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6:00pm Curfew for men

I am nor even attracted to such people, but you do you. ;)


So is it your opinion that it's "rape" whenever there is an "asymmetry of information", however you want to define it?

As far as minors, here is the logical problem with Toni's view.
In Georgia, and many other states, age of consent is 16. A 16 year old is deemed capable of consenting to sex with a partner of any age.
So while there are very good reasons to say that sex work should be limited to those 18 and over (and fully legal for them, something where I and Toni also vehemently disagree!), it does not make any sense to pretend that those slightly under 18 cannot consent to paid sex and that thus this is somehow "rape".

It is a false dichotomy to say that something is either legal or else must be classified as "rape".

The two bolded parts contradict each other.

Anyone with an ounce of integrity or any concern for self preservation would take care to ensure that they did not commit a felony by having sex with a prostitute under age 18.

And how would someone do that? They're not going to tell their clients their true identity and thus there's no way to verify age.
I’m 100 percent certain that prostitutes who look like me cannot be mistaken for anything other than over 18 years of age. Hell you could pick someone half my age and Comfortably avoid Underaged girls.

Quit going for ‘barely legal’ which mostly means too young/not legal but nobody’s looking out for this child so have at it.
 
And how would someone do that? They're not going to tell their clients their true identity and thus there's no way to verify age.
I’m 100 percent certain that prostitutes who look like me cannot be mistaken for anything other than over 18 years of age. Hell you could pick someone half my age and Comfortably avoid Underaged girls.

Quit going for ‘barely legal’ which mostly means too young/not legal but nobody’s looking out for this child so have at it.

Insisting on one whose looks can't be under 18 is going to take out a lot of the market as some 17 year olds will look a lot older, especially if they've been doing drugs.

What I have suggested in the past is prostitute licenses. They're verifiable (QR code that brings up the current status), photo but only a working name, not a real name. It also lists the results of their latest STD check.

Of course that would require legalizing prostitution and the sensible behavior from the legislature. I think the former is unlikely and the latter is even more questionable.
 
I’m 100 percent certain that prostitutes who look like me cannot be mistaken for anything other than over 18 years of age.

Aren't you like 60? This is yet another example why your views on this issue are completely unreasonable.
 
The two bolded parts contradict each other.
No they aren't. We can have minimum age for sex workers without pretending that sex with somebody under that age, even unknowing, must be classified as "rape".

Anyone with an ounce of integrity or any concern for self preservation would take care to ensure that they did not commit a felony by having sex with a prostitute under age 18.
Which is not in any way related to the erroneous claim that the two statements are contradictory.
 
Unresponsive to the point. Your opinion of the law does not negate that it is not libelous to call what is legally considered rape "rape".
It's libelous to suggest that I desire to seek such behavior, however you want to define it.

Not really. You admit you have no aversion to breaking the law against prostitution in your state. It is not out of bounds or reason to ask how far you are willing to break that law.

That's a logical fallacy. It is no different that claiming that just because a gay man violates anti-sodomy laws (pre-Lawrence) in their state, it is ok to allege that he must also want to have sex with people under age of consent.

It is also your MO.
It is not. But at least you admit it is yours.
 
I’m 100 percent certain that prostitutes who look like me cannot be mistaken for anything other than over 18 years of age.

Aren't you like 60? This is yet another example why your views on this issue are completely unreasonable.

Why would my age make my views 'completely unreasonable?'

I am very obviously not anywhere near 17 years of age.

I think it is way past time for society to put to rest the titillation of having sex with girls who are too young to legally consent. Either you are in favor of sex between consenting adults once they are actually adults--or you are not.

There simply is no valid excuse for an adult to have sex with a prostitute under the age of 18. None. It floors me that you are seeking to justify it and act as though somehow I'm incapable of 'understanding' because I'm older than you are. Bullshit. It's much closer to the truth that you are incapable of 'understanding' because you have never been a 17 year old girl.
 
And how would someone do that? They're not going to tell their clients their true identity and thus there's no way to verify age.
I’m 100 percent certain that prostitutes who look like me cannot be mistaken for anything other than over 18 years of age. Hell you could pick someone half my age and Comfortably avoid Underaged girls.

Quit going for ‘barely legal’ which mostly means too young/not legal but nobody’s looking out for this child so have at it.

Insisting on one whose looks can't be under 18 is going to take out a lot of the market as some 17 year olds will look a lot older, especially if they've been doing drugs.

What I have suggested in the past is prostitute licenses. They're verifiable (QR code that brings up the current status), photo but only a working name, not a real name. It also lists the results of their latest STD check.

Of course that would require legalizing prostitution and the sensible behavior from the legislature. I think the former is unlikely and the latter is even more questionable.

Yes, I know that screening out girls who are under 18 by looks will take out some 18 and 19 and 20 year olds. I don't find that concerning. What I do find concerning is that there is a persistent market for child prostitutes and for teenage prostitutes. Color me overly optimistic but frankly, I think that any society worth the name would see the value in at least allowing children to become adults before turning them into sex workers and would fight like hell to ensure that all children can at least reach their 18th birthday before being used for sex by adults.
 
Why would my age make my views 'completely unreasonable?'
Because you think men should not hire sex workers who look younger than you.

I think it is way past time for society to put to rest the titillation of having sex with girls who are too young to legally consent.
We agree that there should be a minimum age to engage in sex work. I think that 18 is a good age for that, as it is the age of majority.
However, that is not necessarily the same age as the legal age of consent. For example in Georgia, legal age of consent is 16. That means 16 and 17 year olds are old enough to legally consent to sex. I still think 18 is a reasonable age for sex work.

Either you are in favor of sex between consenting adults once they are actually adults--or you are not.
I do not know how often I have to write it before you acknowledge it - you probably never will.
I do think 18 is a reasonable minimum age for sex work. We disagree that consensual sex with somebody below that age is the same as "rape".

There simply is no valid excuse for an adult to have sex with a prostitute under the age of 18. None.
Her (or him for that matter) misrepresenting his or her age should be a valid defense.

It floors me that you are seeking to justify it and act as though somehow I'm incapable of 'understanding' because I'm older than you are. Bullshit.
The comment about your age was solely in reference to your quip that sex workers who look as old as you cannot be confused with teenagers'.
Also, I am not justifying people going for underage sex workers - even if I do not think that is "rape" it should be against the law. Things can be illegal without being "rape", you know.

It's much closer to the truth that you are incapable of 'understanding' because you have never been a 17 year old girl.
There are male sex workers and I have been a 17 year old guy. And if somebody at that age paid me for sex (yeah right!), I would not have been a "rape victim".
 
What I do find concerning is that there is a persistent market for child prostitutes and for teenage prostitutes.
First of all, as a matter of nomenclature: some teenage sex workers, namely 18 and 19 year olds are both teenagers and legal adults.

That said, best way to go after demand for underage sex workers is legal sex work where sex workers are licensed. That also means that vice would save resources they currently waste going after consenting adults and investigate underage and/or forced prostitution.
But to you punishing men for hiring sex workers will always take priority over protecting sex workers.

Color me overly optimistic but frankly, I think that any society worth the name would see the value in at least allowing children to become adults before turning them into sex workers
First of all, nobody should turn anybody into sex workers. Individuals should make that choice for themselves.
Second, we all agree that only adults should engage in sex work. We disagree in that you want to criminally punish consenting adults as well.

and would fight like hell to ensure that all children can at least reach their 18th birthday before being used for sex by adults.

Then join us in supporting legal sex work with licenses for sex workers and vice resources focused on stamping out underage/forced sex work.
 
Because you think men should not hire sex workers who look younger than you.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You really, really think that I'm somehow jealous of girls? Or of young women who look younger than I do?

Frankly, my dear, I had my share of that type of attention and more than my fill of it. It was creepy when I was a teen and in my 20's and 30's and ridiculous beyond. I will remind you what I've said before, with zero false modesty: On my very best day ever, I was about average looking. My wardrobe of chose is and always has been jeans and a t shirt. Sure, I've worn heels (not too high because they're uncomfortable) and skirts and dresses, etc. I can and do 'dress up' when the occasion or a job demands it. But I'm a very casual sort of person.

We agree that there should be a minimum age to engage in sex work. I think that 18 is a good age for that, as it is the age of majority.
However, that is not necessarily the same age as the legal age of consent. For example in Georgia, legal age of consent is 16. That means 16 and 17 year olds are old enough to legally consent to sex. I still think 18 is a reasonable age for sex work.

We don't disagree as far as age of consent goes. I think that it is reasonable and realistic to recognize that teens have sex with each other and also to recognize when there's an age disparity of more than a couple of years, there's also a significant disparity in terms of power in a relationship.

As far as federal law stating that 18 is the minimum age for a sex worker: I think that is consistent with having a draft age of 18 and voting age of 18. Frankly 18 is too young to be drafted or to be sent into combat. The draft age was lowered during WWII because of need--and because so many of the 21-36 year old men were rejected because they were unfit. I think that it is a profound disservice to young men that they can be forced into combat when they are only 18. The 18 year old voting rights came only because many people recognized that if one could be forced to 'die for Uncle Sam' you should be able to vote as well. Drinking ages were lowered---and more recently raised again because it has been recognized that drinking does really bad things to adolescent brains. So does war. So does prostitution.



Either you are in favor of sex between consenting adults once they are actually adults--or you are not.
I do not know how often I have to write it before you acknowledge it - you probably never will.
I do think 18 is a reasonable minimum age for sex work. We disagree that consensual sex with somebody below that age is the same as "rape".

Then I think we've had some degree of misunderstanding. You want to differentiate between violent rape, preferably by a stranger in a dark alley, what you consider 'real' rape and But she LOOKS 18 rape. Statutory rape is statutory rape. It exists in order to protect girls who could and frequently are exploited by men who do not care that they are actually too young.
There simply is no valid excuse for an adult to have sex with a prostitute under the age of 18. None.
Her (or him for that matter) misrepresenting his or her age should be a valid defense.

No, it really should not. It should not be a valid defense anymore than claiming that you didn't know that the watch you bought on the streetcorner was stolen.

I
The comment about your age was solely in reference to your quip that sex workers who look as old as you cannot be confused with teenagers'.
Also, I am not justifying people going for underage sex workers - even if I do not think that is "rape" it should be against the law. Things can be illegal without being "rape", you know.

Sex without consent is rape. Someone under the age of 18 cannot legally give consent to be a prostitute. Logically, sex with a prostitute under the age of 18 is rape.

It's much closer to the truth that you are incapable of 'understanding' because you have never been a 17 year old girl.
There are male sex workers and I have been a 17 year old guy. And if somebody at that age paid me for sex (yeah right!), I would not have been a "rape victim".

You assume that someone who might have paid you at age 17 for sex was someone that you were interested in having sex with, not doing it because you felt compelled to because of an age/power disparity or because you were that desperate for cash or had been groomed to believe that selling your body was necessary to help your boyfriend make ends meet or because you did not know how to say no to something you were assumed to want.

Adults have an absolute duty to not exploit children--which is anyone under the legal age of consent for whatever activity it is the adult intends to engage in with the person under the age of consent.
 
First of all, as a matter of nomenclature: some teenage sex workers, namely 18 and 19 year olds are both teenagers and legal adults.

That said, best way to go after demand for underage sex workers is legal sex work where sex workers are licensed. That also means that vice would save resources they currently waste going after consenting adults and investigate underage and/or forced prostitution.
But to you punishing men for hiring sex workers will always take priority over protecting sex workers.


First of all, nobody should turn anybody into sex workers. Individuals should make that choice for themselves.
Second, we all agree that only adults should engage in sex work. We disagree in that you want to criminally punish consenting adults as well.

and would fight like hell to ensure that all children can at least reach their 18th birthday before being used for sex by adults.

Then join us in supporting legal sex work with licenses for sex workers and vice resources focused on stamping out underage/forced sex work.

As I've written before, that was exactly what I used to think: legalized prostitution would make prostitutes safer and would diminish the demand for illegal prostitution--those who were coerced and/or underage.

Unfortunately, the opposite seems to be true. It's more like putting one Starbucks up on a streetcorner increases the demand for more Starbucks and for Starbucks knock offs. Horrible analogy but it's true. One legalized version of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution, including illegal prostitution.

As far as making prostitution safer: We could already do it by prosecuting assaults and other crimes against prostitutes the same way we prosecute those crimes against non-sex workers. Legalization won't magically make police or society see prostitutes differently.
 
Insisting on one whose looks can't be under 18 is going to take out a lot of the market as some 17 year olds will look a lot older, especially if they've been doing drugs.

What I have suggested in the past is prostitute licenses. They're verifiable (QR code that brings up the current status), photo but only a working name, not a real name. It also lists the results of their latest STD check.

Of course that would require legalizing prostitution and the sensible behavior from the legislature. I think the former is unlikely and the latter is even more questionable.

Yes, I know that screening out girls who are under 18 by looks will take out some 18 and 19 and 20 year olds. I don't find that concerning. What I do find concerning is that there is a persistent market for child prostitutes and for teenage prostitutes. Color me overly optimistic but frankly, I think that any society worth the name would see the value in at least allowing children to become adults before turning them into sex workers and would fight like hell to ensure that all children can at least reach their 18th birthday before being used for sex by adults.

It's going to take out a lot more--while you can guess age reasonably well it's a lot harder to set a range you can be sure of. I've always been hard to guess: I've been told by one person that I robbed the cradle, and on the same day someone else told me that I looked too young to be married. People guessing me at 2/3 of my age wasn't unusual back then (and a couple of years ago I had someone miss by even more than that)--but I also had people guessing me at 1 1/2 times my age.

How about addressing my proposal for dealing with it?
 
As I've written before, that was exactly what I used to think: legalized prostitution would make prostitutes safer and would diminish the demand for illegal prostitution--those who were coerced and/or underage.
I doubt very much that you have ever considered that. You seem way to invested in punishing men who hire sex workers for its own sake.
You are also very quick to accept very dubious claims by your fellow Prohibitionists, including conflating "trafficking" with voluntary sex work. And you persist in this even after you are repeatedly shown what they are doing.

Unfortunately, the opposite seems to be true.
I have seen no evidence that the opposite is true. At most, legal sex work does not eliminate the problem entirely, but I have seen zero evidence that it makes the problems worse. Quite the contrary.

It's more like putting one Starbucks up on a streetcorner increases the demand for more Starbucks and for Starbucks knock offs.
A. There is saturation effect. You double the number of coffee shops, you won't get people drink twice as much coffee.
B. What's wrong with increasing demand for sex work between consenting adults anyway?

Horrible analogy but it's true. One legalized version of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution, including illegal prostitution.
No, not a bad analogy. Just like with coffees shops, there will be saturation of demand.
I have seen no evidence that legalizing sex work increases demand for illegal prostitution. And even if (big if!) it does, since consenting adults are no longer persecuted by law enforcement, law enforcement can focus on people forced into sex work. Win win.

As far as making prostitution safer: We could already do it by prosecuting assaults and other crimes against prostitutes the same way we prosecute those crimes against non-sex workers.
But it is easier to do if the business is not in the shadows. Why are you invested in keeping it illegal anyway?

Legalization won't magically make police or society see prostitutes differently.
Not magically. Legalization is not a sufficient condition for destigmatization, but it damn sure is a necessary condition. And it will not happen overnight - it will take time. But that time will not start until we as a society decide that we should not persecute consenting adults.
 
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Glad I could provide some mirth.

You really, really think that I'm somehow jealous of girls? Or of young women who look younger than I do?
I have no idea who you are jealous of. I just know you wrote that men should only hire sex workers who look as old as you. Which is silly.

Frankly, my dear, I had my share of that type of attention and more than my fill of it. It was creepy when I was a teen and in my 20's and 30's and ridiculous beyond. I will remind you what I've said before, with zero false modesty: On my very best day ever, I was about average looking. My wardrobe of chose is and always has been jeans and a t shirt. Sure, I've worn heels (not too high because they're uncomfortable) and skirts and dresses, etc. I can and do 'dress up' when the occasion or a job demands it. But I'm a very casual sort of person.
You are proving my point about imbalance in the non-commercial sexual marketplace: average-looking women still get a lot of attention form men, but a man has to be exceptionally good looking or have tons of game to be noticed by women. Hell, even less than average looking women can get laid by much better looking men. Like that woman I know. Quite fat, not very attractive. Very sexually active, and always with handsome, fit-looking guys with good hair. Would not give the likes of me any attention whatsoever, at least not sexually.

That is the reason why sex work is very much a necessary profession and why it exists in some form in every human society, and even some non-human ones.

We don't disagree as far as age of consent goes. I think that it is reasonable and realistic to recognize that teens have sex with each other and also to recognize when there's an age disparity of more than a couple of years, there's also a significant disparity in terms of power in a relationship.
Actually Georgia age of consent at 16 is the general age of consent, not the "close age exception".

As far as federal law stating that 18 is the minimum age for a sex worker: I think that is consistent with having a draft age of 18 and voting age of 18. Frankly 18 is too young to be drafted or to be sent into combat.
I think there should be no draft unless the country is in a dire need, at which point 18 is a reasonable age. It should also apply equally to men and women.

The draft age was lowered during WWII because of need--and because so many of the 21-36 year old men were rejected because they were unfit.
There were also many boys of under 17 (17 was minimum) enlisting under false pretenses. And while not great, I do not think the defrauded enlistment officers should be brought up on charges of kidnapping and such. Which is the equivalent of you wanting to bring men who unknowingly sleep with underage sex workers on rape charges.

I think that it is a profound disservice to young men that they can be forced into combat when they are only 18. The 18 year old voting rights came only because many people recognized that if one could be forced to 'die for Uncle Sam' you should be able to vote as well. Drinking ages were lowered---and more recently raised again because it has been recognized that drinking does really bad things to adolescent brains. So does war. So does prostitution.
No, the drinking age was raised because of pressure by the "Helen Lovejoys" of the appropriately named MADD and it had nothing to do with brains but with drunk driving. It is idiotic to prohibit legal adults from drinking alcohol and is just another example of US society infantilizing young people. That is pretty uniquely American thing too. European young adults are not suffering an epidemic of brain damage just because they are allowed to drink.
So do you want to raise age of sex work to 21 as well? Or even higher? And do you still want to pretend hiring a 20 year old sex worker is "rape"?


Then I think we've had some degree of misunderstanding. You want to differentiate between violent rape, preferably by a stranger in a dark alley, what you consider 'real' rape and But she LOOKS 18 rape. Statutory rape is statutory rape. It exists in order to protect girls who could and frequently are exploited by men who do not care that they are actually too young.
Yes, the whole idea of "statutory rape" is highly problematic, and something very unique to puritan US. Other countries have laws mandating a minimum age for sex (usually around 16) but they tend not to conflate it with "rape".
But what you are saying here is even more problematic. You can have an age of consent of 16, meaning that the law recognizes that a 16 year old is old enough to consent. That means that consensual sex with that person is not even "statutory rape" even if money is exchanged. We can acknowledge that even as we agree that a person should be 18 before they should engage in sex work.
Something can be prohibited without a legal fiction that a young person cannot consent to that act. We can set minimum drinking or minimum driving ages without having to pretend that a person under that age cannot consent to that activity.


No, it really should not. It should not be a valid defense anymore than claiming that you didn't know that the watch you bought on the streetcorner was stolen.
Not comparable at all, as legitimate watches are not usually bought on streetcorners.
But here we go to legality of sex trade. If watches were made illegal by some parallel universe version of Toni who hates watches rather than sex work, customers would have to buy watches from street corners and they would not be able to differentiate stolen from legitimate wares.
Same with sex work - legalize it and it becomes much easier to tell legitimate sex workers from those who are underage or may be coerced.

Sex without consent is rape. Someone under the age of 18 cannot legally give consent to be a prostitute. Logically, sex with a prostitute under the age of 18 is rape.
There is nothing logical about this.
A 17 year old should be held responsible or his or her actions. Instead you want to punish people who did nothing wrong.

You assume that someone who might have paid you at age 17 for sex was someone that you were interested in having sex with, not doing it because you felt compelled to because of an age/power disparity or because you were that desperate for cash or had been groomed to believe that selling your body was necessary to help your boyfriend make ends meet or because you did not know how to say no to something you were assumed to want.

I assume nothing of the sort. I merely recognize that a 17 year old is very different than a 12 year old. If a 16 year old can legally consent to sex, then it cannot be rape to consensually sleep with them.

Adults have an absolute duty to not exploit children--which is anyone under the legal age of consent for whatever activity it is the adult intends to engage in with the person under the age of consent.

Adults are not omniscient. If a minor (different than a "child"!) is misrepresenting his or her age, how is the other person supposed to know that?
In the end, 17 year olds are not small children and have agency. That should include responsibility for their own actions.
 
I doubt very much that you have ever considered that. You seem way to invested in punishing men who hire sex workers for its own sake.
You are also very quick to accept very dubious claims by your fellow Prohibitionists, including conflating "trafficking" with voluntary sex work. And you persist in this even after you are repeatedly shown what they are doing.

This whole script you are playing about me being invested in punishing men is really something that you need to deal with. It has nothing at all to do with me or what I believe. Here's the thing: I do tend to give a bigger benefit of the doubt to people who are victimized over those who victimize them. Surely we can both agree that at least some prostitutes are victimized and are not voluntarily working as sex workers.

We all have our biases. You have yours and I have mine.


I have seen no evidence that the opposite is true. At most, legal sex work does not eliminate the problem entirely, but I have seen zero evidence that it makes the problems worse. Quite the contrary.


It's more like putting one Starbucks up on a streetcorner increases the demand for more Starbucks and for Starbucks knock offs.
A. There is saturation effect. You double the number of coffee shops, you won't get people drink twice as much coffee.
B. What's wrong with increasing demand for sex work between consenting adults anyway?

Why are there ANY unwilling sex workers?
Because the demand outstrips the supply. Increasing demand does not increase supply.

Horrible analogy but it's true. One legalized version of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution, including illegal prostitution.
No, not a bad analogy. Just like with coffees shops, there will be saturation of demand.

Again, there exist a not insignificant number of sex workers who are unwilling to be sex workers but who are being compelled. The only reason for this is because there is money to be made--and because there are not enough willing sex workers.

I have seen no evidence that legalizing sex work increases demand for illegal prostitution. And even if (big if!) it does, since consenting adults are no longer persecuted by law enforcement, law enforcement can focus on people forced into sex work. Win win.

I have.

As far as making prostitution safer: We could already do it by prosecuting assaults and other crimes against prostitutes the same way we prosecute those crimes against non-sex workers.
But it is easier to do if the business is not in the shadows. Why are you invested in keeping it illegal anyway?

Answered repeatedly already.

Legalization won't magically make police or society see prostitutes differently.
Not magically. Legalization is not a sufficient condition for destigmatization, but it damn sure is a necessary condition. And it will not happen overnight - it will take time. But that time will not start until we as a society decide that we should not persecute consenting adults.

You sure don't have any problem with people 'mistakenly' having sex with 17 year old prostitutes. After all, they are 'willing.' So, please quit pretending that it's all about 'consenting adults.' Both the consent and the adult parts are not well adhered to in sex trade.
 
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