A Shiite imam makes a criminal complaint against a teacher because she wanted to shake his hand

[Derec]

This is stuff you use to fuel your xenophobic world view? Really?

It's not xenophobia. My view of this guy is based on what he says and does, and not his ethnic origin per se.

The problem, however, is that this attitude is very common among Muslims, and indiscriminately inviting millions of Muslims to come makes it inevitable that many people like this guy (who refuse to shake hands with women) will come too.

Immigration should not be ended, but only those who accept secular European values should be allowed to immigrate.

Also, I read the story in the original German (I already apologized that I could not find the story in English). The Google translation lässt zu wünschen übrig (leaves [a lot] to be desired).

 

[Derec]

How does that quote go again, I forget? Isn't something to the effect of "Those who forget about history, don't have to worry about that shit any more."

You are refuting your own point. The reason to be very concerned about Islam is precisely because we do not forget history. In other words, contemporary Islam rhymes with old Christianity.

 

[Jayjay]

If I understood the article correctly, the teacher adjourned the meeting with the Imam because he refused to shake hands with her. That was not warranted. Do Germans really put so much value in handshakes, that they can't even talk to a person who refuses to do it?

 

[Derec]

If I understood the article correctly, the teacher adjourned the meeting with the Imam because he refused to shake hands with her. That was not warranted. Do Germans really put so much value in handshakes, that they can't even talk to a person who refuses to do it?

Pretty much. It's similar to the Swiss school case which got much more press. The school initially sided with the Muslim students exempting them but then higher ups came to their senses and overruled them.

And not shaking somebody's hand is a serious sign of disrespect and besides, it should be the immigrants who conform to laws and customs of their host country, not the other way around.
Finally, this is a private school and thus probably has more leeway than a public school would have.

 

[Jayjay]

If I understood the article correctly, the teacher adjourned the meeting with the Imam because he refused to shake hands with her. That was not warranted. Do Germans really put so much value in handshakes, that they can't even talk to a person who refuses to do it?

Pretty much. It's similar to the Swiss school case which got much more press. The school initially sided with the Muslim students exempting them but then higher ups came to their senses and overruled them.

And not shaking somebody's hand is a serious sign of disrespect and besides, it should be the immigrants who conform to laws and customs of their host country, not the other way around.
Finally, this is a private school and thus probably has more leeway than a public school would have.

The imam showed some disrespect by refusing to shake hands, yes. But the teacher refused to do her job. I don't often take the side of asshat imams, but in this case, the teacher is the one who should have sucked it up.

 

[Derec]

The imam showed some disrespect by refusing to shake hands, yes. But the teacher refused to do her job. I don't often take the side of asshat imams, but in this case, the teacher is the one who should have sucked it up.

No. The imam's kid was already a menace (hence the meeting) and the teacher could see that the nut did not fall far from the tree. The school is better off without that family and Germany (and Europe) would be too.

 

[TSwizzle]

The imam showed some disrespect by refusing to shake hands, yes.

A bit off topic but I don't care for shaking people's hands either but for entirely different reasons from the asshat immam. I may be turning into a germaphobe, I wash my hands as soon as possible after shaking someone's hand. A fist bump is maybe acceptable.

 

[abaddon]

... the teacher refused to do her job. I don't often take the side of asshat imams, but in this case, the teacher is the one who should have sucked it up.

"Sucked it up". Why on earth should anyone ever have to "suck it up" regarding anything at all? If there is a “must do you job no matter what” rule out there in the world, it’s as stupid as any other dogma that requires an individual to abase him or herself to another person. All exchanges between all persons (outside of prisons and ... maybe... the military) should be exchanges between perfect equals, with no "sucking it up".

 

[Jayjay]

... the teacher refused to do her job. I don't often take the side of asshat imams, but in this case, the teacher is the one who should have sucked it up.

"Sucked it up". Why on earth should anyone ever have to "suck it up" regarding anything at all? If there is a “must do you job no matter what” rule out there in the world, it’s as stupid as any other dogma that requires an individual to abase him or herself to another person. All exchanges between all persons (outside of prisons and ... maybe... the military) should be exchanges between perfect equals, with no "sucking it up".

Refusing to talk to a person because he refuses to shake hands with you is not an exchange between perfect equals, it's two idiots clinging to stupid cultural habits. Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

 

[Derec]

Refusing to talk to a person because he refuses to shake hands with you is not an exchange between perfect equals, it's two idiots clinging to stupid cultural habits. Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

If they go back to Somalia first. Then they do not have to shake hands with members of the opposite sex either.

Why should Germans have to conform to cultural norms of Muslims that come to Germany? Same goes for things like food and dress too.

 

[abaddon]

Refusing to talk to a person because he refuses to shake hands with you is not an exchange between perfect equals, it's two idiots clinging to stupid cultural habits.

Gender equality is a stupid cultural habit? Do you think the woman was upset only about not getting her hand shaken and that's all? If so, why?

Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

Bizarre question to ask someone that just said he believes in people treating each other as equals and no one should have to "suck it up" just because someone else thinks they're filthy or in a more servile position.

 

[Jayjay]

Gender equality is a stupid cultural habit? Do you think the woman was upset only about not getting her hand shaken and that's all? If so, why?

Refusing to shake hands with women is a stupid cultural habit, I think we can agree on that. But insisting on a handshake in order to talk to someone, even when you are paid to do so, is almost as stupid.

Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

Bizarre question to ask someone that just said he believes in people treating each other as equals and no one should have to "suck it up" just because someone else thinks they're filthy or in a more servile position.

So which is it? Do you think the taxi driver has a right to refuse to service a blind person because of his dog, or should the taxi driver "suck it up"?

 

[JonA]

Refusing to shake hands with women is a stupid cultural habit, I think we can agree on that. But insisting on a handshake in order to talk to someone, even when you are paid to do so, is almost as stupid.

Was she just "insisting on a handshake" or was she maybe insisting that she not be treated like a second class citizen just because she has a fucking vagina?

Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

Bizarre question to ask someone that just said he believes in people treating each other as equals and no one should have to "suck it up" just because someone else thinks they're filthy or in a more servile position.

So which is it? Do you think the taxi driver has a right to refuse to service a blind person because of his dog, or should the taxi driver "suck it up"?

You are assuming that all behaviors are morally equal.

They are not.

 

[Jayjay]

Was she just "insisting on a handshake" or was she maybe insisting that she not be treated like a second class citizen just because she has a fucking vagina?

Not based on on story.

Do you also think that muslim cab drivers have a right to leave blind people with guide dogs in the rain because they think dogs are filthy animals?

Bizarre question to ask someone that just said he believes in people treating each other as equals and no one should have to "suck it up" just because someone else thinks they're filthy or in a more servile position.

So which is it? Do you think the taxi driver has a right to refuse to service a blind person because of his dog, or should the taxi driver "suck it up"?

You are assuming that all behaviors are morally equal.

They are not.

Refusing to talk to a person because he doesn't do your magic hand signal, is almost as moronic as refusing to service a person because he has a dog. By all means, in their private lives they can have mroe leeway to uphold their ideals. But in a professional capacity the teacher is expected to deal with even disrespectful clients sometimes, because she doesn't only reprsent herself, she represents the school.

 

[Bomb#20]

Nobody's trying to import millions of 16th-century Catholics?

They were certainly trying to export it everywhere in the 16th century.

So, since that was a very bad idea then and had disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of that migration, it's a very bad idea now and will have disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of this migration? How does that quote go again? Isn't it something to the effect of "Those who forget about history..."?

Engage your brain, please.

My point is that there is nothing special about Islam in this regard, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about.

Islam is not currently controlling the political systems of the EU, and will not do so any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from right wing fascists.

Some people can foresee further than others. Be that as it may, there is nothing special about Islam or Catholicism in this regard. As you say, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about. Self Congratulatory Reality Avoidance is likewise not just a religion but a competing form of government; and that religion currently is controlling the political systems of the EU.

 

[KeepTalking]

Engage your brain, please.

My point is that there is nothing special about Islam in this regard, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about.

Who cares whether Islam is special or not?

Anyone who advocates treating Islam as something special, whether they be Islamic, or anti-Islamic.

We're concerned about real people living today and not long dead people we couldn't help if we wanted to. As far as religions go, the one most threatening to real people living today is Islam.

Perhaps in your neck of the woods. In my part of the American Midwest, I have more to fear from liberal-and-atheist-hating-gun-toting Republican Christians than Muslims.

When you respond with the childish "but Christianity did it first" you are not furthering the discussion but only displaying your ignorance of the topic and lack of legitimate concern for actual human beings.

Well, it's a good thing I did not respond with something so childish, isn't it? I merely asked a leading question about Christianity that was intended to make one realize that Islam is not unlike other religions in response to an idea that Islam is somehow special, as a religion, when it comes to seeking political power, and doing bad things when it obtains that power. I also explained the point I was attempting to make in my previous response to you, so you should be aware of that by now. I understand, however, that it can be easier to construct a strawman of your choosing to spar against rather than actually engaging the substance of my point.

We all know the history; let's improve the present.

That sounds good to me, but we should make sure we understand the full history. That includes the historical example of immigrants becoming more moderate, and less religious after integrating into western society, especially after a generation or two.

 

[KeepTalking]

How does that quote go again, I forget? Isn't something to the effect of "Those who forget about history, don't have to worry about that shit any more."

You are refuting your own point. The reason to be very concerned about Islam is precisely because we do not forget history. In other words, contemporary Islam rhymes with old Christianity.

No, I am not. You were the one who initially suggested that the history of religion and politics was something we should ignore. Now you just want to cherry pick which history you learn from, and which history you ignore. Christianity moderated, so will Islam. Immigrants integrated into enlightened and civilized nations tend to become more moderate and less religious. This indicates that to encourage Islam to moderate, one should actually support their immigration and integration into Europe (and other enlightened and civilized parts of the world), rather than turning them away simply because of their religion, or treating them badly after they have immigrated.

 

[KeepTalking]

They were certainly trying to export it everywhere in the 16th century.

So, since that was a very bad idea then and had disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of that migration, it's a very bad idea now and will have disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of this migration? How does that quote go again? Isn't it something to the effect of "Those who forget about history..."?

The Crusaders, and builders of Christian Empires were not immigrating, they were invading militarily, subjugating the existing population, and spreading their religion by the sword. We should certainly discourage that from Islamic nations, however, as I noted in my previous posts, immigration has an entirely different history.

Engage your brain, please.

My point is that there is nothing special about Islam in this regard, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about.

Islam is not currently controlling the political systems of the EU, and will not do so any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from right wing fascists.

Some people can foresee further than others.

You are incorrect. No one can actually foresee the future, I was simply using a figure of speech. We can only extrapolate from existing demographic data, and that data indicates that Islam will not be a majority religion in Europe within any of our lifetimes, if ever.

Be that as it may, there is nothing special about Islam or Catholicism in this regard. As you say, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about.

Islam would need to become the dominant religion in Europe to control the political process, and as noted, that is not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Metaphor]

If I understood the article correctly, the teacher adjourned the meeting with the Imam because he refused to shake hands with her. That was not warranted. Do Germans really put so much value in handshakes, that they can't even talk to a person who refuses to do it?

Do some Muslims really put so much value in ludicrous proscriptions on gendered interactions dictated by sky-daddy that they'd make themselves a laughingstock? Apparently so.

If someone refused to shake my hand because they are an OCD germaphobe, okay. You don't have to touch anyone you don't want to.

If someone refused to shake my hand because they believe God disapproves of it based on my gender, I have to wonder how much rational conversation I can have with you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How is that different from Catholicism of just a few centuries ago?

Well for one we are a few centuries ahead and should not have to deal with this shit again just because of misguided immigration policies of EU leaders.

Yeah, all these comparisons to Christianity ignore the fact that it was that vile back before the Reformation. It's evil has been greatly watered down by now.