• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

I wonder if 'supernatural' beings could use their superior knowledge of quantum mechanics and defy gravity.

What evidence is there that a supernatural being exists? What evidence is there that if such a being existed it would have a superior knowledge of quantum mechanics?

I wonder if Santa's flying reindeer could use their superior knowledge of aerodynamics to overcome the tendency to burn up when they reach velocities considerably higher than those a space shuttle is subjected to upon re-entry to the atmosphere. As soon as we can get our hands on some of these reindeer and run a few tests we'll be able to get some better intelligence about such things. Until then I won't blame skeptics for their lack of belief in flying reindeer or their stance that such feats as delivering Santa to all the good little boys and girls houses throughout the world in a 24 hour period of time is impossible.
 
Any such claim is made more credible if there are others reporting the same phenomenon, as long as we know they're not doing this as a prank. If there are enough such serious reports of the "dragon," at some point the claim has to be taken seriously.
That's funny.
What if 'enough' reports include tales that make the dragon longer each time, and more powerful, and give him greater supernatural abilities with each effort to describe him? What if each successive report puts him in a different city at the same time? What if each report is anonymous and we can't tell if they're saying they SAW the dragon in Pittsburgh or if they merely HEARD that the dragon was in Pittsburgh?

Wouldn't all this lead the claim to be taken LESS seriously?
 
So are scientists. Science continually attempts to falsify theories because scientists are skeptical. Both you and Lion seem to believe that scientists unquestionably BELIEVE all models, hypotheses, and theories to be TRUE. They don't.

Not all .. some.
You would still be mistaken. Science doesn't BELIEVE they are TRUTH, they recognize the ones better at explaining observations and predicting future observations are likely closer to reality. However theories that are known to be wrong are still used because they work well enough until a better model is found. Example: We know Newton was wrong in the limits but his models are still good enough for us to send probes to Mars and make a landing on that planet.
 
You would still be mistaken. Science doesn't BELIEVE they are TRUTH, they recognize the ones better at explaining observations and predicting future observations are likely closer to reality. However theories that are known to be wrong are still used because they work well enough until a better model is found. Example: We know Newton was wrong in the limits but his models are still good enough for us to send probes to Mars and make a landing on that planet.

I could go with that,with science using some bearing for study while 'updating newer and better models'.
 
But if so, then it wouldnt be a miracle, would it?

You mean we shouldn't be surprised?

There's a difference between something that could happen, and something that's probably true. It could be that dragons once actually existed. Is it probably true? No. The fact that supernatural beings could have superior knowledge of QM doesn't make it suddenly more probable that supernatural beings exist, and we don't even know to what extent QM could be applied practically to the macro world in the first place.
 
There is evidence that the Jesus miracle acts really happened, so it's not unreasonable to believe it.

But you miss the point.

I am not claiming that the Jesus story is made up.

I am claiming that the story being a made-up fiction is certainly a possibility for which believers have a burden to counter.
It remains possible that it's just a made up story.

One might reason that it's made up, based on the premise that anything containing miracle claims probably is made up, which you can make an argument for. But it's also a reasonable possibility that the Jesus story is true, because there is no evidence that it was "made up" -- in contrast to most miracle legends for which we have evidence that they were made up -- and there are extra sources attesting to the Jesus miracle events.

So, even if most miracle claims are unreasonable because the stories were obviously made up, the Jesus case is at least one exception to this rule.


There is an advantage to it being a made-up story in that we would not have to rewrite any of the laws of the universe in order to explain it.

No, it would not likely require that the "laws of the universe" be rewritten. But it might require a rewriting or revision of some textbooks.

The part that would have to be rewritten, or revised or reinterpreted, would be those parts of "science" which say that miracle events are proven to be impossible, or are by definition impossible. But good science does not make arrogant claims like this. Good science leaves it open and just says we don't know, and that one has to be skeptical of all such claims.

But further, there is no evidence that the Jesus miracle stories were made up, so the only reason to consider them to be made up is the fundamental premise that miracle events can never happen. This is really the only argument against the Jesus miracle claims.

There may be good reason to doubt certain miracle elements in the gospel accounts, or consider some of it as a result of mythologizing, but this is not evidence that the entire miracle narrative is made up. Rather, the existence of some mythologizing, especially later legend-building such as we see in the 2nd- and 3rd-century apocryphal gospels, is an indication that there must have been an original early legend based on real events that happened in fact and which served as a starting point to which later fictions became attached.

I.e., there had to be something real in the first place for the later legends to build on. And the best possibility of this real something is the basic healing miracles, which easily explains how Jesus became deified so quickly, and also the resurrection. With this basic beginning, we can see how the mythologizing process easily got started. But without this as the beginning point, there is no explanation as to how the original myth-making process got started.

(I know some posters here have pretended to offer an explanation, but their scenarios make no sense.)


I have not said anything about what anyone else should hold as a position.

Can anyone say to another what they should believe or hold as a position or claim is the truth? Should no one ever judge what another thinks, or suggest it's wrong to believe that or to think that?

At a certain point it is OK to accuse another of having an unreasonable belief, if the belief comes into the discussion. In the case of miracle claims, the believer has a certain obligation to give a legitimate reason for believing it.

It's appropriate to criticize it as unreasonable if the believer claims it's true but there is no evidence that the miracle event ever really happened. That it's taught by some religion is not evidence that it's true. If a believer insists that this miracle happened only because his religion teaches it, but there is no evidence that it really ever happened, then this is unreasonable and it's OK to judge that as an unreasonable belief or criticize it as unreasonable.

The Jesus miracle acts are not in this category, because there is evidence that they happened. So instead of criticizing this as being an unreasonable belief, one can only say that the evidence is not strong enough as to require every reasonable person to believe it. There is an element of uncertainty which leaves it in doubt as to what really happened. But that the event really happened is one reasonable possibility.

But this cannot be said for most miracle claims, because there is no evidence for them, or virtually no evidence.
 
What kind of evidence do you have that the supernatural elements of Haruman's story were made up? Or the ones of Joseph Smith? That's right, none. Time to accept them as factual.

Anyway, we know the Jesus miracles were made up simply because miracles don't happen. Look around you, see many miracles? No? Thought so. But you are running from this fact with "hurrdurr it's just a dogma that miracles don't happen", because you have jack shit else to say about it.

It is also funny seeing a Christian using "dogma" as a pejorative and an implicant of "obvioisly false". You know what else is held as a dogma? The god-nature of Jesus. Obviously false, then.
 
I've seen documentaries of the wartime as anyone else has seen. Now these testimonies were taken from people still alive who remember to the best of their recollection, what they saw during then. The programme was about an hour long and as a number of them began explaining their experience. A picture was developing giving the documentary a story, decades later, which would now become documented .

Even if you were to say that the existence and miracles of Jesus was written 10 - 50 - 80 years later after his death those people that witnessed his life would still be alive and their experience documented first hand.
 
I've seen documentaries of the wartime as anyone else has seen. Now these testimonies were taken from people still alive who remember to the best of their recollection, what they saw during then. The programme was about an hour long and as a number of them began explaining their experience. A picture was developing giving the documentary a story, decades later, which would now become documented .

Even if you were to say that the existence and miracles of Jesus was written 10 - 50 - 80 years later after his death those people that witnessed his life would still be alive and their experience documented!

Do you think that the Gospels are reliable sources?
 
Do you think that the Gospels are reliable sources?

You have to consider there are wider implications and were also to put into perpective; Jesus and his followers were dangerous to the 'laws of the rabbi's' and the 'institution of Rome'. Because then you'll not hear much of Jesus in either of their records but some do slip through.

As it is with humans , It would be 'wise as politics' to keep Jesus out of historic mention and not make a matyr of someone who could bring them both down. Besides just because the four gospels contained within the bible makes it seem like one author,making this something to debate with (not what you implied). It is actually different sources contained within.
 
Last edited:
Even if you were to say that the existence and miracles of Jesus was written 10 - 50 - 80 years later after his death those people that witnessed his life would still be alive and their experience documented first hand.
So you're imagining witnesses who were, let's say, 20 to 30 years old when they witnessed Jesus, i would guess? Who wrote it when they were 30/40 - 70/80 - 100/110 years old?

What was the average life expectancy around then?
 
Back
Top Bottom