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A Reason the Middle East Is Chronically Unstable: Brideprice

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.


No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

The point is that it's a continuous chain of events, you don't get to break it at the point the Muslims were losing and blame everything on what happened to the Muslims. The Muslims beat upon everyone else and then cry foul when some of it comes back on them.

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There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Much of that map predates the Industrial Revolution.
 
No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

The point is that it's a continuous chain of events, you don't get to break it at the point the Muslims were losing and blame everything on what happened to the Muslims. The Muslims beat upon everyone else and then cry foul when some of it comes back on them.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Much of that map predates the Industrial Revolution.

The point is he's inconsistent with it all, Loren. He's willing to use past events to justify current suspicions but it only applies one way.
 
No duh. It's still asinine to point to thousand year old wars as some how indicative of people living today. I mean Jesus Christ, I'm pretty sure if either of us looked, we could find a post of Derec trying to minimize, make excuses for, or just metaphorically shrugging his shoulders with indifference at western imperialism into the new world and that was even more recent!

The point is that it's a continuous chain of events, you don't get to break it at the point the Muslims were losing and blame everything on what happened to the Muslims. The Muslims beat upon everyone else and then cry foul when some of it comes back on them.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Much of that map predates the Industrial Revolution.

What part?

The maps of the ME were drawn by Western powers after WWI.

Muslims have not been allowed to even draw the maps of their lands.

And Westeners cry about Islamic interference.
 
The Middle East and most of Asia are culturally different than the West. While it is fashionable to attribute instability in these areas to events long ago by Westerners, the inexorable impediment these places have in forming stable and prosperous democracies may be largely cultural.

I don't think this position is quite as fashionable as it once was.
 
Again for those with trouble comprehending.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

Strictly speaking, it hasn't even been the norm in AMERICAN history and, in the scheme of things, is a relatively recent development. It seems to me that periods of stability are always as memorable as they are brief, while periods of chaos and upheaval are forgettable and hard to classify historically which is why multiple different unstable situations all with different causes in different places at different times are collectively referred to as "the dark ages."
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

Strictly speaking, it hasn't even been the norm in AMERICAN history and, in the scheme of things, is a relatively recent development. It seems to me that periods of stability are always as memorable as they are brief, while periods of chaos and upheaval are forgettable and hard to classify historically which is why multiple different unstable situations all with different causes in different places at different times are collectively referred to as "the dark ages."

Actually, the 'dark ages' are so called because of a paucity of archaeological or historical data. The term was originally used to describe the strata found in archaeological excavations between the Roman and Medieval periods, where there was very little pottery to be found.

Roman and Medieval sites can often be dated to within a decade or two based on the potsherds that are found there. But the entire second half of the first millennium CE is almost entirely devoid of such evidence, and so was known to pottery experts as the 'dark age'; and that terminology spread to other archaeologists and to historians.

The term 'dark ages' has now fallen out of favour with archaeologists, as new archaeological techniques are detecting the previously undetectable traces of the wood and leather goods used in that era. Obviously these organic materials don't survive as well when buried, in comparison to pottery.
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

The question is: Why is the region as it is?

Why has the region not progressed in some areas?

External support of fundamentalist dictatorships that aggressively spread their fundamentalism has a lot to do with.

Britain and the US could have supported any kind of dictatorship and still have gotten their oil.

But support of a crazed fundamentalist dictatorship (Saudi Arabia) makes the surrounding area unstable.
 
Strictly speaking, it hasn't even been the norm in AMERICAN history and, in the scheme of things, is a relatively recent development. It seems to me that periods of stability are always as memorable as they are brief, while periods of chaos and upheaval are forgettable and hard to classify historically which is why multiple different unstable situations all with different causes in different places at different times are collectively referred to as "the dark ages."

Actually, the 'dark ages' are so called because of a paucity of archaeological or historical data. The term was originally used to describe the strata found in archaeological excavations between the Roman and Medieval periods, where there was very little pottery to be found.

Roman and Medieval sites can often be dated to within a decade or two based on the potsherds that are found there. But the entire second half of the first millennium CE is almost entirely devoid of such evidence, and so was known to pottery experts as the 'dark age'; and that terminology spread to other archaeologists and to historians.

The term 'dark ages' has now fallen out of favour with archaeologists, as new archaeological techniques are detecting the previously undetectable traces of the wood and leather goods used in that era. Obviously these organic materials don't survive as well when buried, in comparison to pottery.

I kind of knew that already, but it's good to have a reminder.

Still, historians continue to use the term, where it is used with a great deal of imprecision and generalization.
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

The question is: Why is the region as it is?

Why has the region not progressed in some areas?

External support of fundamentalist dictatorships that aggressively spread their fundamentalism has a lot to do with.

Britain and the US could have supported any kind of dictatorship and still have gotten their oil.

But support of a crazed fundamentalist dictatorship (Saudi Arabia) makes the surrounding area unstable.

I want to say that it's easy to put all the blame on Saudi Arabia as a simplistic "silver bullet" solution to it all, but... Yeah, it actually sort of IS all their fault. Them and the Kuwaitis and the Yemeni oligarchs and a few other extremely oil rich families (not countries, but FAMILIES) that rule their people with an iron fist and distribute their wealth to the people on whatever basis they privately decide is most fair. A handful of oil cartels are literally running the whole of the Islamic world right now, and we're sitting here wondering "Why are they so unstable?"
 
The question is: Why is the region as it is?

Why has the region not progressed in some areas?

External support of fundamentalist dictatorships that aggressively spread their fundamentalism has a lot to do with.

Britain and the US could have supported any kind of dictatorship and still have gotten their oil.

But support of a crazed fundamentalist dictatorship (Saudi Arabia) makes the surrounding area unstable.

I want to say that it's easy to put all the blame on Saudi Arabia as a simplistic "silver bullet" solution to it all, but... Yeah, it actually sort of IS all their fault. Them and the Kuwaitis and the Yemeni oligarchs and a few other extremely oil rich families (not countries, but FAMILIES) that rule their people with an iron fist and distribute their wealth to the people on whatever basis they privately decide is most fair. A handful of oil cartels are literally running the whole of the Islamic world right now, and we're sitting here wondering "Why are they so unstable?"

You combine that with the US/British debacle in Iran that directly led to another huge crazed fundamentalist nation.

Maybe not a debacle after all?

If your plan is instability.
 
Yeah, but Iran doesn't do a lot to export its particular brand of fundamentalist crazy internationally. Mainly this is because they're shi'ites and none of the sunnis will really listen to them. Except in Iraq, apparently, which has already been through the joint U.S./Saudi/Al Qaida/ISIS bukkake and couldn't possibly get any more fucked than it already is.

I mean, there's a level of instability that is so chaotic that literally anything that happens would actually make it more stable. One of the warlords slips on a banana peel and breaks his neck; one less warlord, slightly increase in stability. One of the warring factions runs out of bullets and can't kill anyone for a few days... +1 for stability.

It seems, however, that American foreign policy is about maintaining maximum possible instability. If Warlord #5 falls over and breaks his neck, they try to prop up his successor in the hopes of filling the power vacuum with a pro-American figure. If the Green Giant faction runs out of ammo, they show up with a couple million dollars worth of M16s and anti-tank missiles in exchange for assurances later on.
 
The point is that it's a continuous chain of events, you don't get to break it at the point the Muslims were losing and blame everything on what happened to the Muslims. The Muslims beat upon everyone else and then cry foul when some of it comes back on them.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no reason to look at what the Romans did--there were no Muslims there to be affected. The actions of the Muslims start with the start of the Muslim religion.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Much of that map predates the Industrial Revolution.

The point is he's inconsistent with it all, Loren. He's willing to use past events to justify current suspicions but it only applies one way.

And you're not being one way about it??
 
What part?

The maps of the ME were drawn by Western powers after WWI.

Muslims have not been allowed to even draw the maps of their lands.

And Westeners cry about Islamic interference.

I'm talking about that map of Islamic invasions of Europe and Africa.
 
Again for those with trouble comprehending.

Modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution and begins with the colonization of the ME by the West.

We are still dealing with the problems of Western colonization.

The map is the result of Western colonization. It is not the map the Muslims drew.

Part of what is happening is Muslims are trying to redraw the maps from their colonization. They do not consider them valid.

Corrected:

History begins with the point that supports your point of view and ignores causes that came before that point.

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Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

It certainly is a factor. In a bride price area the poor men have no hope of marriage or sex. That provides a very powerful incentive towards any group that offers this. Noting that there are other areas of instability is irrelevant--nobody is claiming bride price is the only cause of instability.
 
Getting back to the OP, bride price is probably one of the many reasons for instability in the Middle East. While I am no expert, I doubt that the disappearance of brideprice by itself would bring stability to the Middle East.

As an aside, I am not much of a historian, but it seems to me that "stability" has not been norm in African, Asian, European or South American history.

The question is: Why is the region as it is?

Why has the region not progressed in some areas?

External support of fundamentalist dictatorships that aggressively spread their fundamentalism has a lot to do with.

Britain and the US could have supported any kind of dictatorship and still have gotten their oil.

But support of a crazed fundamentalist dictatorship (Saudi Arabia) makes the surrounding area unstable.

You just flunked Middle East Politics 101.

We aren't supporting the fundamentalist dictatorships, but the moderate ones. The thing is if they fall they are likely to be replaced with the fundamentalist ones. Witness Egypt (where the military stepped in and brought them back to being moderates), Iran (the Shah was a moderate), Iraq (Saddam was a moderate) and Libya (where the fundies are getting a lot of power in parts of it).
 
Yeah, but Iran doesn't do a lot to export its particular brand of fundamentalist crazy internationally. Mainly this is because they're shi'ites and none of the sunnis will really listen to them. Except in Iraq, apparently, which has already been through the joint U.S./Saudi/Al Qaida/ISIS bukkake and couldn't possibly get any more fucked than it already is.

While the Sunnis won't listen to them that doesn't mean they can't stir up a lot of trouble with the Shi'ites. Witness Syria. Witness Yemen. (Yeah, it's Saudi Arabia attacking Yemen at present--that's because Iranian-backed Shi'ites took over part of the country.)
 
What part?

The maps of the ME were drawn by Western powers after WWI.

Muslims have not been allowed to even draw the maps of their lands.

And Westeners cry about Islamic interference.

I'm talking about that map of Islamic invasions of Europe and Africa.

You mean maps long outdated?

What do you not understand about the fact that modern history begins with the Industrial Revolution? The West achieves unprecedented dominance and proceeds to colonize the ME.

I am talking about currently existing maps.

Drawn by the Western victors after WWI.

Not by the inhabitants.

I'm going to let you in on a secret.

Many of the inhabitants want to draw their own map.
 
The question is: Why is the region as it is?

Why has the region not progressed in some areas?

External support of fundamentalist dictatorships that aggressively spread their fundamentalism has a lot to do with.

Britain and the US could have supported any kind of dictatorship and still have gotten their oil.

But support of a crazed fundamentalist dictatorship (Saudi Arabia) makes the surrounding area unstable.

You just flunked Middle East Politics 101.

We aren't supporting the fundamentalist dictatorships, but the moderate ones. The thing is if they fall they are likely to be replaced with the fundamentalist ones. Witness Egypt (where the military stepped in and brought them back to being moderates), Iran (the Shah was a moderate), Iraq (Saddam was a moderate) and Libya (where the fundies are getting a lot of power in parts of it).

Blah, blah, blah.

Rationalization, rationalization, rationalization.

Making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice, making excuses for injustice.
 
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