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A Reason the Middle East Is Chronically Unstable: Brideprice

Brideprice -> instability etc

Dunno how true it is, but it sounds plausible. I suspect neoliberalism is doing something similar in the West where people of reproductive age increasingly cannot afford adequate housing and don't have secure enough incomes. Hence the political instability and polarisation we're starting to see.
 
Brideprice -> instability etc

Dunno how true it is, but it sounds plausible. I suspect neoliberalism is doing something similar in the West where people of reproductive age increasingly cannot afford adequate housing and don't have secure enough incomes. Hence the political instability and polarisation we're starting to see.

What is happening in the US is the price to just begin to make a living has increased dramatically since we adopted trickle down economics as the permanent policy.

I know couples where the entire salary of one person is being used to pay off the student loans of both.

People are now coming out of college with $100,000 and more in debt. If you go to grad school it can easily be $150,000 to $200,000 at a State University.

This is definitely a cause of great instability. A growing bubble.

A lot of the civilized world is moving towards free college education.

It does not take a genius to understand that is the best way to have the most educated people and greater economic stability.
 
The point is that it's a continuous chain of events, you don't get to break it at the point the Muslims were losing and blame everything on what happened to the Muslims. The Muslims beat upon everyone else and then cry foul when some of it comes back on them.

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There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Much of that map predates the Industrial Revolution.

The point is he's inconsistent with it all, Loren. He's willing to use past events to justify current suspicions but it only applies one way.

And you're not being one way about it??

No! I rebutted him by pointing out an inconsistency in his position. He claims that Muslims have a predisposition for violence based on their history. Clearly however, this would not apply to the Christian west if you asked him. Even then, from the perspective he's coming at this is utterly insane, because 2000 years ago conquest was the name of the game. Almost everything in Eurasia was an empire or a kingdom of some kind, and they all wanted more. So why the would the first Muslims be any different?
 
I'm talking about that map of Islamic invasions of Europe and Africa.

You mean maps long outdated?

What do you not understand about the fact that modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution? The West achieves unprecedented dominance and proceeds to colonize the ME.

I am talking about currently existing maps.

Drawn by the Western victors after WWI.

Not by the inhabitants.

I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Many of the inhabitants want to draw their own map.

What you don't understand is that what came before still matters. You can't just dismiss it because things weren't going in the direction to support your position.

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You just flunked Middle East Politics 101.

We aren't supporting the fundamentalist dictatorships, but the moderate ones. The thing is if they fall they are likely to be replaced with the fundamentalist ones. Witness Egypt (where the military stepped in and brought them back to being moderates), Iran (the Shah was a moderate), Iraq (Saddam was a moderate) and Libya (where the fundies are getting a lot of power in parts of it).

Blah, blah, blah.

Rationalization, rationalization, rationalization.

Making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice.

You didn't address the issue. Where has the overthrow of one of those moderate dictatorships had a good outcome??

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No! I rebutted him by pointing out an inconsistency in his position. He claims that Muslims have a predisposition for violence based on their history. Clearly however, this would not apply to the Christian west if you asked him. Even then, from the perspective he's coming at this is utterly insane, because 2000 years ago conquest was the name of the game. Almost everything in Eurasia was an empire or a kingdom of some kind, and they all wanted more. So why the would the first Muslims be any different?

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.
 
Brideprice -> instability etc

Dunno how true it is, but it sounds plausible. I suspect neoliberalism is doing something similar in the West where people of reproductive age increasingly cannot afford adequate housing and don't have secure enough incomes. Hence the political instability and polarisation we're starting to see.

Yes. I agree, it sounds plausible, but I don't know if it is more than a just-so-story.

But as long as we are indulging in just-so stories, I think you are right about the West. In the USA, in particular, my contemporaries are all at an age where everyone should have started families by now, but many, many haven't, and it is due to financial insecurity. Even if people my age who happen to be relatively well employed are completely saddled with student debt. Coupled with rising rents, this makes people who are working what should be pretty decent jobs barely able to afford their monthly expenses. And it isn't always a case of living beyond their means. The problem is if you want a good job, you have to move where the good jobs are. But the rents in all these places are astronomical. For example, I pay $1900/month in rent for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom apartment that I share with two other people (one of them lives in essentially a cubicle that used to be the living room, she only pays 1400). Now, I am definitely over-paying, but I am a fortunate son*, so I can afford to live a little beyond my means. And very importantly, I don't have a family, and never plan to.

And I have only talked about those people who are doing relatively well. A giant portion of my contemporaries are just trying to scrape by in the "gig economy", or work in the service industry, living month-to-month, with no health insurance, and zero job security, a good portion of them still living with their parents (many of whom are similarly in dire economic straights). For these people, it is practically impossible to start a family and lead a normal human life. They can barely pay for anything, how would they ever hope to afford their children's education? Or hell, even paying for day care! And these are frequently college graduates. It's not surprise there is rising instability.


It is a worrying set of circumstances. I know me and my fellow well-to-do's are doing, er, well. And it's because we didn't have student loans, and when the economy sucked after we graduated, we simply moved back in with our parents to ride out the worst parts, maybe going to grad school (again, on our parent's dime), or working for our dad's or our dad's buddies. All of us are doing *great*. And the separation between the already wealthy and the less wealthy has widened. And when inequality increases, an people perceive that the system is rigged against them (which it is), that is when the "shit hits the fan." I guess the only saving grace in the West is that the males can still regularly have sex. A bunch of unmarried, unsexed young males with no prospects turns real... ape-ish real fast.

*I went to college and grad school with my father paying out of pocket. I graduated with zero debt. After I graduated from grad school, my rich friends offered to let me stay with them so I could move out to Silicon Valley and find a job, essentially handing me 2-months of free rent, which I would have never been able to afford in this crazy city.
 
You mean maps long outdated?

What do you not understand about the fact that modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution? The West achieves unprecedented dominance and proceeds to colonize the ME.

I am talking about currently existing maps.

Drawn by the Western victors after WWI.

Not by the inhabitants.

I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Many of the inhabitants want to draw their own map.

What you don't understand is that what came before still matters. You can't just dismiss it because things weren't going in the direction to support your position.

I agree. the fact that the people living there didn't draw their own maps matters.

It is definitely a cause of some of the troubles we have seen.

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.

Who is that?

The innocent Iraqi's the US military rounded up in the middle of the night and tortured for sport?
 
You mean maps long outdated?

What do you not understand about the fact that modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution? The West achieves unprecedented dominance and proceeds to colonize the ME.

I am talking about currently existing maps.

Drawn by the Western victors after WWI.

Not by the inhabitants.

I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Many of the inhabitants want to draw their own map.

What you don't understand is that what came before still matters. You can't just dismiss it because things weren't going in the direction to support your position.

- - - Updated - - -

You just flunked Middle East Politics 101.

We aren't supporting the fundamentalist dictatorships, but the moderate ones. The thing is if they fall they are likely to be replaced with the fundamentalist ones. Witness Egypt (where the military stepped in and brought them back to being moderates), Iran (the Shah was a moderate), Iraq (Saddam was a moderate) and Libya (where the fundies are getting a lot of power in parts of it).

Blah, blah, blah.

Rationalization, rationalization, rationalization.

Making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice.

You didn't address the issue. Where has the overthrow of one of those moderate dictatorships had a good outcome??

- - - Updated - - -

No! I rebutted him by pointing out an inconsistency in his position. He claims that Muslims have a predisposition for violence based on their history. Clearly however, this would not apply to the Christian west if you asked him. Even then, from the perspective he's coming at this is utterly insane, because 2000 years ago conquest was the name of the game. Almost everything in Eurasia was an empire or a kingdom of some kind, and they all wanted more. So why the would the first Muslims be any different?

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.

So do lots of people, what's your point?
The US imposing its sphere of influence on other nations through military action is a form of conquest.
 
What you don't understand is that what came before still matters. You can't just dismiss it because things weren't going in the direction to support your position.

I agree. the fact that the people living there didn't draw their own maps matters.

It is definitely a cause of some of the troubles we have seen.

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.

Who is that?

The innocent Iraqi's the US military rounded up in the middle of the night and tortured for sport?

You realize the basic problem in Iraq is the Sunni and Shia fighting each other?
 
I agree. the fact that the people living there didn't draw their own maps matters.

It is definitely a cause of some of the troubles we have seen.

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.

Who is that?

The innocent Iraqi's the US military rounded up in the middle of the night and tortured for sport?

You realize the basic problem in Iraq is the Sunni and Shia fighting each other?

Squabbles that should have long been settled but were not because the people did not draw their own maps or control their own political situations were exacerbated by the US invasion and stupid plan to segregate neighborhoods.

Imperialism and colonialism freezes the development of a region. Stunts it's growth.

Those who criticize the ME are like the one who wonders why the person who's legs they just broke can't walk.
 
Dunno how true it is, but it sounds plausible. I suspect neoliberalism is doing something similar in the West where people of reproductive age increasingly cannot afford adequate housing and don't have secure enough incomes. Hence the political instability and polarisation we're starting to see.

Yes. I agree, it sounds plausible, but I don't know if it is more than a just-so-story.

But as long as we are indulging in just-so stories, I think you are right about the West. In the USA, in particular, my contemporaries are all at an age where everyone should have started families by now, but many, many haven't, and it is due to financial insecurity. Even if people my age who happen to be relatively well employed are completely saddled with student debt. Coupled with rising rents, this makes people who are working what should be pretty decent jobs barely able to afford their monthly expenses. And it isn't always a case of living beyond their means. The problem is if you want a good job, you have to move where the good jobs are. But the rents in all these places are astronomical. For example, I pay $1900/month in rent for a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom apartment that I share with two other people (one of them lives in essentially a cubicle that used to be the living room, she only pays 1400). Now, I am definitely over-paying, but I am a fortunate son*, so I can afford to live a little beyond my means. And very importantly, I don't have a family, and never plan to.

And I have only talked about those people who are doing relatively well. A giant portion of my contemporaries are just trying to scrape by in the "gig economy", or work in the service industry, living month-to-month, with no health insurance, and zero job security, a good portion of them still living with their parents (many of whom are similarly in dire economic straights). For these people, it is practically impossible to start a family and lead a normal human life. They can barely pay for anything, how would they ever hope to afford their children's education? Or hell, even paying for day care! And these are frequently college graduates. It's not surprise there is rising instability.


It is a worrying set of circumstances. I know me and my fellow well-to-do's are doing, er, well. And it's because we didn't have student loans, and when the economy sucked after we graduated, we simply moved back in with our parents to ride out the worst parts, maybe going to grad school (again, on our parent's dime), or working for our dad's or our dad's buddies. All of us are doing *great*. And the separation between the already wealthy and the less wealthy has widened. And when inequality increases, an people perceive that the system is rigged against them (which it is), that is when the "shit hits the fan." I guess the only saving grace in the West is that the males can still regularly have sex. A bunch of unmarried, unsexed young males with no prospects turns real... ape-ish real fast.

*I went to college and grad school with my father paying out of pocket. I graduated with zero debt. After I graduated from grad school, my rich friends offered to let me stay with them so I could move out to Silicon Valley and find a job, essentially handing me 2-months of free rent, which I would have never been able to afford in this crazy city.

That right there is what I'm talking about. Very similar story in the UK (except we have UHC, thank gawd). Last year was the year mainstream Western political parties could no longer ignore it. The Germans now have a word for it - Trumpunbrexit.
 
I agree. the fact that the people living there didn't draw their own maps matters.

It is definitely a cause of some of the troubles we have seen.

The basic problem is that the Muslims still act like they live in the era of conquests.

Who is that?

The innocent Iraqi's the US military rounded up in the middle of the night and tortured for sport?

You realize the basic problem in Iraq is the Sunni and Shia fighting each other?

Squabbles that should have long been settled but were not because the people did not draw their own maps or control their own political situations were exacerbated by the US invasion and stupid plan to segregate neighborhoods.

Imperialism and colonialism freezes the development of a region. Stunts it's growth.

Those who criticize the ME are like the one who wonders why the person who's legs they just broke can't walk.

The Sunni-Shia war long predates western influence in the region. And it's a war of at a minimum ethnic cleansing. Apparently you support ethnic cleansing.
 
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