiting political grievances and misusing religious narratives. Supporting the idea that "Islam" as a whole is reacting ideologically is falling into a simplistic and divisive framework created by extremists. The solution lies in dismantling propaganda, encouraging understanding, and addressing systemic inequalities that give rise to such movements.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
I'm all for efforts to disrupt the terror funding, but your "solution" is part of the problem.
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Sure, my approach wasn’t instrumental in defeating Nazi ideology during World War II, right? It didn’t contribute to the end of apartheid in South Africa. It wasn’t used to challenge and overturn the pro-smoking culture aggressively pushed by tobacco companies for decades through media and cultural propaganda. And, of course, it played no role in the Cold War and the eventual collapse of communism. Clearly, only violence solved all of these monumental ideological conflicts—nothing else ever worked. :rolleyes:
 
Swammerdami said:
More sick anti-Semitism? Hatred of Israel is becoming rampant; here's a quote that showed up in my newsfeed. Apparently some pompous Jew-hating left-winger accused Israel's military of attempting ethnic cleansing in North Gaza; then went on to say:
I am compelled to warn about what is happening there and is being concealed from us. At the end of the day, war crimes are being committed. The road we are being led down is conquest, annexation and ethnic cleansing.
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I assume Loren and Zoidy will be eager to condemn this guy as a Jew-hater. What did he say next? "Go back to Auschwitz, you kikes!" ?

Oops, I forgot to mention exactly who is being quoted here. It is former Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon (also a former Army Chief).
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If the hard right In Netanahyu’s coalition gets its way and Jewish settlements arise in the demolished areas in Gaza, it is ethnic cleansing.
 
It may be interesting or useful to review the legal basis for the Jewish State of Israel, which emerged in a territory where Muslims were the majority.

For three decades, the U.K. governed Palestine, first under a mandate from the League of Nations, then under a mandate from the United Nations. These mandates acknowledged a promise made by His Majesty's Government in 1917 to compensate Chaim Weizmann whose methods had supplied the U.K. military with the many thousands of tons of acetone it needed for munitions.

I have emphasized one clause in the commitment made by His Majesty's Government.

The Balfour Declaration said:
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet

His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
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Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:

Why would we accept that when you haven't shown us opinion pieces or interviews with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that indicate widespread determination to do anything other than have their human rights respected and their lives valued?
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A completely impossible standard.
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If it's impossible for DrZoidberg to support his claims by providing links to corroborating evidence or news reports from reputable sources, then the problem lies in the claims being made, not the request for evidence to back them up.

The same goes for your assertions. You've been repeatedly asked for links to evidence that backs up your claims. It would be helpful if you did it automatically when you are posting something factual or to use the acronym IMO when you're offering an opinion.

Like this for example:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with.
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Bigotry aside, why is that?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They are as reasonable as we are.
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Loren Pechtel said:
IMO 1) They have had a lifetime of brainwashing.

2) Any voice for peace gets stomped out by Hamas.

3) Somebody will take the money even if you somehow eliminate the current crowd. The terror money is simply too great a force for Gaza to overcome.
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*orange bold added
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Why isn't reality enough evidence?

The European left has come up with all manner of convuluted defences of Palestinian behaviour over the years. Just stop. How about, instead, look at what the Palestinians are actually doing.
 
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
Here's a question to you. Why do you think Hamas isn't releasing the rest of the hostages?
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Because the rest of the hostages are all Hamas has left with which to bargain. Also, because terrorists use human suffering as weapons and for leverage.
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How's that bargaining going? What leverage? It's all gone tits up for Hamas (and Hezbollah). IDF is running rings around them. I am so impressed by Israel right now.

There's a simpler explanation. Hamas wants to prolong the conflict to maximise Palestinian suffering to win PR. Doing everything they can to put Palestinian civilians at risk.

But it's not working out. Israel has handled themselves masterfully

Go go Israel
 
Gospel said:
Loren Pechtel said:
I'm all for efforts to disrupt the terror funding, but your "solution" is part of the problem.
Click to expand...

Sure, my approach wasn’t instrumental in defeating Nazi ideology during World War II, right? It didn’t contribute to the end of apartheid in South Africa. It wasn’t used to challenge and overturn the pro-smoking culture aggressively pushed by tobacco companies for decades through media and cultural propaganda. And, of course, it played no role in the Cold War and the eventual collapse of communism. Clearly, only violence solved all of these monumental ideological conflicts—nothing else ever worked. :rolleyes:
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You forgot Mo Mowlam's infamous massacre of the Northern Irish Catholics.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Why isn't reality enough evidence?

The European left has come up with all manner of convuluted defences of Palestinian behaviour over the years. Just stop. How about, instead, look at what the Palestinians are actually doing.
Click to expand...

Two Questions

1: Please clarify which specific Palestinian actions you’re referring to and the defenses to them that you consider to be inherently convoluted?


2: Do you equate understanding the motivations and context behind a group’s actions with defending them?

A: Yes
B: No

If A, there’s no need to answer the first question, as your stance would already be quite clear.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
Here's a question to you. Why do you think Hamas isn't releasing the rest of the hostages?
Click to expand...
Because the rest of the hostages are all Hamas has left with which to bargain. Also, because terrorists use human suffering as weapons and for leverage.
Click to expand...

How's that bargaining going? What leverage? It's all gone tits up for Hamas (and Hezbollah). IDF is running rings around them. I am so impressed by Israel right now.

There's a simpler explanation. Hamas wants to prolong the conflict to maximise Palestinian suffering to win PR. Doing everything they can to put Palestinian civilians at risk.

But it's not working out. Israel has handled themselves masterfully

Go go Israel
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Your argument that Hamas is prolonging the conflict for public relations overlooks the fact that hostages are typically used as leverage in negotiations. Extending the conflict endangers Hamas’s own survival. Didn’t you recently argue that a ceasefire would benefit Hamas? Now you’re suggesting they seek the opposite? :unsure:
 
DrZoidberg said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:

Why would we accept that when you haven't shown us opinion pieces or interviews with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that indicate widespread determination to do anything other than have their human rights respected and their lives valued?
Click to expand...
A completely impossible standard.
Click to expand...

If it's impossible for DrZoidberg to support his claims by providing links to corroborating evidence or news reports from reputable sources, then the problem lies in the claims being made, not the request for evidence to back them up.

The same goes for your assertions. You've been repeatedly asked for links to evidence that backs up your claims. It would be helpful if you did it automatically when you are posting something factual or to use the acronym IMO when you're offering an opinion.

Like this for example:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with.
Click to expand...

Bigotry aside, why is that?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They are as reasonable as we are.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Loren Pechtel said:
IMO 1) They have had a lifetime of brainwashing.

2) Any voice for peace gets stomped out by Hamas.

3) Somebody will take the money even if you somehow eliminate the current crowd. The terror money is simply too great a force for Gaza to overcome.
Click to expand...
*orange bold added
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Why isn't reality enough evidence?
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You mean, why is your opinion not good enough to be considered evidence?

It's because an opinion isn't the same thing as a fact, and reality is a fact-based concept.

DrZoidberg said:
The European left has come up with all manner of convuluted defences of Palestinian behaviour over the years. Just stop. How about, instead, look at what the Palestinians are actually doing.
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I do look. I also look at what the Israelis and everyone else involved in this conflict are doing. And I do my best to apply one single standard when deciding what I think is right or wrong, and not choosing based on who is doing something to whom.
 
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:

Why would we accept that when you haven't shown us opinion pieces or interviews with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that indicate widespread determination to do anything other than have their human rights respected and their lives valued?
Click to expand...
A completely impossible standard.
Click to expand...

If it's impossible for DrZoidberg to support his claims by providing links to corroborating evidence or news reports from reputable sources, then the problem lies in the claims being made, not the request for evidence to back them up.
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The problem is you are asking for data that is unobtainable. All we can do is look at the snapshots we get.

Consider the one that just showed up:

Given how badly this messed up last time when I tried to link a translated Arabic page I'll leave this in Arabic and let you run it through a translator:

(Note that under Firefox this went into an infinite redirection, Chrome handled it.)
Chrome translation said:
The Israeli organization ( UN Watch ), which specializes in attacking the United Nations and UNRWA,recently produced a number of videos and published them on its page, in which Palestinian minors appear, exploiting their spontaneous speech and without the presence of their parents, to incite against UNRWA, distort the facts and label it as terrorism.
Click to expand...

Seems UN Watch asked some kids for their opinions. Nothing suggests any harm being done, but anything other than the staged media isn't tolerable. Same thing we saw recently with Hezbollah getting all upset about Israel allowing reporters into the area they controlled in Lebanon to show them what Hezbollah had done.


Arctish said:
The same goes for your assertions. You've been repeatedly asked for links to evidence that backs up your claims. It would be helpful if you did it automatically when you are posting something factual or to use the acronym IMO when you're offering an opinion.

Like this for example:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with.
Click to expand...

Bigotry aside, why is that?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They are as reasonable as we are.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Loren Pechtel said:
IMO 1) They have had a lifetime of brainwashing.

2) Any voice for peace gets stomped out by Hamas.

3) Somebody will take the money even if you somehow eliminate the current crowd. The terror money is simply too great a force for Gaza to overcome.
Click to expand...
*orange bold added
Click to expand...
You think they didn't have a lifetime of brainwashing???

And you're not even addressing the other points.

You can't reason with a fanatic who still is listening to their radicalizers.
 
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
The negotiation and implementation of Oslo Accords were the closest Israelis and Palestinians came to peace. It is the peace process by which Israel's right to exist was formally recognized by the governing party of the Palestinian people, and the land inside the 1967 borders were formally and officially ceded to it.
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Oslo was the closest to peace--but note that it did not do what you claim. It kicked the can on everything important.
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Please support your claim by listing "everything important" on which it "kicked the can". Also, please explain why direct negotiations between the governing authorities of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, official recognition of Israel's Right to exist on land Zionists had claimed by force, and the ceding of that land by the Palestinians to the Israelis, wasn't important.
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What ceding? Oslo was temporary.

Arctish said:
Remember that thread I started on the Oslo Accords that had all those links to the Jewish Virtual Library and the text of the Accords themselves? The impression I got from your posts is that you never actually read the Accords or any subsequent agreements and had no interest in reading what participants in the negotiations had to say about them. So if you're offering up an opinion here, I really don't see any reason to think it's an informed one.
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I see a bunch of ambiguous stuff that you're interpreting in a very favorable light.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:

Why would we accept that when you haven't shown us opinion pieces or interviews with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza that indicate widespread determination to do anything other than have their human rights respected and their lives valued?
Click to expand...
A completely impossible standard.
Click to expand...

If it's impossible for DrZoidberg to support his claims by providing links to corroborating evidence or news reports from reputable sources, then the problem lies in the claims being made, not the request for evidence to back them up.
Click to expand...
The problem is you are asking for data that is unobtainable. All we can do is look at the snapshots we get.
Click to expand...

If data that supports DrZoidberg's claims is unobtainable then how can he or anyone else know it exists?

If DrZoidberg has no particular source and is just posting what is being said in his circle of friends, he can say so.
Loren Pechtel said:
Consider the one that just showed up:

Given how badly this messed up last time when I tried to link a translated Arabic page I'll leave this in Arabic and let you run it through a translator:

(Note that under Firefox this went into an infinite redirection, Chrome handled it.)
Chrome translation said:
The Israeli organization ( UN Watch ), which specializes in attacking the United Nations and UNRWA,recently produced a number of videos and published them on its page, in which Palestinian minors appear, exploiting their spontaneous speech and without the presence of their parents, to incite against UNRWA, distort the facts and label it as terrorism.
Click to expand...

Seems UN Watch asked some kids for their opinions. Nothing suggests any harm being done, but anything other than the staged media isn't tolerable. Same thing we saw recently with Hezbollah getting all upset about Israel allowing reporters into the area they controlled in Lebanon to show them what Hezbollah had done.
Click to expand...

And the reason for not linking to those snapshots is...?
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
The same goes for your assertions. You've been repeatedly asked for links to evidence that backs up your claims. It would be helpful if you did it automatically when you are posting something factual or to use the acronym IMO when you're offering an opinion.

Like this for example:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
DrZoidberg said:
I don't think the Palestinians can be reasoned with.
Click to expand...

Bigotry aside, why is that?

They're human beings, just like the rest of us. They are as reasonable as we are.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Loren Pechtel said:
IMO 1) They have had a lifetime of brainwashing.

2) Any voice for peace gets stomped out by Hamas.

3) Somebody will take the money even if you somehow eliminate the current crowd. The terror money is simply too great a force for Gaza to overcome.
Click to expand...
*orange bold added
Click to expand...
You think they didn't have a lifetime of brainwashing???
Click to expand...

I don't have the facts on that so whatever I might post about it is opinion, and IMO should have the acronym 'IMO' attached.
Loren Pechtel said:
And you're not even addressing the other points.

You can't reason with a fanatic who still is listening to their radicalizers.
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I agree that fanatics are unreasonable people and that trying to reason with them is extremely difficult.

I do not agree that all Palestinians everywhere are fanatics, which is what DrZoidberg has been suggesting when he says "there is zero willingness by Palestinians to live in peace with Israel" or "there is absolutely zero political movement in Palestine to live in peace with Jews", or that Palestinians don't care about a mutually beneficial solution", or any of the other racist broad brushing he's been posting that completely ignores both the history of the conflict and the humanity of the people he's disparaging.

If DrZoidberg wants anyone to take his claims seriously he can back them up with evidence or clearly label them as his own opinions and do a better job of explaining why he's right and the international community and professional diplomats working with the PA at the UN are wrong,
 
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Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
The negotiation and implementation of Oslo Accords were the closest Israelis and Palestinians came to peace. It is the peace process by which Israel's right to exist was formally recognized by the governing party of the Palestinian people, and the land inside the 1967 borders were formally and officially ceded to it.
Click to expand...
Oslo was the closest to peace--but note that it did not do what you claim. It kicked the can on everything important.
Click to expand...
Please support your claim by listing "everything important" on which it "kicked the can". Also, please explain why direct negotiations between the governing authorities of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, official recognition of Israel's Right to exist on land Zionists had claimed by force, and the ceding of that land by the Palestinians to the Israelis, wasn't important.
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What ceding? Oslo was temporary.
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And here you prove yet again that you know fuck all about the Oslo Accords.

Try reading them sometimes. And try reading the links I have provided over the past 3-4 days.
Loren Pechtel said:
Arctish said:
Remember that thread I started on the Oslo Accords that had all those links to the Jewish Virtual Library and the text of the Accords themselves? The impression I got from your posts is that you never actually read the Accords or any subsequent agreements and had no interest in reading what participants in the negotiations had to say about them. So if you're offering up an opinion here, I really don't see any reason to think it's an informed one.
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I see a bunch of ambiguous stuff that you're interpreting in a very favorable light.
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What ambiguous stuff? Which articles did you read, and what was ambiguous about them? Be specific.
 
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