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Daniel Penny acquitted in the death of Jordan Neely

 
 
 
Derec said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Neely didn't attack anyone.
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BS. He might not have punched someone (yet)
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On what planet does your statement not fail logic? I'm presuming it'd need to be a planet low on Oxygen. Neely hadn't attacked anyone. That is a fact. You can't call a fact "BS" and expect to be taken seriously.
Derec said:
...like he did on several prior occasions, but he did throw trash at passengers while making threats.
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The people on the train almost certainly did not know his history. Nor do you know how many times he yelled out on a train and didn't assault anyone. Throwing trash while making "threats" isn't a capital offense. Intervention and de-escalation very well could have worked, but some people want to treat the mentally ill as animals that can be put down with no second thought.
Derec said:
The defendant presumed the man would attack. I'm not going to rush and call this guy a "hero" for preventing an attack that might very well never have occurred.
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Note that not even the prosecution found fault with the initial restraint. So Alvin Bragg's office acknowledged that Neely presented sufficient threat to justify that level of force.
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That is inferring something from absolutely nothing. The prosecutor would likely not put forth a charge they felt would have no chance in being convicted on. If getting this guy off on the charge for actually killing the man was possible, there is no way the prosecution could think that the person could be convicted of battery. It certainly is a lot easier to demonstrate that the man wasn't of a criminal mind when trying to restrain someone he thought was a threat. That does not mean the Prosecutor concedes the initial action was 100% justified. This is just an awful way to justify violence against a person who had not demonstrated he was a violent threat to others. And I don't find that heroic.
Derec said:
In no way do I think this person intended to kill the guy. Much like in no way do I think this guy was adequately trained to assess a situation on the fly, de-escalate a situation, or restrain someone with force. A chokehold for 6 minutes?! I don't think prison is right for the defendant, but he owes the community something or at least should.
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Neely was resisting, so I do not think the he was in active chokehold for six consecutive minutes.
Note also the contribution of his intoxication (synthetic cannabinoids, which can lead to tachycardia, arrythmia and other cardiovascular sympytoms according to this) and health issues (sickle cell trait). Sickle cell trait is usually asymptomatic, but the person still has a mixture of regular hemoglobin and defective HbS. Under exertion, like resisting being restrained, deaths have occurred according to the StatPearls article.
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The waterboarding my client was performing on the deceased didn't kill the man your honor, a heart attack did.
Derec said:
Neely died due to a combination of health issues, intoxication and being restrained.
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I just threw up in my mouth. I'm going to need to step away for a bit.
 
Derec said:
ZiprHead said:
But he didn't break an old lady's face.
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You misspelled "did".
NY Post said:
Jordan had also racked up numerous arrests, including a 2021 incident in which he hit an older woman on the head and landed himself in jail for over a year. The victim, 67, fell when Jordan punched her on Nov. 12, 2021, and broke her nose, fractured her orbital bone and suffered serious bruising and swelling, charging documents said.
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Who was Jordan Neely? What we know about the man killed in NYC subway chokehold
Just a year for aggravated assault and battery? With priors for assaulting people?

And for that he is dead.
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He is not dead for that. He is dead because of some bad luck. Different things - the restraint (for which he, Neely, is responsible for due to his own actions), Neely being high on synthetic cannabinoids, Neely having sickle cell trait (which can manifest in symptoms under hypoxia or exertion, including sudden death) all combined to him losing his life. He did not deserve to die, of course, but nobody intended him to die either.
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Thank you for the dishonest quoting of my post to change the context of my words. It demonstrates your integrity.
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
Well, you are celebrating someone getting no time for criminally negligent homicide. You really can't have it both ways.
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Neither Derec nor I is doing that.
We are glad that a hero is not being further punished for protecting the other passengers as best he could. Neely is entirely responsible for the criminal behavior here. He could have prevented the whole mess, nobody else present could have.
Tom
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What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
 
zorq said:
Drunk drivers are often convicted of manslaughter. They rarely intend the death of their victims. Bad luck you might say. But drunk drivers have made a reckless decision which lead to a deadly outcome. Kind of like how choosing to employ a deadly choke-hold is a reckless decision which can lead to a deadly outcome.
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But there is a big difference. A drunk driver who simply puts himself behind the wheel is not in peril of his own harm as were others who were sharing the subway including Penny. That rationalizes such a reckless decision as also being in the course of self defense.

Also as other posters have mentioned drunk driving is an offensive decision, meaning that you put yourself in the situation without needing to. Choking someone violent who you think might harm you or others is a defensive decision to save yourself.
 
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ZiprHead said:
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
Well, you are celebrating someone getting no time for criminally negligent homicide. You really can't have it both ways.
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Neither Derec nor I is doing that.
We are glad that a hero is not being further punished for protecting the other passengers as best he could. Neely is entirely responsible for the criminal behavior here. He could have prevented the whole mess, nobody else present could have.
Tom
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What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Its not presently a criminal offense for a mentally deranged person to ride a subway but it should be. Neely had to have known what his own past was, and if I were him I would not have placed myself in a crowded container with other people to begin with.

The other people who are forced by circumstance to be around deranged people should have rights too.
 
RVonse said:
ZiprHead said:
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
Well, you are celebrating someone getting no time for criminally negligent homicide. You really can't have it both ways.
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Neither Derec nor I is doing that.
We are glad that a hero is not being further punished for protecting the other passengers as best he could. Neely is entirely responsible for the criminal behavior here. He could have prevented the whole mess, nobody else present could have.
Tom
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What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Its not presently a criminal offense for a mentally deranged person to ride a subway but it should be. Neely had to have known what his own past was, and if I were him I would not have placed myself in a crowded container with other people to begin with.
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Mentally ill people do not necessarily think like that.
RVonse said:
The other people who are forced by circumstance to be around deranged people should have rights too.
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What rights do you think those are?
 
ZiprHead said:
What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Yelling and throwing stuff at people trapped on a subway car. Penny had no way of knowing how violent Neely would get.

It's a tragedy. But if I were assigning culpability it would be in this order.
Cops
Family
Mental health system
Drug dealer
Neely
Homeless shelters
Penny

What else is sad? Neely was probably better off dead. He was homeless, crazy, drug addled and hungry. With no hope in sight, because nobody cared about him. Neely was in Hell and had no way out but death.
Tom
 
TomC said:
ZiprHead said:
What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Yelling and throwing stuff at people trapped on a subway car. Penny had no way of knowing how violent Neely would get.

It's a tragedy. But if I were assigning culpability it would be in this order.
Cops
Family
Mental health system
Drug dealer
Neely
Homeless shelters
Penny

What else is sad? Neely was probably better off dead. He was homeless, crazy, drug addled and hungry. With no hope in sight, because nobody cared about him. Neely was in Hell and had no way out but death.
Tom
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Good post, but I'm curious how cops came to be #1 in this case. Not around? Not doing their job? I would also add politicians in there somewhere. Their policies are often the source of the other problems you list.
 
TomC said:
ZiprHead said:
What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Yelling and throwing stuff at people trapped on a subway car. Penny had no way of knowing how violent Neely would get.

It's a tragedy. But if I were assigning culpability it would be in this order.
Cops
Family
Mental health system
Drug dealer
Neely
Homeless shelters
Penny

What else is sad? Neely was probably better off dead. He was homeless, crazy, drug addled and hungry. With no hope in sight, because nobody cared about him. Neely was in Hell and had no way out but death.
Tom
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What is really sad is that there many people who really have no clue what it is like to be mentally ill or to have a loved one who is mentally ill or anything about Mr. Neely's life outside of some news reports who come to the same callous judgment as yours.
 
RVonse said:
zorq said:
Drunk drivers are often convicted of manslaughter. They rarely intend the death of their victims. Bad luck you might say. But drunk drivers have made a reckless decision which lead to a deadly outcome. Kind of like how choosing to employ a deadly choke-hold is a reckless decision which can lead to a deadly outcome.
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But there is a big difference. A drunk driver who simply puts himself behind the wheel is not in peril of his own harm as were others who were sharing the subway including Penny.
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A drunk driver is a much greater danger to those around them than a person in a subway car, unless the drunk person was DRIVING the subway car.
RVonse said:
That rationalizes such a reckless decision as also being in the course of self defense.

Also as other posters have mentioned drunk driving is an offensive decision, meaning that you put yourself in the situation without needing to. Choking someone violent who you think might harm you or others is a defensive decision to save yourself.
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Not if the person you are choking hasn't assaulted anyone. The choking was pre-emptive, not defensive.
 
laughing dog said:
What is really sad is that there many people who really have no clue what it is like to be mentally ill or to have a loved one who is mentally ill or anything about Mr. Neely's life outside of some news reports who come to the same callous judgment as yours.
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Or what it's like to be trapped in a subway car with a mentally ill person yelling and throwing stuff.

Last time I was on a subway I was a big dude, very physically able. I doubt that I'd have been scared of Neely, personally. But if I had been with my mom, or other people that seemed vulnerable, I would probably have done something like Penny did.
At least, I like to believe that I would have attempted to protect others. And I wouldn't have had any more training than Penny did. It might have ended badly, but I would have protected my mom.
Tom
 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
What is really sad is that there many people who really have no clue what it is like to be mentally ill or to have a loved one who is mentally ill or anything about Mr. Neely's life outside of some news reports who come to the same callous judgment as yours.
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Or what it's like to be trapped in a subway car with a mentally ill person yelling and throwing stuff.
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Been there, done that. It is unpleasant. No one died. Perhaps because we had no trained killers in the car?

But de-escalation should be the first step. I've seen no reports that Penny or anyone else tried it.


 
TomC said:
laughing dog said:
What is really sad is that there many people who really have no clue what it is like to be mentally ill or to have a loved one who is mentally ill or anything about Mr. Neely's life outside of some news reports who come to the same callous judgment as yours.
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Or what it's like to be trapped in a subway car with a mentally ill person yelling and throwing stuff.
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Who lives in NYC that hasn't? It is a cliché!
TomC said:
Last time I was on a subway I was a big dude, very physically able. I doubt that I'd have been scared of Neely, personally. But if I had been with my mom, or other people that seemed vulnerable, I would probably have done something like Penny did.
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Indicating that you aren't sufficiently trained to handle such situations.

*person on a ledge*
*TomC sees person*
TomC: You shouldn't jump, you could hurt someone down there.
Person on Ledge: I just can't handle mgkljgsda *TomC puts person in a chokehold*

TomC said:
At least, I like to believe that I would have attempted to protect others. And I wouldn't have had any more training than Penny did. It might have ended badly, but I would have protected my mom.
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Charging at a guy with a knife trying to stab people or with a gun actively shooting people would be trying to protect some people. The people that charged the guy on this train were heroes. Attacking a person that is acting belligerently, is attacking someone who is acting belligerently. It might have stopped an attack, or might not have. Also, the guy is dead now.
 
TomC said:
ZiprHead said:
What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?
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Yelling and throwing stuff at people trapped on a subway car. Penny had no way of knowing how violent Neely would get.

It's a tragedy. But if I were assigning culpability it would be in this order.
Cops
Family
Mental health system
Drug dealer
Neely
Homeless shelters
Penny

What else is sad? Neely was probably better off dead. He was homeless, crazy, drug addled and hungry. With no hope in sight, because nobody cared about him. Neely was in Hell and had no way out but death.
Tom
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Man, you know so much about Neely, but somehow forgot to blame the dude that murdered his mother, which subsequently led to his mental health problems.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
Bomb#20 said:
Derec is celebrating someone getting no time for not committing criminally negligent homicide.
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Derec is celebrating someone getting no time for killing a person who wasn't an imminent threat to anyone by negligently using a chokehold.

It sounds different the way it is worded, doesn't it.
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According to Wikipedia:

Vázquez told The New York Times that Neely began screaming, "I don't have food, I don't have a drink, I'm fed up. I don't mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I'm ready to die."[6] Another witness heard Neely say, "Someone is going to die today."[3] Penny said that Neely repeatedly threatened to kill other passengers.[10] Vázquez said that Neely was frightening but had not assaulted anyone.[6] Other witnesses said that Neely made "half-lunge movements" at other passengers and was within "half a foot of people", and recalled fearing for their lives.[3][11] A mother with a child testified that Neely charged at passengers, and she shielded herself and her child behind a stroller, believing she might die.​

Your claim that Neely "wasn't an imminent threat to anyone" appears to be at odds with eyewitness testimony.
 
Jimmy Higgins said:
TomC said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
It sounds different the way it is worded, doesn't it.
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It sounds like a politically correct lie.
Tom
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I'm not certain where anything in "killing a person who wasn't an imminent threat to anyone by negligently using a chokehold" is either "politically correct" or a "lie".
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Tom didn't say it was a politically correct lie; he said it sounds like one. It does. It might not be a lie -- you might have claimed Neely wasn't an imminent threat to anyone because you were ignorant, or because for some mysterious reason you sincerely believed the witnesses were lying, or that they're delusional. But since your minimizing of Neely's threatening conduct didn't happen in a vacuum, but in the context of a culture in which some politically correct people inevitably lie in order to minimize the misconduct of a person in a group high on the progressive stack, who gets hurt or killed in an incident he started, at the hands of someone in a group his own group outranks, what you wrote sounds very much like another in that endless series of politically correct lies all of us are all too familiar with.

Jimmy Higgins said:
Derec said:
Jimmy Higgins said:
Neely didn't attack anyone.
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BS. He might not have punched someone (yet)
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On what planet does your statement not fail logic? I'm presuming it'd need to be a planet low on Oxygen. Neely hadn't attacked anyone. That is a fact. You can't call a fact "BS" and expect to be taken seriously.
Derec said:
...like he did on several prior occasions, but he did throw trash at passengers while making threats.
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The people on the train almost certainly did not know his history.
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It's your own statement that fails logic -- you took for granted that "punched" was the only candidate for "attack" and spliced in your accusation ahead of Derec's evidence for his "BS" claim. If you wish to contend that throwing trash at someone and threatening him doesn't qualify as "attacking", feel free to show your work.

Nor do you know how many times he yelled out on a train and didn't assault anyone. Throwing trash while making "threats" isn't a capital offense. Intervention and de-escalation very well could have worked, but some people want to treat the mentally ill as animals that can be put down with no second thought.
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Along with minimizing the misconduct of the instigator, the other lie some politically correct people inevitably tell after events like this one is maximizing the intent of the responder. "Capital offense"? "Animals that can be put down with no second thought"? Seriously?!? You effectively accused Penny of deliberately killing Neely, even though to all appearances Neely's death was a tragic unintended outcome of Penny trying only to temporarily incapacitate him. Why did you do that?
 
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