Daniel Penny acquitted in the death of Jordan Neely

[ZiprHead]

Well, you are celebrating someone getting no time for criminally negligent homicide. You really can't have it both ways.

Neither Derec nor I is doing that.
We are glad that a hero is not being further punished for protecting the other passengers as best he could. Neely is entirely responsible for the criminal behavior here. He could have prevented the whole mess, nobody else present could have.
Tom

What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?

Its not presently a criminal offense for a mentally deranged person to ride a subway but it should be. Neely had to have known what his own past was, and if I were him I would not have placed myself in a crowded container with other people to begin with.

Apperently you have no idea of what mental illness is.

The other people who are forced by circumstance to be around deranged people should have rights too.

They do.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How about not attacking Nr Neely with a deadly chokehold just because he was “scary”?

How about Neely not attacking bystanders? Leaving people like Penny to deal with the problem at the drop of a hat?

Neely wasn’t attacking anyone. Penny thought Neely might attack someone.

Neely was acting as if he was going to attack someone. A look at his history shows that sometimes he actually did so, to the point of causing serious harm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Neely wasn’t attacking anyone. Penny thought Neely might attack someone.

Do you think things would have turned out better if Penny had waited until Neely had broken an old lady's face?
Again?
Tom

On what evidence do you conclude that Mr Penny was familiar with Mr Neely’s history? Or are you simply clairvoyant?

Of course he didn't know. However, his past record shows that Penny's evaluation of him as a threat was most likely accurate.

The real problem here is that the situation was allowed to arise in the first place.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Was his only ability of restraining the guy a chokehold? If he was incapable of applying it without killing the man, arguably he shouldn't have inserted himself into the situation.

Once again, the fundamental problem of assuming there is a good answer. There were no good answers. We have no idea if somebody would have gotten hurt that day if Penny hadn't acted, but it's just a roll of the dice.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Neely wasn’t attacking anyone. Penny thought Neely might attack someone.

Do you think things would have turned out better if Penny had waited until Neely had broken an old lady's face?
Again?
Tom

But he didn't break an old lady's face. And for that he is dead.

He had done so in the past.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Was his only ability of restraining the guy a chokehold?

What do you suggest when a violent subway rider starts causing trouble for the peaceful and civil riders? Why didn't the people who know Neely provide enough information for Penny to deal with the problem in a better way?

Have you ever had to deal with a crazy person who poses a threat to the folks around you, without knowing anything about the threat?

As noted, I rode many subways while in NYC. The mentally ill are not uncommon on the subway. No one needed to be restrained or killed in the process of being restrained any of the times I rode the subway. While with my daughter in Chicago, a guy yelled a few things which definitely got my attention, a bit more muttering, and then nothing else happened. In "the City", you always need to be on guard. Criminals, the mentally ill, religious nuts, NY Jets fans. Never needed to lift a finger though, as nothing ever happened. link

Nobody got hurt that time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a threat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Derec is celebrating someone getting no time for killing a person who wasn't an imminent threat to anyone by negligently using a chokehold.

I am not celebrating. But I do think Penny should not have been charged. Neely did pose a threat, and even the Manhattan DA's office conceded that the restraint was justified.
About the chokehold itself, I do not think it would have been deadly had Neely not have SCT and high on synthetic cannabinoids. It's kind of like tasers - most people survive being zapped just fine, but some do not.

Chokeholds can kill. The fact that he was still alive when paramedics got there doesn't mean there wasn't damage. A blood choke in combat sports does not kill because it's not maintained, an airway choke is not used. I believe Penny caused Neely's death--but I see a situation where nobody has good answers.

I think Manhattan DA's office is too aggressive with cases like this, while being too lenient on other cases like armed robberies, thefts or assaults like the ones Jordan Neely perpetrated.
Penny is not the only such case. Bragg wanted to prosecute bodega worker Jose Alba who defended himself from assault by a career criminal.

Yeah, New York has a track record of persecuting self defense cases it shouldn't.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well, you are celebrating someone getting no time for criminally negligent homicide. You really can't have it both ways.

Neither Derec nor I is doing that.
We are glad that a hero is not being further punished for protecting the other passengers as best he could. Neely is entirely responsible for the criminal behavior here. He could have prevented the whole mess, nobody else present could have.
Tom

What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?

Its not presently a criminal offense for a mentally deranged person to ride a subway but it should be. Neely had to have known what his own past was, and if I were him I would not have placed myself in a crowded container with other people to begin with.

The other people who are forced by circumstance to be around deranged people should have rights too.

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

 

[TomC]

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

It also depends on the circumstances.

Had Neely behaved the same way outside on the sidewalk Penny would have had no reason to get involved. People who felt scared and vulnerable could have walked away. That's probably why Neely chose to do it in a tightly constrained place.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What was the criminal behavior Neely was engaged in again? Asking for food?

Yelling and throwing stuff at people trapped on a subway car. Penny had no way of knowing how violent Neely would get.

It's a tragedy. But if I were assigning culpability it would be in this order.
Cops

What could they have done? The guy was sent to prison when he hurt people. It's just that prison can't fix the problem.

Family

What could they have done?

Mental health system

Involuntary mental health treatment does not work. What could they have done?

Drug dealer

To some extent, but I have a problem with blaming dealers for delivering what the customer paid for. (Now, if they deliver tainted goods that's another matter!)

Neely

Yes.

Homeless shelters

Once again, what could they have done? They saw the problem but they are powerless to fix it.

Penny

I think this is far more a case of wrong place, wrong time than inherent blame. Neely was going to happen somewhere. This is a system problem, I have a hard time with blaming the spot where it comes to head.

What else is sad? Neely was probably better off dead. He was homeless, crazy, drug addled and hungry. With no hope in sight, because nobody cared about him. Neely was in Hell and had no way out but death.
Tom

The law needs to have a system for dealing with such people. In the old days he would have been in a mental institution, they threw the baby out with the bathwater with those and now there's nothing.

 

[laughing dog]

Was his only ability of restraining the guy a chokehold?

What do you suggest when a violent subway rider starts causing trouble for the peaceful and civil riders? Why didn't the people who know Neely provide enough information for Penny to deal with the problem in a better way?

Have you ever had to deal with a crazy person who poses a threat to the folks around you, without knowing anything about the threat?

As noted, I rode many subways while in NYC. The mentally ill are not uncommon on the subway. No one needed to be restrained or killed in the process of being restrained any of the times I rode the subway. While with my daughter in Chicago, a guy yelled a few things which definitely got my attention, a bit more muttering, and then nothing else happened. In "the City", you always need to be on guard. Criminals, the mentally ill, religious nuts, NY Jets fans. Never needed to lift a finger though, as nothing ever happened. link

Nobody got hurt that time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a threat.

Doesn’t mean there was. Doesn’t mean de-escalation shouldn’t be tried.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

It also depends on the circumstances.

Had Neely behaved the same way outside on the sidewalk Penny would have had no reason to get involved. People who felt scared and vulnerable could have walked away. That's probably why Neely chose to do it in a tightly constrained place.
Tom

I see no reason to attribute such motivations to him. He had a tendency towards hostility to those around him, there's no reason to think he chose the subway to corner victims. It's just the subway made it much more of a problem because it was impossible to get away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Was his only ability of restraining the guy a chokehold?

What do you suggest when a violent subway rider starts causing trouble for the peaceful and civil riders? Why didn't the people who know Neely provide enough information for Penny to deal with the problem in a better way?

Have you ever had to deal with a crazy person who poses a threat to the folks around you, without knowing anything about the threat?

As noted, I rode many subways while in NYC. The mentally ill are not uncommon on the subway. No one needed to be restrained or killed in the process of being restrained any of the times I rode the subway. While with my daughter in Chicago, a guy yelled a few things which definitely got my attention, a bit more muttering, and then nothing else happened. In "the City", you always need to be on guard. Criminals, the mentally ill, religious nuts, NY Jets fans. Never needed to lift a finger though, as nothing ever happened. link

Nobody got hurt that time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a threat.

Doesn’t mean there was. Doesn’t mean de-escalation shouldn’t be tried.

It's not some magic spell that makes the impossible happen. It's this sort of attitude that's why America is now screwed--people are tired of appeasement becoming the normal approach and drove us to jump from the frying pan to the fire.

 

[TomC]

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

It also depends on the circumstances.

Had Neely behaved the same way outside on the sidewalk Penny would have had no reason to get involved. People who felt scared and vulnerable could have walked away. That's probably why Neely chose to do it in a tightly constrained place.
Tom

I see no reason to attribute such motivations to him. He had a tendency towards hostility to those around him, there's no reason to think he chose the subway to corner victims. It's just the subway made it much more of a problem because it was impossible to get away.

I was really talking about the motivation of Penny to intervene.

But I also think that Neely got more response in a closed space than an open one. Which would incline him towards using them.
Probably.
I dunno.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Was his only ability of restraining the guy a chokehold?

What do you suggest when a violent subway rider starts causing trouble for the peaceful and civil riders? Why didn't the people who know Neely provide enough information for Penny to deal with the problem in a better way?

Have you ever had to deal with a crazy person who poses a threat to the folks around you, without knowing anything about the threat?

As noted, I rode many subways while in NYC. The mentally ill are not uncommon on the subway. No one needed to be restrained or killed in the process of being restrained any of the times I rode the subway. While with my daughter in Chicago, a guy yelled a few things which definitely got my attention, a bit more muttering, and then nothing else happened. In "the City", you always need to be on guard. Criminals, the mentally ill, religious nuts, NY Jets fans. Never needed to lift a finger though, as nothing ever happened. link

Nobody got hurt that time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a threat.

Doesn’t mean there was. Doesn’t mean de-escalation shouldn’t be tried.

It's not some magic spell that makes the impossible happen. It's this sort of attitude that's why America is now screwed--people are tired of appeasement becoming the normal approach and drove us to jump from the frying pan to the fire.

De-escalation is the humane way to defuse a situation. If it doesn't work, then violence is the next step. De-escalation is not appeasement. Your response is what is wrong with America today.

 

[Gospel]

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

It also depends on the circumstances.

Had Neely behaved the same way outside on the sidewalk Penny would have had no reason to get involved. People who felt scared and vulnerable could have walked away. That's probably why Neely chose to do it in a tightly constrained place.
Tom

I see no reason to attribute such motivations to him. He had a tendency towards hostility to those around him, there's no reason to think he chose the subway to corner victims. It's just the subway made it much more of a problem because it was impossible to get away.

Just wanted to point out that you can walk between cars on those trains anytime. Even while it is moving.

Edit: In most cases when I've done it or seen someone else do it, they aren't followed.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Doesn’t mean there was. Doesn’t mean de-escalation shouldn’t be tried.

It's not some magic spell that makes the impossible happen. It's this sort of attitude that's why America is now screwed--people are tired of appeasement becoming the normal approach and drove us to jump from the frying pan to the fire.

De-escalation is the humane way to defuse a situation. If it doesn't work, then violence is the next step. De-escalation is not appeasement. Your response is what is wrong with America today.

It still isn't a magic spell. It often doesn't work. And it is a form of appeasement that is often useful to keep things from escalating but it is completely useless in situations where the situation is unavoidable. They were all in the subway car, the target of Neely's anger had done nothing to set it off and she couldn't get away.

But once again we come back to the same fundamental flaw: the assumption that the side with the power is always in the wrong.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most mentally deranged pose no threat. Some do.

It also depends on the circumstances.

Had Neely behaved the same way outside on the sidewalk Penny would have had no reason to get involved. People who felt scared and vulnerable could have walked away. That's probably why Neely chose to do it in a tightly constrained place.
Tom

I see no reason to attribute such motivations to him. He had a tendency towards hostility to those around him, there's no reason to think he chose the subway to corner victims. It's just the subway made it much more of a problem because it was impossible to get away.

Just wanted to point out that you can walk between cars on those trains anytime. Even while it is moving.

Edit: In most cases when I've done it or seen someone else do it, they aren't followed.

Walk while sitting??

And to stand and walk is to approach him. And put herself in more danger in the process.

 

[laughing dog]

Doesn’t mean there was. Doesn’t mean de-escalation shouldn’t be tried.

It's not some magic spell that makes the impossible happen. It's this sort of attitude that's why America is now screwed--people are tired of appeasement becoming the normal approach and drove us to jump from the frying pan to the fire.

De-escalation is the humane way to defuse a situation. If it doesn't work, then violence is the next step. De-escalation is not appeasement. Your response is what is wrong with America today.

It still isn't a magic spell. It often doesn't work.

True. But it really doesn't work when it is not even tried.

And it is a form of appeasement that is often useful to keep things from escalating but it is completely useless in situations where the situation is unavoidable. They were all in the subway car, the target of Neely's anger had done nothing to set it off and she couldn't get away.

As, Gospel points out, you can move between subway cars even when they are moving. So your response is based on a false premise.

But once again we come back to the same fundamental flaw: the assumption that the side with the power is always in the wrong.

I don't know who this "we" is or what you are going on about.

 

[ZiprHead]

Neely wasn’t attacking anyone. Penny thought Neely might attack someone.

Do you think things would have turned out better if Penny had waited until Neely had broken an old lady's face?
Again?
Tom

But he didn't break an old lady's face. And for that he is dead.

He had done so in the past.

Penny didn't know that so it's irrelevant to the situation at hand.