120 Reasons to Reject Christianity

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Not that I was ever impressed with Calvin's TULIP....but....

...I do have to brush up on Calvin to be honest.

Calvin's doctrine of predestination/soteriology and God's foreknowledge collapses, in my opinion, when you realise that election is meaningless if not one single Calvinist can tell you whether or not they are one of the elect. They don't know!

It's like saying God knows who are the elect and who are the damned but He is keeping it a secret because......?

I once knew I was saved by Jesus' grace, thought that for many years. Now, meh...what god. Am I still saved? Who knows....

 

[James Brown]

If the slaughter of the innocent man named Jesus was such a perfect solution to the problem of sin, then it would seem to me that the best time to implement that solution would be five minutes after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

 

[Learner]

LOL...Heisner has intersected with Stichin's writings...what a crack up. I read the 12th Planet, as I accidentally picked it up as what I thought was some oddball SciFi book, in a used book store when I traveled for work too much back in the 90's. Wow, was it odd....

What can I say ... I haven't read the book but he had a few lectures or talks which is still on the net. What is also "odd" and incredible is some of the theories or rather beliefs are based on Sitchins Annunaki translation in quite a few current newagey cults or trends. The return of Planet X or Nibiru where so many are into it. I think it has died down a little though..Im sure you've had a good laugh lol. Not forgetting some "channellers" speaking with the voice of ancient beings who talk of the annunaki .

If there are beings speaking through them , I'd call it demonic personally.

(oops was a bit late)

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If the slaughter of the innocent man named Jesus was such a perfect solution to the problem of sin, then it would seem to me that the best time to implement that solution would be five minutes after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Ya, but then there'd only have been two people watching and God wouldn't have been able to make such a production out of it.

Frigging divas.

 

[Learner]

If the slaughter of the innocent man named Jesus was such a perfect solution to the problem of sin, then it would seem to me that the best time to implement that solution would be five minutes after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Once you gain that awareness of the physical temptations and the need to satisfy these emotions, theres no turning back. Sin is born from the wide spectrum of attractive desires. God was there so there wouldn't be a need for Jesus that moment. He decided that Adam and Eve should experience and "get what they wished for", so to speak. Would be my understanding.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Nope. God Himself has spontaneous free will.

... It doesn't mean that he has the potential to know everything, it means he actually knows it.

That's your opinion. I don't agree.
I think God can of His own free will do something completely novel - never done or thought of before.
Who other than an omnipotent being, with nothing to fear, can afford to not worry about what might happen next?

...His knowledge is infinite, not some subset of infinite that he can increase towards infinity.

There is no compulsion on God to 'know' in the present moment, everything about the past and the future. Anything He wants to know He can instantly know at will. So why must He know in advance whether I will freely choose to obey Him? God can observe my free actions as they happen.

...
If you're talking about a god who doesn't know everything, then you're just solving the incompatibility by removing omniscience and turning the tri-Omni god into a bi-Omni god.

Nope. It's the exact opposite. I'm arguing for an even MORE powerful maximally great being than the one you posit.
Your idea of God compels Him to act a certain way.
Your idea of God 'programs' Him into something like computer program which cannot ever go off script by doing something spontaneous, unprogrammed or unforeseen.
My God is totally free and unlimited to do something He had never thought of before.
My God could write a completely new symphony.
Your 'god' couldn't because your 'god' has already thought of it and so cannot 'create' it.

...An omniscient being knows all the spoilers for everything that is and everything that ever will be. That's what omniscience is.

Nope. You can keep asserting your opinion and I will keep asserting mine over and over if you like.

... Edit - Oh, and yes, omnipotence and omniscience are logically incompatible too, but that's a whole separate discussion.

You cannot know everything unless you are omnipotent.
If we both get asked a trivia question and I can answer it faster than you which one of us has the better ability to answer trivia questions?

Your theory of knowledge seems a little shallow and one-dimensional because it simply asserts that God 'knows' stuff.
I think you need to consider how knowledge is used.
When and if God wants to access information He is ABLE to do so.

Ya, you're talking about a non-omniscient being here. He's an omnipotent being who is using his omnipotence to have himself know whatever he wants whenever he wants, but has chosen not to give himself omniscience, because he would then already know those things.

That's completely moot, though, since the problem being discussed doesn't stop existing in your scenario. You're saying that God can choose to know in advance what you'd choose to do. If he makes that choice, can he be wrong? If not, then you still don't have free will since your actions must be predetermined before you take them in order for that to be the case. His deciding not to look behind the curtain doesn't mean that there's something different going on behind the curtain. If it is possible for somebody to know with 100% accuracy the exact results of every action you will take then you're not free to make different choices when it comes time for you to take those actions.

 

[Learner]

Ya, you're talking about a non-omniscient being here. He's an omnipotent being who is using his omnipotence to have himself know whatever he wants whenever he wants, but has chosen not to give himself omniscience, because he would then already know those things.

That's completely moot, though, since the problem being discussed doesn't stop existing in your scenario. You're saying that God can choose to know in advance what you'd choose to do. If he makes that choice, can he be wrong? If not, then you still don't have free will since your actions must be predetermined before you take them in order for that to be the case. His deciding not to look behind the curtain doesn't mean that there's something different going on behind the curtain. If it is possible for somebody to know with 100% accuracy the exact results of every action you will take then you're not free to make different choices when it comes time for you to take those actions.

An omnipotent being able to see everything should then be able to see "many fates and various final destinies of just one individual. Various endings to a story. The knowing of all the various paths and outcomes of just one individual. Freewill then makes sense and is then neccessary as to see "which paths his creation will choose just by himself", out from the various fates God has already foreseen.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Again, omniscient God. If God is truly omniscient and foresees all future events, when he contemplates creating a Universe, all will unfold in a hard determinate fashion based on what initial starting state he chooses to create the Universe from. A God that is truly omniscient utterly determines every thing and we cannot have free will in any form. God has to choose what Universe will unfold from his initial stating position.

Perfect being theology, maximal being theology, which is very much in vogue today with many theologies leaves little room for free will. Now, why would a God create a Universe with original sin?

 

[Learner]

Again, omniscient God. If God is truly omniscient and foresees all future events, when he contemplates creating a Universe, all will unfold in a hard determinate fashion based on what initial starting state he chooses to create the Universe from. A God that is truly omniscient utterly determines every thing and we cannot have free will in any form. God has to choose what Universe will unfold from his initial stating position.

Perfect being theology, maximal being theology, which is very much in vogue today with many theologies leaves little room for free will. Now, why would a God create a Universe with original sin?

Then what would be the importance or measure of a human being if he or she is not independent from some sort of spiritual puppetry? God also wants to be loved back with genuine independent will. Potential of sin is within the flesh as it more or less says in the bible. No one is born with sin in reality , just the potential to sin and even more so if the desire is great. I believe this is the understanding to Christians.(or some )

 

[bilby]

Again, omniscient God. If God is truly omniscient and foresees all future events, when he contemplates creating a Universe, all will unfold in a hard determinate fashion based on what initial starting state he chooses to create the Universe from. A God that is truly omniscient utterly determines every thing and we cannot have free will in any form. God has to choose what Universe will unfold from his initial stating position.

Perfect being theology, maximal being theology, which is very much in vogue today with many theologies leaves little room for free will. Now, why would a God create a Universe with original sin?

Then what would be the importance or measure of a human being if he or she is not independent from some sort of spiritual puppetry?

There would be none. Which is directly implied by the existence of an omnipotent God.

Of course, there can equally be no importance to, or measure of, a human being in a godless universe - other than the importance and measures that he makes for himself.

God also wants to be loved back with genuine independent will.

Then He cannot be omniscient and omnipotent. Omniscient beings don't want anything; they already know exactly what they are going to get; And omnipotent beings don't want anything, because they can simply have anything.

Your God seems to be omnipotent only when it suits your argument; The rest of the time, he's just an average schmo who has desires and needs that may not be fulfilled. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

What I call Omingenesis, the idea above that logically speaking, free will is impossible if God is truly omniscienct and creates all, logically forces us to state that all is determined in this Universe and Free Will is logically impossible Why then moral evil? Why punish people with everlasting torment in hell for something a person had no choice in doing? Where is God's love, justice and mercy here?

I find my little logical problem as formulated here to be rather strong. We have no free will, and God is in no way good.

 

[Learner]

There would be none. Which is directly implied by the existence of an omnipotent God.

Of course, there can equally be no importance to, or measure of, a human being in a godless universe - other than the importance and measures that he makes for himself.

He makes for himself...Yes, I agree. In both our worlds .. Freewill.

The reply above is only from a creationist perspective of why God would do and not do certain things.

Then He cannot be omniscient and omnipotent. Omniscient beings don't want anything; they already know exactly what they are going to get; And omnipotent beings don't want anything, because they can simply have anything.

Then you are not aware of the claims that God wants "love" and it means not himself to himself.

Your God seems to be omnipotent only when it suits your argument; The rest of the time, he's just an average schmo who has desires and needs that may not be fulfilled. You can't have it both ways.

Better than that. God can have it many ways. He is omnipotent.

 

[Learner]

What I call Omingenesis, the idea above that logically speaking, free will is impossible if God is truly omniscienct and creates all, logically forces us to state that all is determined in this Universe and Free Will is logically impossible Why then moral evil? Why punish people with everlasting torment in hell for something a person had no choice in doing? Where is God's love, justice and mercy here?

Your post is too simplistic explanation for the various argument. There is a much bigger picture in the biblical context to your said above.

I find my little logical problem as formulated here to be rather strong. We have no free will, and God is in no way good.

Fair enough

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, you're talking about a non-omniscient being here. He's an omnipotent being who is using his omnipotence to have himself know whatever he wants whenever he wants, but has chosen not to give himself omniscience, because he would then already know those things.

That's completely moot, though, since the problem being discussed doesn't stop existing in your scenario. You're saying that God can choose to know in advance what you'd choose to do. If he makes that choice, can he be wrong? If not, then you still don't have free will since your actions must be predetermined before you take them in order for that to be the case. His deciding not to look behind the curtain doesn't mean that there's something different going on behind the curtain. If it is possible for somebody to know with 100% accuracy the exact results of every action you will take then you're not free to make different choices when it comes time for you to take those actions.

An omnipotent being able to see everything should then be able to see "many fates and various final destinies of just one individual. Various endings to a story. The knowing of all the various paths and outcomes of just one individual. Freewill then makes sense and is then neccessary as to see "which paths his creation will choose just by himself", out from the various fates God has already foreseen.

Right. However, he'd also be able to see which one of those outcomes would come to pass.

 

[James Brown]

If the slaughter of the innocent man named Jesus was such a perfect solution to the problem of sin, then it would seem to me that the best time to implement that solution would be five minutes after Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

Once you gain that awareness of the physical temptations and the need to satisfy these emotions, theres no turning back. Sin is born from the wide spectrum of attractive desires. God was there so there wouldn't be a need for Jesus that moment. He decided that Adam and Eve should experience and "get what they wished for", so to speak. Would be my understanding.

And in a few generations, their descendants would become so sinful that the only possible solution was mass genocide. Wasn't God there at that time? Couldn't that have been avoided if the omniscient God realized that letting Adam and Eve get what they wished for wouldn't end on a positive note after all?

Once again, God is presented as a kind of parent, standing back and letting the kids figure out things on their own, except no loving parent would damn his kids to death for disobeying an arbitrary rule, so in that way he's nothing like a parent either.

 

[Learner]

Right. However, he'd also be able to see which one of those outcomes would come to pass.

Sort of just repeating, I can only fathom with limitation that for freewill and omnipotence to make sense at least for me here; He would see all the outcomes equally but "arranges it so" that the individual chooses the outcome.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Right. However, he'd also be able to see which one of those outcomes would come to pass.

Sort of just repeating, I can only fathom with limitation that for freewill to make sense at least for me; He would see all the outcomes equally but "arranges it so" that the individual chooses the outcome.

Well ya, you need to impose limitations so that it makes sense. That's because it doesn't make sense without them. if you're not willing to settle for "its a mystery" and stop there, you need to rewrite the parameters.

 

[Learner]

And in a few generations, their descendants would become so sinful that the only possible solution was mass genocide. Wasn't God there at that time? Couldn't that have been avoided if the omniscient God realized that letting Adam and Eve get what they wished for wouldn't end on a positive note after all?

once again, God is presented as a kind of parent, standing back and letting the kids figure out things on their own, except no loving parent would damn his kids to death for disobeying an arbitrary rule, so in that way he's nothing like a parent either.

Like the covenant with Noah. Man by his own hand will be punished when he sheds blood he is his own executioner. If we were to accept that God didn't exists. Then it will be just as it has always been.. only... the picture becomes clear. It is true!...we are evildoers and have indeed been doing seriously henious things to other human beings, nature and animals.

 

[Learner]

Well ya, you need to impose limitations so that it makes sense. That's because it doesn't make sense without them. if you're not willing to settle for "its a mystery" and stop there, you need to rewrite the parameters.

Parameters according to who ? We are accused of moving the goal posts. We move it wider but the parameters are set a one-way narrow. Freewill is impossible so how can there be any other explanation?

It is a mystery I can settle for.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well ya, you need to impose limitations so that it makes sense. That's because it doesn't make sense without them. if you're not willing to settle for "its a mystery" and stop there, you need to rewrite the parameters.

Parameters according to who ? We are accused of moving the goal posts. We move it wider but the parameters are set a one-way narrow. Freewill is impossible so how can there be any other explanation?

It is a mystery I can settle for.

Parameters according to the Christians. You say you have an omniscient God and you say you have free will. Then when you are asked to reconcile those two things, the omniscience suddenly becomes significantly less omni or the free will suddenly becomes significantly less free.

Oh, and there can easily be another explanation.