A Shiite imam makes a criminal complaint against a teacher because she wanted to shake his hand

[whichphilosophy]

In Europe, the UK and the USA it's not against the law to refuse to shake someone's hand.

 

[Derec]

In Europe, the UK and the USA it's not against the law to refuse to shake someone's hand.

Is it against the law for an employee of a private school to refuse to continue a meeting if a handshake is refused because of religious dogma?
He is not being charged with a crime, but he has made a criminal complaint against the teacher.

 

[Derec]

No, I am not. You were the one who initially suggested that the history of religion and politics was something we should ignore.

No I did not. History should not be ignored. But it is equally wrong to pretend that everything is happening at once and that somehow 16th century Christianity is as relevant to us as 21st century Islam.

Now you just want to cherry pick which history you learn from, and which history you ignore.

Again, nobody is cherry picking and nobody is ignoring. Except you ignoring the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism.

Christianity moderated, so will Islam.

It took Christianity a bloody long time. I sure hope Islam moderates in time, but in the meantime the West should not be importing Muslims by the millions without vetting them as to acceptance of Western cultural standards. If they cannot play well within the secular society they should not live in one. It's as simple as that.

Immigrants integrated into enlightened and civilized nations tend to become more moderate and less religious.

The operative word being "integrated". I see no evidence many (if not most) of the Muslims who have been coming to Europe in the last few decades are interested in integrating. The second and third generation is even more radical/fundamentalist than their parents!

This indicates that to encourage Islam to moderate, one should actually support their immigration and integration into Europe (and other enlightened and civilized parts of the world), rather than turning them away simply because of their religion, or treating them badly after they have immigrated.

If you support more Muslims to come to Europe all you will do is make Europe more Islamic. That is happening already. You did not see burka-ed women walking down European streets much 20 or 30 years ago.
What needs to be done is following
- limit immigration to levels Europe can actually meaningfully cope with. Mass migrations never turn out well for the host society. Taking in >1% of the population in one year is sheer madness.
- be selective with regard of who you let in. Immigrants should be compatible with Western societies. That goes doubly for imams as they can radicalize many more Muslims, especially the young. A fundamentalist imam like the guy from the OP should never have been allowed in.
- if you commit serious crimes like aggravated assault, (attempted) murder/manslaughter, rape, robbery, arson, rape (Muslims like rape ... charming) etc. you should be deported even if you claim to be a "refugee" or "asylum seeker".

This is not about a blanket ban or treating people poorly just because of their religion. It is about some common sense policies and realizing that islamization of Europe is a real danger.

All the people from these protests should have been deported a long time ago.

 

[whichphilosophy]

In Europe, the UK and the USA it's not against the law to refuse to shake someone's hand.

Is it against the law for an employee of a private school to refuse to continue a meeting if a handshake is refused because of religious dogma?
He is not being charged with a crime, but he has made a criminal complaint against the teacher.

It's not against the law to refuse a handshake but it is also not against the law to insist on one. The lawsuit if filed would possibly be dismissed as frivolous.

 

[Derec]

The Crusaders,

They get a bad rap but really they were merely trying to repel Muslim invaders into the hitherto mostly Christian 'Holy Land'. I

and builders of Christian Empires were not immigrating,

And Muslims in Europe are not really immigrating either. They are colonizing, establishing Islamist enclaves that are not really conducive to any sort of integration.

they were invading militarily, subjugating the existing population,

Since Europe is not offering any real resistance to the invasion there is no reason to do it militarily. Hell, European Navies are helping the invaders reach European shores!

and spreading their religion by the sword.

Some are doing that (almost) literally.

We should certainly discourage that from Islamic nations, however, as I noted in my previous posts, immigration has an entirely different history.

We definitely should not encourage immigration from Islamic nations. But it seems Europe prefers Muslim migration to others. It's like they have a death wish.

My point is that there is nothing special about Islam in this regard, when and where religion is allowed control of the political process, it will do so, regardless of which religion we are talking about.

But there are still differences between religions. 21st century Christianity is very different than 21st century Islam which is why you get things like honor killings among Muslims living in Europe but not (or hardly any) among Christians living in Europe.

You are incorrect. No one can actually foresee the future, I was simply using a figure of speech. We can only extrapolate from existing demographic data, and that data indicates that Islam will not be a majority religion in Europe within any of our lifetimes, if ever.

Germany alone let in a million Muslims in 2015 alone. That is more than 1% of population! If Europe continues to allow mass migration of Muslims, who also have huge birth rates, there will be more and more areas in Europe with a Muslim majority even before the continent as a whole becomes majority Muslim. It's not like it hasn't been done before. Places like Bosnia or Albania have been islamicized through Ottoman Turkey invasion into Europe. And later, Kosovo (site of many ancient Serbian Orthodox monasteries) has been islamicized through mass migration from neighboring Albania.

You are right that future is uncertain and dependent on what choices are made. But if Europe does not turn back from the suicidal policy of indiscriminate Muslim mass migration it will become an increasingly Muslim continent over time. If the leaders wake up in time and implement my three points from the other post that future can be averted.

Islam would need to become the dominant religion in Europe to control the political process, and as noted, that is not going to happen any time soon.

There are already places in UK, Germany or France where Muslims are a majority. And the mass migration is not letting up; if anything it is increasing. And not only from Syria with the civil war, there are many Iraqis, Pakistanis, Afghans and assorted Africans streaming in too by the millions, with European leaders unwilling to do anything against it. Quite the contrary, they are helping them by picking them up off African coast!

The inaction of EU with regard to the migrant crisis probably tipped the scales regarding Brexit too.

Hey, with enough Muslim fakefugees Khan might even become prime minister one day! After all, all the fakefugees in the Calais jungle want to come to the UK.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Leaving the Eu in itself will not lead to tighter controls on migration to the UK but it is whether a government which was not in favour of leaving the Eu and the majority of MPs will vote for the necessary changes before the next election. However there are genuine refugees whom the UK should assist.

 

[Jarhyn]

This situation is an interesting one, and one that lots of people seem to have a very hard time understanding. In certain areas of Europe, it is a cultural, perhaps even a linguistic token of communicating respect when a handshake is offered, and accepting a handshake is a return of that respect and acknowledgement of station.

A similar thing would be the offering of a suitably deep bow in many parts of Japan, and the return of a less deep bow by the person of higher station to accept. Of course the communication is subtly different in that the person of higher station is to submit vulnerability first by offering the handshake.

A similar cultural device exists in China surrounding the bill for a meal. The person of highest station offers to pay first, and people of lower station are expected to shout him down, progressively, until either someone doesn't chime in, or they make it to the bottom of the stack, at which point the persons if higher station can either shout them down, or let them pay. The idea is, again, everyone takes turns leaving themselves vulnerable and exposed to show respect

So, not returning a handshake is actually in this situation as insulting as saying 'fuck you' in response to a 'hello', or visibly and pointedly ignoring someone whenever it is their turn to speak. And everyone in the countries where this is a cultural staple know that this is the case.

So, it might be better to see the situation as "Christian parent brings charges against biology teacher for kicking him out after telling teacher to eat a bag of dicks"

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Isn't hand shaking a former way of letting the other person know you are unarmed?

 

[Bomb#20]

So, since that was a very bad idea then and had disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of that migration, it's a very bad idea now and will have disastrous consequences for the countries on the receiving end of this migration? How does that quote go again? Isn't it something to the effect of "Those who forget about history..."?

The Crusaders, and builders of Christian Empires were not immigrating, they were invading militarily, subjugating the existing population, and spreading their religion by the sword. We should certainly discourage that from Islamic nations, however, as I noted in my previous posts, immigration has an entirely different history.

Military invasion as a way to obtain large amounts of real estate seems to be past its sell-by date, but that's no reason to think each culture will be limited to its current territory. Albanians immigrated into Kosovo and when they became numerous enough they took over. Jews immigrated into Palestine and when they became numerous enough they took over.

Islam is not currently controlling the political systems of the EU, and will not do so any time in the foreseeable future, regardless of the wailing and gnashing of teeth from right wing fascists.

Some people can foresee further than others.

You are incorrect. No one can actually foresee the future, I was simply using a figure of speech.

Um, you know "foresee" doesn't actually mean "You're a precog from Minority Report", don't you? It means "be aware of beforehand; predict". I can foresee that we won't get much rain here until the fall; I can foresee that Bernie's fans will be even more disgusted with Hillary in 2020 than they are now; I can foresee that you'll post in this thread again with another bad argument.

We can only extrapolate from existing demographic data, and that data indicates that Islam will not be a majority religion in Europe within any of our lifetimes, if ever.

And? British India was less than 25% Muslim in 1947 and that was plenty enough to force a violent partition. And extrapolation from existing demographic data gives wildly different results depending on what model you use and what variables you assume will keep their current values. The widely quoted predictions customarily assume, in effect, that compound interest is about to be replaced by simple interest.

Islam would need to become the dominant religion in Europe to control the political process, and as noted, that is not going to happen any time soon.

No it wouldn't. "All politics is local." Islam only needs to become common enough and pushy enough to motivate non-Muslims to move away from local maxima in the religious contour map. Then large areas of Europe will be balkanized and the political process will become dominated by conflicts of interest between Muslim-dominated and non-Muslim dominated regions.

 

[arkirk]

Islam is a competing form of government, not just a religion.

Just like any other form of religion...it purports to know it all and rule all. If you think this is not true, go to Texas or Alabama and watch the fundies at work on the evil abortion doctors and secular humanists. I think there is a difference between having respect for human life (even Muslims) and being driven to obey their customs. The west is no better than these characters with their weird shit. Christianity has no better character than Islam.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Isn't hand shaking a former way of letting the other person know you are unarmed?

True, and an old custom dating back 500 BC I understand. (Perhaps it should be shaking two hands, so the other doesn't conceal a knife or something).

 

[arkirk]

Isn't hand shaking a former way of letting the other person know you are unarmed?

True, and an old custom dating back 500 BC I understand. (Perhaps it should be shaking two hands, so the other doesn't conceal a knife or something).

You might accompany that two handed hand shake with the question: "Shall we dance?"

 

[Tom Sawyer]

You can dance if you want to.

 

[Arctish]

You can leave your friends behind.

 

[whichphilosophy]

True, and an old custom dating back 500 BC I understand. (Perhaps it should be shaking two hands, so the other doesn't conceal a knife or something).

You might accompany that two handed hand shake with the question: "Shall we dance?"

Perhaps a slow waltz.

- - - Updated - - -

You can leave your friends behind.

In shaking with one hand, there's no need to.

 

[Bomb#20]

You can leave your friends behind.

In shaking with one hand, there's no need to.

What is the sound of one hand shaking?

 

[Bomb#20]

Islam is a competing form of government, not just a religion.

Just like any other form of religion...it purports to know it all and rule all. If you think this is not true, go to Texas or Alabama and watch the fundies at work on the evil abortion doctors and secular humanists. I think there is a difference between having respect for human life (even Muslims) and being driven to obey their customs. ... Christianity has no better character than Islam.

And Multicultural Nihilism has no better character than either of them. Unlike any other form of religion, it purports to know nothing; but just like any other it purports to rule all. If you think this is not true, go to Europe and watch the PC fundies at work on the evil PI politicians. I think there is a difference between having respect for human life (even Multicultural Nihilists) and being driven to obey their customs.

 

[whichphilosophy]

In shaking with one hand, there's no need to.

What is the sound of one hand shaking?

It depends what it is shaking.

 

[Warpoet]

Dear God!!! A Mooslim didn't want to shake a woman's hand and then complained to the police about it when she insisted on it!

Clearly, this signals the downfall of Western civilization and the arrival of our new Islamic overlords.

Fucking loons.