Merged Gaza just launched an unprovoked attack on Israel

At the core of my views is a deep belief in the resilience and strength of the Israeli people. I lack confidence that Palestinians can confront Hamas and Iran or change their perception of Israelis without Israel's help. DrZoidberg and others see this as me demanding more from Israel than from the Palestinians, but how can I demand Israel do something they’re already striving to achieve? I see the people of Israel much like I see my own: a community that has faced mistreatment nearly everywhere yet continues to persevere and accomplish remarkable things despite it all.

They’ve extended help to Palestinians through initiatives like providing water and electricity to the Palestinian territories, advancing agricultural practices, creating joint industrial zones, and offering academic opportunities. Acknowledging these efforts doesn’t make them anti-Semites, nor does it diminish their struggles. Yet somehow, when I speak about these positive actions, things that build bridges between people, it's framed as making demands. I just can’t wrap my head around this argument.

All I did was ask what comes next after Hamas is removed and shared a few ideas. Now, suddenly, I’m accused of hating Jewish people and unknowingly falling for Hamas propaganda? This topic as gone mad.

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

I have no idea if a deal could have been arranged nor what might have entailed if it had materialized. Neither do you. But since you invoke history, it is pretty clear from history that Hamas takes hostages in order to make prisoner swaps.

My point was that if a prisoner swap had been done, some of the death and destruction would likely have been avoided. Nothing in your response rebuts that.

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The last prisoner swap ended up killing a lot more Israelis than the prisoners they got back. Thus it was a very bad deal for Israel--so of course the world is trying to cram it down their throat.

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The only entity cramming anything down anyone’s throats is you with your straw men.

Nothing you have written rebut the observation that an exchange would have likely avoided the massive destruction and death of the IDF’s war.

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You are the one claiming things will be different than historical precedent.

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Yet another straw man.

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Calling it a straw man doesn't make it so. You are making an assertion that things would be very different than in the past …

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No I am not, which is what makes it a straw man.

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Yes, you are.

I'm pointing out that the last swap resulted in more dead Israelis than recovered Israelis. A bunch of the people from the swap were part of 10/7.

Why would a swap now not have that same outcome? What's different?

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Nothing is different, you behave as if Gazans don’t count at all.

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Nothing is different, but you are saying it would have a different outcome. You realize that's one of the definitions of insanity?

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Not saying that at all. IMO, if there were a hostage swap instead of an invasion, there would be less death and destruction overall.

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If there had not been the hostage taking in the first place then there would have been no deaths or destruction overall.

White Lightning said:

DrZoidberg said:

Gospel said:

DrZoidberg said:

IDF is being cautious. They’re cautious to the extreme. Your demand that they are more cautious is absurd. How could Israel be more cautious than now?

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Once again, I haven’t made the demands you claim I'm making. My only issue has been with people treating the casualties as if their deaths were deserved. It’s literally right there in the quote for you to see.

I never demanded a casualty-free war, a ludicrous expectation no sane person holds. My call for caution, echoed even by the IDF's own stated operational guidelines, was a direct rebuke to the barbaric rhetoric that paints every Palestinian as a legitimate target, conflating them with Hamas.

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It’s as if you’re not even reading what I write and are just slapping 'antisemite' labels on everything I say.

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How could the IDF possibly be more cautious? While also keeping their own troops alive?

My problem with your attitude is that it places absurd demands on IDF

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Exactly. In all wars, civilian casualties are inevitable.

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Especially if one side uses civilians as human shields. Most armies do not build army bases under hospitals. Or shoot rockets from refugee camps

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

.

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The last prisoner swap ended up killing a lot more Israelis than the prisoners they got back. Thus it was a very bad deal for Israel--so of course the world is trying to cram it down their throat.

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Let me see if I understand the "point" you are relying on.
Gazan prisoners, probably already embittered and further embittered by their imprisonment, were released and participated in more Hamas attacks.
Is that more or less correct so far?

Those subsequent Hamas attacks used N=A+B anti-Israel terrorists, where B is the number recruited from the released prisoners, who'd have been unable to participate if still in prison. The attack would have failed, or at least not killed as many, with only A fighters instead of A+B. Am I still following along?

Do you think Hamas spent Every.Single.Arab willing to volunteer for jihad when it executed that attack? That they'd have been unable to stage the attack without those specific Gazans?

I was going to add some more comments, but despite my trying to be careful, LP's and ld's quote IDs were reversed after here. :-( And it wasn't worth my time to repair that.

I do want to thank Loren for not accusing any of us of being anti-Jewish in this post! I do NOT think having sympathy for dead or hungry Gazan children makes me "anti-Jewish" any more than condemning the Christian Donald Trump's policies makes me "anti-Christian."

I'm sure Loren doesn't think this either but I would appreicate it if he edits his future posts more carefully because some of them DO appear to make that connection.

Or am I wrong? Loren, do you treat anti-Zionist as synonymous with anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?

DrZoidberg said:

How could the IDF possibly be more cautious? While also keeping their own troops alive?

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Ukraine is doing quite well with small drone based explosives that don't destroy half a city block and its inhabitants.

My problem with your attitude is that it places absurd demands on IDF

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I've just demonstrated the demands are not absurd. Your lack of vision of the possibilities of other interventions is not a good argument.

Tigers! said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

Loren Pechtel said:

laughing dog said:

I have no idea if a deal could have been arranged nor what might have entailed if it had materialized. Neither do you. But since you invoke history, it is pretty clear from history that Hamas takes hostages in order to make prisoner swaps.

My point was that if a prisoner swap had been done, some of the death and destruction would likely have been avoided. Nothing in your response rebuts that.

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The last prisoner swap ended up killing a lot more Israelis than the prisoners they got back. Thus it was a very bad deal for Israel--so of course the world is trying to cram it down their throat.

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The only entity cramming anything down anyone’s throats is you with your straw men.

Nothing you have written rebut the observation that an exchange would have likely avoided the massive destruction and death of the IDF’s war.

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You are the one claiming things will be different than historical precedent.

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Yet another straw man.

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Calling it a straw man doesn't make it so. You are making an assertion that things would be very different than in the past …

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No I am not, which is what makes it a straw man.

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Yes, you are.

I'm pointing out that the last swap resulted in more dead Israelis than recovered Israelis. A bunch of the people from the swap were part of 10/7.

Why would a swap now not have that same outcome? What's different?

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Nothing is different, you behave as if Gazans don’t count at all.

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Nothing is different, but you are saying it would have a different outcome. You realize that's one of the definitions of insanity?

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Not saying that at all. IMO, if there were a hostage swap instead of an invasion, there would be less death and destruction overall.

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If there had not been the hostage taking in the first place then there would have been no deaths or destruction overall.

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That’s true bit completely irrelevant to the issue of Israel’s response to the attack.

Arctish said:

Bomb#20 said:

Arctish said:

Tigers! said:

I have been paying attentionto this thread. You have said that Hamas should not be a part of any Gazan future but you have never given any practical, realistic, achievable ways or means to achieve that aim. Unless there was a single post that I missed along the way.

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It was multiple posts.

The simple, practical, and pragmatic approach is to remember the lessons of history: punishing Germany at the end of WWI radicalized the German population and led directly to WWII, while the Marshall Plan at the end of that war brought about peace, stability, and prosperity for the region. We have no reason to think the same won't hold true for the Middle East, only racist nonsense about the character of Semitic people being unsuited for sharing and co-existence.

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How many lives on both sides of WWII could have been saved, if only the Marshall Plan had begun in 1944 instead of 1948! But the Allies just kept on shooting and bombing Germans, no doubt because Americans believed racist nonsense about the character of German people being unsuited for sharing and co-existence.

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Did you miss the point I was making, or are you trying to drag the conversation away from it?

If Israelis want the Gazan Palestinians to disavow violence and choose to pursue peaceful negotiations and reconciliation with Israel then they should ensure that the PA's efforts to do just that result in positive things for Palestinians in the West Bank. Things like recognizing the Right of the indigenous people of Palestine to remain in their homeland and participate in the government that rules over it regardless of their religious beliefs. Also, their government receiving royalties on the natural resources being extracted from their land, like what happens in nearly every other country in the world. And being able to enforce their laws within their borders, and being able to receive assistance (without imperiling their sovereignty) when confronted with criminal gangs and terrorist organizations beyond their ability to combat.

It's easy to radicalize people enduring grinding poverty, especially when there is a government or organizations that made them poor and continues to take everything of value they still have. It's much more difficult to get prosperous people living peaceful lives to take the inherent risk of upsetting the current order, even if they dislike their government and their neighbors.

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So was the point you were making, then, to miss the point Tigers! was making, or were you trying to drag the conversation away from it? He asked you how to remove Hamas from Gaza and you replied with a point about the West Bank?!? If you want to repeat the Marshall Plan, the first step is to remove Hamas. Showering defeated enemies with money comes after that. And if you're suggesting the Gazans will throw off their oppressors when they see the advantages people who make peace get, they've seen us showering Jordan with money.

Moreover, "the PA" is another name for the PLO, Hamas's predecessor in the terrorism office. We didn't correct the errors of WWI at the end of WWII by handing all that money to the Kaiser. If you want to repeat the Marshall Plan, the second step is to install a new government of our own choosing over the enemy. The Marshall Plan would not have been the success it was if Konrad Adenaur had simply pocketed the money, which is what the kleptocrats in the PA currently do with U.S. aid. Gazans didn't vote for Hamas because they wanted to make their whole lives be all about killing Jews; they voted for them because they were fed up with the PA's corruption. If you want to end grinding poverty and make positive things happen for Palestinians, it's not clear how yet more aid to the PA will accomplish that.

Swammerdami said:

Or am I wrong? Loren, do you treat anti-Zionist as synonymous with anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?

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Do you define "Zionist" as something other than a person who favors the continued existence of Israel? If somebody says he has no problem with blacks, only with uppity blacks who don't know their place, yeah, I'd kind of see him as anti-black. So then what are we to make of somebody who has no problem with Jews as long as they don't have a country and stay in their place as a persecuted minority? Does that count as anti-Jewish? I guess maybe it depends on if he thinks everybody should go back to wherever their ancestors came from, or if it's just Israel he wants deleted.

laughing dog said:

Because some of released prisoners participated?

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Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

LOL

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There is nothing the least bit funny about this.

Ignoring your straw man about don’t hit, perhaps if I got drunk your response would make sense.

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Worth a try. Maybe there is a kind of Ballmer Peak for reading comprehension. You surely seem to be needing some help in that department.

laughing dog said:

More deflection.

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No deflection. It is you who keeps deflecting about Hamas' culpability for violating the civilian zone.

From your response, I see you tacitly approve of deception on the basis of expediency.

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Afaik Israel never said that they would not strike within Al Mawasi area if Hamas is operating there. And, as Loren showed, Israel has adjusted the border of the safe zone due to operational needs throughout this conflict.
The only deception I see is the deception Hamas has practiced for years, namely hiding among civilians.

Gospel said:

I'm not answering your hypothetical scenario. My concern is that you are justifying the deaths of individuals based on a perceived, non-imminent threat. While Hamas combatants pose a clear and immediate danger, the same cannot be said for Palestinian civilians, especially children. Your argument seems to imply that these children are destined to become future Hitlers, which you use to rationalize the kind of decision you'd entertain in a time-travel scenario. Why else would you ask if I’d kill the infant, in what appears to be an attempt to persuade me to support the killing of Palestinian children?

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How about this. You know where the Führerbunker is. You command a Superfortress capable of reaching it and striking it with a bomb capable of taking it out. Do you give the go ahead even though you know there are children in the bunker?

TV and credit cards said:

Could be the bomb struck in one corner of the building destroying that section of the building and the energy from the explosion forced its way down corridor(s) of the remainder of the building and possibly through closed doors and out some window(s) milliseconds later. Couldn't it? Concrete walls and wooden doors might make this scenario possible.
I guess we all see what we want to see.

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I don't think so. It looks like a separate explosion.
Given that Hamas did admit that Deif and Salama were killed in the strike, I do not see why it's that unbelievable that high explosives were at the site as well.

By the way, I found an actual video with the footage. It's a bit bigger than the gif.

Arctish said:

I thought it was determined that the secondary explosions came from tanks of propane being used for heating and cooking.

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Determined by whom? And why is it so hard to believe that a site where Mohammed Deif (2nd in command of Al Qassam Brigades) and Rafa Salama (commander of the Khan Yunis Brigade) were staying would also have high explosives rather than just some cooking gas?

Who did the investigation, and where is their report?

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That's what I want to know about it.
You are the one who made a specific claim about what was allegedly "determined". Do you have a link to a report stating that?

I make no claims of having access to such report. But the explosion itself does look like a high explosive detonation and not a conflagration a propane tank or several would produce.

Swammerdami said:

Let me see if I understand the "point" you are relying on.
Gazan prisoners, probably already embittered and further embittered by their imprisonment, were released and participated in more Hamas attacks.
Is that more or less correct so far?

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Not just participated, but also planned and led. Especially Yahya Sinwar who was also released in 2011 and who, in October 2023, was head of Al Qassam Brigades and of Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Therefore, he was in charge of planning and ordering the 10/7 attack.

I think the Shalit deal was the biggest blunder of Bibi Netanyahu's long career as prime minister. I also think he realizes this himself, which is why he is so reluctant to agree to any large-scale swaps now, much less the "all for all" deal that Hamas has been demanding.
It is well-known that the issue of prisoners was very important to Sinwar, and played a big role in why 10/7 was conducted. He thought that taking hundreds of hostages would lead to freeing of all Palestinian prisoners, including mass-murderers like Abdullah Barghouti.
Hamas wish list of prisoners includes terror masterminds of Second Intifada

Those subsequent Hamas attacks used N=A+B anti-Israel terrorists, where B is the number recruited from the released prisoners, who'd have been unable to participate if still in prison. The attack would have failed, or at least not killed as many, with only A fighters instead of A+B. Am I still following along?

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You are not. It's not about the numbers. Hamas and Islamic Jihad (as well as smaller allied groups like Marxist-Leninist PFLP) have plenty of grunts.
It's about experienced leaders. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar. He rose to become the head of both the Al Qassam Brigades (military/terror wing of Hamas) and the head of overall Hamas in the Gaza Strip. He is the one who was in charge of planning, ordering and leading the 10/7 attack.

Do you think Hamas spent Every.Single.Arab willing to volunteer for jihad when it executed that attack? That they'd have been unable to stage the attack without those specific Gazans?

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I do not think the 10/7 invasion/massacre would have happened without one specific Gazan at the helm.

Or am I wrong? Loren, do you treat anti-Zionist as synonymous with anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?

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Do you think somebody (like say the rulers of Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq) who thinks Kurds do not deserve their own state is not anti-Kurdish?

Derec said:

laughing dog said:

Because some of released prisoners participated?

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Many of the released prisoners participated. Some of the released prisoners planned and led the invasion/massacre. First and foremost Yahya Sinwar, who was the head of Hamas in Gaza at the time.

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Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

Derec said:

LOL

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There is nothing the least bit funny about this.

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There is nothing funny about the sociopathy in the defense of killing civilians by anyone,

Derec said:

Ignoring your straw man about don’t hit, perhaps if I got drunk your response would make sense.

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Worth a try. Maybe there is a kind of Ballmer Peak for reading comprehension. You surely seem to be needing some help in that department.

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If you are speaking from your personal experience, that recommendation is garbage.

Derec said:

laughing dog said:

More deflection.

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No deflection. It is you who keeps deflecting about Hamas' culpability for violating the civilian zone.

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Unlike you, I have not denied anyone's culpability, Just trying to understand why the IDF doesn't warn civilians in a safe zone that a strike is coming. So far, all I've seen from the "only good Gazan is a dead Gazan" crowd is Hamas is there. Assuming the strikes are justified on military groudns, that does not answer why question why the IDF in its "impeccable" form doesn't warn the civilians in a safe zone.

Derec said:

From your response, I see you tacitly approve of deception on the basis of expediency.

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Afaik Israel never said that they would not strike within Al Mawasi area if Hamas is operating there. And, as Loren showed, Israel has adjusted the border of the safe zone due to operational needs throughout this conflict.

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A safe zone means no striking. So, by designating an area as a safe zone, they are saying they will not strike.

Derec said:

The only deception I see is the deception Hamas has practiced for years, namely hiding among civilians.

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Try opening your eyes and thinking, instead of swallowing propaganda.

Bomb#20 said:

Swammerdami said:

Or am I wrong? Loren, do you treat anti-Zionist as synonymous with anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish?

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Do you define "Zionist" as something other than a person who favors the continued existence of Israel? If somebody says he has no problem with blacks, only with uppity blacks who don't know their place, yeah, I'd kind of see him as anti-black. So then what are we to make of somebody who has no problem with Jews as long as they don't have a country and stay in their place as a persecuted minority? Does that count as anti-Jewish? I guess maybe it depends on if he thinks everybody should go back to wherever their ancestors came from, or if it's just Israel he wants deleted.

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I see that "anti-Zionist" was not the proper term here. It should have been anti-Netanyahu. Sorry for the error.

laughing dog said:

Thank you, the fact that some of the prisoners helped plan and lead the massacre is good evidence. Participation is not because there are always people who follow.

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Teacher says, every time laughing dogs concedes a point an angel gets his wings.

There is nothing funny about the sociopathy in the defense of killing civilians by anyone,

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And we're back. Civilians getting killed is a tragic consequence of war. Especially in an urban setting. And triply so when fighting an enemy that sees death of their own civilians as a strategic advantage because dead Gazans influence the useful idiots abroad (for example on university campuses or in Dearborn, MI).

Reuters said:

Yuval Bitton, who was Sinwar's dentist before being recruited by Israel's prison intelligence service, recounted questioning Sinwar about the futility of Hamas's strategy when they kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilat Shalit with the aim of using him as leverage for the release of Palestinian prisoners.
Israel's responded by entering Gaza, killing hundreds Hamas fighters and thousands of civilians.
"I said to Sinwar, 'Tell me, is it worth 10,000 innocent people to die in order to free 100 prisoners," Sinwar's reply was unequivocal, "even 100,000 is worth it."

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[emphasis mine]
Yahya Sinwar: The Hamas leader committed to eradicating Israel is dead

The sociopaths are the Hamas leaders who started this war, and who are conducting it in a way not only to harm Israeli civilians, as many were murdered and kidnapped by Hamas, but also their own civilians.

If you are speaking from your personal experience, that recommendation is garbage.

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Not from personal experience, but at this point it might be worth it for you to try.

Derec said:

Arctish said:

I thought it was determined that the secondary explosions came from tanks of propane being used for heating and cooking.

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Determined by whom? And why is it so hard to believe that a site where Mohammed Deif (2nd in command of Al Qassam Brigades) and Rafa Salama (commander of the Khan Yunis Brigade) were staying would also have high explosives rather than just some cooking gas?

Who did the investigation, and where is their report?

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That's what I want to know about it.
You are the one who made a specific claim about what was allegedly "determined". Do you have a link to a report stating that?

I make no claims of having access to such report. But the explosion itself does look like a high explosive detonation and not a conflagration a propane tank or several would produce.

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Try reading what I posted again.

I said "I thought it was determined..."

In other words, "If I recall correctly" which includes the admission I might be wrong.

I then asked about who did the investigation and where I could find the report so I could read them.

I did not make a positive claim about whether the reports I might or might not have read were/are accurate.

laughing dog said:

Unlike you, I have not denied anyone's culpability,

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No? Because you keep harping about what IDF should do, but never about what Hamas did that necessitated the IDF response. Had Hamas not gone to Al Mawasi, there would be no need for IDF to operate there.

Just trying to understand why the IDF doesn't warn civilians in a safe zone that a strike is coming.

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Because that would also have warned Deif and Salama, as well as all the Hamas fighters with them.

So far, all I've seen from the "only good Gazan is a dead Gazan" crowd is Hamas is there. Assuming the strikes are justified on military groudns, that does not answer why question why the IDF in its "impeccable" form doesn't warn the civilians in a safe zone.

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Nobody here is saying that the "only good Gazan is a dead Gazan". It is Hamas that wants to maximize civilian casualties for propaganda purposes. And again, warning civilians would also warm Hamas fighters and commanders. For a long time, IDF had rules of engagement to warn residents. People would clear out (unless they refuse, like Nizar Rayan) and only assets like explosives and weapons would be destroyed. It was a strategy of containment of Hamas rather than destruction. The 10/7 massacre changed the rules of engagement. You can blame Hamas for that as well.

A safe zone means no striking. So, by designating an area as a safe zone, they are saying they will not strike.

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That is your interpretation. Israel is not bound by it.
There is no absolute safety in war. A safe zone means relative safety. And indeed, there are far fewer casualties in Al Mawasi than in the evacuation zones, esp. in North Gaza where things are very dire for ~15k who still refuse to leave.

Try opening your eyes and thinking, instead of swallowing propaganda.

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You should try following your own advice.