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A God without compelling evidence?

excreationist

excreationist

Married mouth-breather
Joined
Aug 28, 2000
Messages
2,641
Location
Australia
Basic Beliefs
Probably in a simulation
From the Godfellas episode of Futurama:

"...Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

The last sentence is also repeated when the end credits start...



God in the "Bruce Almighty" movie was a bit like that.

I believe I'm probably in a simulation and that there is an intelligent force. Though the supernatural is possible in Sims games,

"...I think all evidence of God (and the supernatural/paranormal) can also explained by coincidence, delusion, or hallucinations..."

So atheists might say that the sightings of Jesus after his death were hallucinations... perhaps people saw a truly risen Jesus but my point is that the hallucination theory is plausible, at least to many atheists.

For me, my evidence for the existence of an intelligent force can be explained away by coincidence (long story).

Here is a web page that compares all-or-nothing fundamentalism to all-or-nothing atheism to liberal theism - then adds the Bible to my theory.

https://www.lifesplayer.com/bible.php

By all-or-nothing there is an assumption that the Bible apparently infallible.... then if there are things that don't seem to be true like a global Flood the traditional Christian God is false

e.g.
https://answersingenesis.org/why-does-creation-matter/

"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

Sometimes young earth creationists jump straight to atheism due to that all-or-nothing thinking.

The same was true for me, and here is a comic about another case:
https://www.oldearth.org/tract/tract.htm

So my evidence for God has been based on personal experience - though some Christians think God was involved...

Note if we are in a simulation reality doesn't necessarily have to be consistent.... and things written about God in the Bible aren't necessarily true - those arguments for the existence or non-existence of God don't necessarily have assumptions that are accurate...

Are people familiar with my kind of slippery logic?
 
The word 'God' is hardly more comprehensible than a Rorschach blot, each believer constructing their own mental image of what they believe 'God' to be.
 
skepticalbip said:
I find this an interesting new argument. "God does not leave evidence of his works therefore the lack of evidence proves god exists and is active in our world."

Damn imaginative word play.
Click to expand...

That brings up the larger question of how a theistic person differentiates between what is real and what is imaginary. Maybe the truth is simply that the external environment ultimately makes that decision long term.
 
There must be some OCD born-agains who go through tortures of doubt about their God transmissions actually coming from (Dana Carvey voice): SATANNNNN!
 
skepticalbip said:
I find this an interesting new argument. "God does not leave evidence of his works therefore the lack of evidence proves god exists and is active in our world."

Damn imaginative word play.
Click to expand...
Thoughts involving logical(?) arguments:

1. If the Christian fundamentalist God is real then the Bible should be 100% infallible.


2. Bible passages talk about supernatural events like miracles and demon possession.


3. There doesn't seem to be any proof that the supernatural exists.


4. If those supernatural events didn't happen then the Bible isn't infallible.


5. Therefore the Christian fundamentalist God doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

1. Perhaps an intelligent force doesn't want to make his existence too obvious.


2. So any messages from God can't be miraculous
and can be explained by skeptics as being coincidence, hallucination, or delusion.


3. There doesn't seem to be any proof that the supernatural exists.


4. That is compatible with the proposed intelligent force - especially if a simulation is involved.
Click to expand...
 
ideologyhunter said:
There must be some OCD born-agains who go through tortures of doubt about their God transmissions actually coming from (Dana Carvey voice): SATANNNNN!
Click to expand...
2 Corinthians 11:14
"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light."

So if an angel appeared to a Christian it is possible that it could be Satan to try and deceive them....

1 John 4
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God"

Humans are able to lie about that... though apparently demons can't.... but maybe Satan can pretend he acknowledges Jesus....

The possibility that any communication from a intelligent force could be malicious or deceptive (or a mindless random accident) has caused me to not trust my supernatural hunches too strongly.
 
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The Christian idea of Satan, the Devil in rebellion against God is completely at odds with Judaism and the old testament/Torah.
 
skepticalbip said:
I find this an interesting new argument. "God does not leave evidence of his works therefore the lack of evidence proves god exists and is active in our world."

Damn imaginative word play.
Click to expand...
Self-Mutation already tried that. "The total lack of evidence of God's hand is EXACTLY what we would expect to see if the God of the Bible were acting in this world." Because God didn't do shit any more because He apparently knew He would not get credit for doing so.

Of course, Self-Mutation also insisted that calling it a 'cancer in remission' rather than 'miracle' was just doctors unwilling to acknowledge blatant evidence of God's hand in human affairs.
And also, SM insisted that God stopped intervening after Jesus' resurrection because the age of miracles ended then.
And also, SM insisted that God had saved him when his car broke down in a bad part of town.

So, you know, one round of 'dialing for theology' is as good, or useless, as any other round, contradictions are the atheists' problem.
 
excreationist said:
Thoughts involving logical(?) arguments:



1. Perhaps an intelligent force doesn't want to make his existence too obvious.


2. So any messages from God can't be miraculous
and can be explained by skeptics as being coincidence, hallucination, or delusion.


3. There doesn't seem to be any proof that the supernatural exists.


4. That is compatible with the proposed intelligent force - especially if a simulation is involved.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

OK - but what good does it do you, or anyone, to not just treat the whole 'god' thing as purely fictional?

If a god is trying to hide, and failing, he's not much of a god.

If a god is trying to hide (and failing because he's not much of a god), how does it make sense to point that out? Surely if you think you have evidence of such a god, and you care what he thinks of you, you should act as though he didn't exist?
 
excreationist said:
From the Godfellas episode of Futurama:

"...Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

The last sentence is also repeated when the end credits start...

[vid eo=youtub eObbVO3A3BvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbVO3A3BvA[/video]

God in the "Bruce Almighty" movie was a bit like that.

I believe I'm probably in a simulation and that there is an intelligent force. Though the supernatural is possible in Sims games,

"...I think all evidence of God (and the supernatural/paranormal) can also explained by coincidence, delusion, or hallucinations..."

So atheists might say that the sightings of Jesus after his death were hallucinations... perhaps people saw a truly risen Jesus but my point is that the hallucination theory is plausible, at least to many atheists.

For me, my evidence for the existence of an intelligent force can be explained away by coincidence (long story).

Here is a web page that compares all-or-nothing fundamentalism to all-or-nothing atheism to liberal theism - then adds the Bible to my theory.

https://www.lifesplayer.com/bible.php

By all-or-nothing there is an assumption that the Bible apparently infallible.... then if there are things that don't seem to be true like a global Flood the traditional Christian God is false

e.g.
https://answersingenesis.org/why-does-creation-matter/

"Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel."

Sometimes young earth creationists jump straight to atheism due to that all-or-nothing thinking.

The same was true for me, and here is a comic about another case:
https://www.oldearth.org/tract/tract.htm

So my evidence for God has been based on personal experience - though some Christians think God was involved...

Note if we are in a simulation reality doesn't necessarily have to be consistent.... and things written about God in the Bible aren't necessarily true - those arguments for the existence or non-existence of God don't necessarily have assumptions that are accurate...

Are people familiar with my kind of slippery logic?
Click to expand...

Are people familiar with your kind of slippery logic?

Yes. Its called metaphysics.
Empiricists and the scientism crowd dont like it because its a defeater of logical positivism.
#Locke #Bacon #Hume
 
The word scientism is a Christian creation. It refers to scince that runs counter to Christian beliefs.

Empiricism is philosophy about the nature of knowledge related to experience.

Empirical science simply means based on experiment and measurement.

I never knew a scantiest or engineer who had philosophy on the book shelf to refer to for guidance.

The question referring to Empiricism as I understand it relating to god would be can one have knowledge of god without observable quantifiable evidence. Can god be known?

Christians obviously say yes. That it is obvious. Reality to them is empirical evidence.

Scince as is any creative process ois just that, a process. The process operates regrless of philosophical or religious views.

Both Newton and Galileo were believers. That probably saved Galileo's life ending up under house confinement.

Looking back through the history of we tern science, the vast majority of the contributors leading up to the late 19th century evolution of modern science were Christian. As the Arab culture declined the scince torch was bassed from the Persiands and Arabs to Europe. A number of math and science texts. Mulim scince.

The idea that modern sconce is ashiest and opposed to religion, scientism, is simply ignorance of history. The process has always been the same. The problem for Christians is our principle of questioning everything, including religion. With the end of the Vatican control of thought and education in the 19th century and the rise of secular education, science goes where it will regardless of what it means to philosophy or religion.

It is not the role of scientists to reconcile theory with religion or philosophy.
 
@bilby:

My ideas are based on the Godfellas episode of Futurama...

Bender: "...I was God once... I tried helping them, I tried not helping them but in the end I couldn't do them any good"

God: "....Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket.... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"

That doesn't mean that no-one has faith in God...

Also from "Bruce Almighty":
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0315327/characters/nm0000151

God: "Parting your soup is not a miracle, Bruce. It's a magic trick. A single mom who's working two jobs and still finds time to take her kid to soccer practice, that's a miracle. A teenager who says "no" to drugs and "yes" to an education, that's a miracle. People want me to do everything for them. But what they don't realize is *they* have the power. You want to see a miracle, son? Be the miracle."

Note that quote is missing from this script! (but I had memorised it so that I could do a web search for it)
https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Bruce-Almighty.html

Bruce: "....I gave everyone what they wanted...."

God: "Since when does anyone have a clue about what they want?"

In Bruce Almighty, God doesn't make his presence obvious.... except when the audience was a single person (Bruce). (and that could involve hallucinations and delusion)

bilby said:
OK - but what good does it do you, or anyone, to not just treat the whole 'god' thing as purely fictional?...
Click to expand...
Having a hunch that there is a considerate intelligent force gives me hope and I stopped being depressed or suicidal like I was at times as an atheist.

If a god is trying to hide, and failing, he's not much of a god.
Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism
Gnostics also believe in a supreme hidden God... I think that means that God is generally hidden - but not always hidden.

Also they "emphasised personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over orthodox teachings, traditions, and the authority of the church."

If a god is trying to hide (and failing because he's not much of a god), how does it make sense to point that out?
Click to expand...
I think God is just trying not to be obvious... so it is possible for atheists to exist no matter how hard theists might try to prove God's existence....

Surely if you think you have evidence of such a god, and you care what he thinks of you, you should act as though he didn't exist?
Click to expand...
I think if people have faith in God, God can draw near to them... but some faith is involved rather than his presence being undeniably obvious....
 
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