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A spectre is haunting Europe ...

I think it is you.

The Greek crisis originates on Wall Street.

It materializes when trillions in wealth by magic disappear.

To say the Greeks were unwise to not predict US bankers would destroy the economy with their greed may have some wisdom.

The Greek crisis originates from their 175% debt to GDP ratio which arose from their own spend and borrow decisions and their fraudulent financial statements to defraud the creditors into keeping the loans coming. Keep living in that fantasy world, however. Must be nice and cozy there.

Yes Greece and Italy were riding the edge with close to 100% debt to GDP ratios but the real troubles begin in 08 when US bankers caused the world economy to crash. And right now France and Spain are working at over 90% debt to GDP ratios which is close to what Greece was before US bankers got rich by increasing the suffering of millions around the world.

And what has so-called austerity, in other words preferential treatment of investors (the rich), done in Greece?

As you say it has caused the Greek debt to GDP ration to skyrocket to 175%.

Time to rethink this incredibly stupid and destructive policy.
 
The Greek crisis originates from their 175% debt to GDP ratio which arose from their own spend and borrow decisions and their fraudulent financial statements to defraud the creditors into keeping the loans coming. Keep living in that fantasy world, however. Must be nice and cozy there.

Yes Greece and Italy were riding the edge with close to 100% debt to GDP ratios but the real troubles begin in 08 when US bankers caused the world economy to crash. And right now France and Spain are working at over 90% debt to GDP ratios which is close to what Greece was before US bankers got rich by increasing the suffering of millions around the world.

And what has so-called austerity, in other words preferential treatment of investors (the rich), done in Greece?

As you say it has caused the Greek debt to GDP ration to skyrocket to 175%.

Time to rethink this incredibly stupid and destructive policy.

I think what the EU needs to rethink is keeping these kind of countries in the EU with a silly attempt to bail them out that is doomed to fail.

What the EU needs to rethink is whether another country within the EU can be expected to honor its agreements or whether the agreements are worth no more than the piece of paper they are written on.
 
Yes Greece and Italy were riding the edge with close to 100% debt to GDP ratios but the real troubles begin in 08 when US bankers caused the world economy to crash. And right now France and Spain are working at over 90% debt to GDP ratios which is close to what Greece was before US bankers got rich by increasing the suffering of millions around the world.

And what has so-called austerity, in other words preferential treatment of investors (the rich), done in Greece?

As you say it has caused the Greek debt to GDP ration to skyrocket to 175%.

Time to rethink this incredibly stupid and destructive policy.

I think what the EU needs to rethink is keeping these kind of countries in the EU with a silly attempt to bail them out that is doomed to fail.

What the EU needs to rethink is whether another country within the EU can be expected to honor its agreements or whether the agreements are worth no more than the piece of paper they are written on.

It is a shame the Greeks didn't have the US government to bail it out as it bailed out the banks and bails out States that perform badly

Consider, for example, what would be happening to Florida right now, in the aftermath of its huge housing bubble, if the state had to come up with the money for Social Security and Medicare out of its own suddenly reduced revenues. Luckily for Florida, Washington rather than Tallahassee is picking up the tab, which means that Florida is in effect receiving a bailout on a scale no European nation could dream of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/opinion/krugman-greece-as-victim.html?_r=0

This is a link to a NYT article about the Greece problem. Krugman blames the Euro.

...the origins of this disaster lie farther north, in Brussels, Frankfurt and Berlin, where officials created a deeply — perhaps fatally — flawed monetary system, then compounded the problems of that system by substituting moralizing for analysis. And the solution to the crisis, if there is one, will have to come from the same places.
 
Monetary union without fiscal union was bound to be a problem. The EU members do need to come to terms with enforcement and bailout mechanism and protocols. Both France and Germany at one time violated EU strictures on deficit/GDP ratios, but were given passes.
 
Monetary union without fiscal union was bound to be a problem. The EU members do need to come to terms with enforcement and bailout mechanism and protocols. Both France and Germany at one time violated EU strictures on deficit/GDP ratios, but were given passes.

Why do they need a common currency anyway? Why not make an "EU membership lite" status that includes everything but the shared currency, with the shared currency only for the most iron-clad economies that are able to have both a fiscal union and monetary union?
 
I think what the EU needs to rethink is keeping these kind of countries in the EU with a silly attempt to bail them out that is doomed to fail.

What the EU needs to rethink is whether another country within the EU can be expected to honor its agreements or whether the agreements are worth no more than the piece of paper they are written on.

It is a shame the Greeks didn't have the US government to bail it out as it bailed out the banks and bails out States that perform badly

Consider, for example, what would be happening to Florida right now, in the aftermath of its huge housing bubble, if the state had to come up with the money for Social Security and Medicare out of its own suddenly reduced revenues. Luckily for Florida, Washington rather than Tallahassee is picking up the tab, which means that Florida is in effect receiving a bailout on a scale no European nation could dream of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/opinion/krugman-greece-as-victim.html?_r=0

This is a link to a NYT article about the Greece problem. Krugman blames the Euro.

...the origins of this disaster lie farther north, in Brussels, Frankfurt and Berlin, where officials created a deeply — perhaps fatally — flawed monetary system, then compounded the problems of that system by substituting moralizing for analysis. And the solution to the crisis, if there is one, will have to come from the same places.

Did the US pay off some of Florida debt or participate in a Florida debt restructuring? I hadn't heard about that.
 
It is a shame the Greeks didn't have the US government to bail it out as it bailed out the banks and bails out States that perform badly

Consider, for example, what would be happening to Florida right now, in the aftermath of its huge housing bubble, if the state had to come up with the money for Social Security and Medicare out of its own suddenly reduced revenues. Luckily for Florida, Washington rather than Tallahassee is picking up the tab, which means that Florida is in effect receiving a bailout on a scale no European nation could dream of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/opinion/krugman-greece-as-victim.html?_r=0

An American State is not comparable to a member of the eurozone. For a start, how much money do Florida residents pay to the federal government for various taxes? Imagine if all that money stayed in Florida.
 
Monetary union without fiscal union was bound to be a problem. The EU members do need to come to terms with enforcement and bailout mechanism and protocols. Both France and Germany at one time violated EU strictures on deficit/GDP ratios, but were given passes.

Why do they need a common currency anyway? Why not make an "EU membership lite" status that includes everything but the shared currency, with the shared currency only for the most iron-clad economies that are able to have both a fiscal union and monetary union?
You need to ask the EU. As for iron-clad economies, Germany is about as iron-clad as one could imagine, but even they failed to meet the standards once.
 
It is a shame the Greeks didn't have the US government to bail it out as it bailed out the banks and bails out States that perform badly

Consider, for example, what would be happening to Florida right now, in the aftermath of its huge housing bubble, if the state had to come up with the money for Social Security and Medicare out of its own suddenly reduced revenues. Luckily for Florida, Washington rather than Tallahassee is picking up the tab, which means that Florida is in effect receiving a bailout on a scale no European nation could dream of.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/opinion/krugman-greece-as-victim.html?_r=0

This is a link to a NYT article about the Greece problem. Krugman blames the Euro.

...the origins of this disaster lie farther north, in Brussels, Frankfurt and Berlin, where officials created a deeply — perhaps fatally — flawed monetary system, then compounded the problems of that system by substituting moralizing for analysis. And the solution to the crisis, if there is one, will have to come from the same places.

Did the US pay off some of Florida debt or participate in a Florida debt restructuring? I hadn't heard about that.

No this is a better government solution. It is a Keynesian solution. The federal government pumps money directly to people through Social Security, and it supports the healthcare system directly.

Money has to be spent to grow the Greek economy if the rich want to squeeze it to pay off poorly chosen investments.
 
It is a shame the Greeks didn't have the US government to bail it out as it bailed out the banks and bails out States that perform badly



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/opinion/krugman-greece-as-victim.html?_r=0

An American State is not comparable to a member of the eurozone. For a start, how much money do Florida residents pay to the federal government for various taxes? Imagine if all that money stayed in Florida.

A lot of the Social Security and Medicare taxes were paid when the people lived in other states.
 
An American State is not comparable to a member of the eurozone. For a start, how much money do Florida residents pay to the federal government for various taxes? Imagine if all that money stayed in Florida.

A lot of the Social Security and Medicare taxes were paid when the people lived in other states.

Well, yeah. But the federal tax is the same regardless of your state. This is not the situation in Europe. German euros funding loans to Greece is not money coming from a shared pot, but from Germans.
 
A lot of the Social Security and Medicare taxes were paid when the people lived in other states.

Well, yeah. But the federal tax is the same regardless of your state. This is not the situation in Europe. German euros funding loans to Greece is not money coming from a shared pot, but from Germans.

My take on the point was that the situations were very different. Florida has this underlying economic stimulus which the Greeks lack.
 
I think you misunderstand.

I think it is you.

The Greek crisis originates on Wall Street.

It materializes when trillions in wealth by magic disappear.

To say the Greeks were unwise to not predict US bankers would destroy the economy with their greed may have some wisdom.

Does it ever occur to you that the US isn't the cause of everything bad in the world?
 
I think it is you.

The Greek crisis originates on Wall Street.

It materializes when trillions in wealth by magic disappear.

To say the Greeks were unwise to not predict US bankers would destroy the economy with their greed may have some wisdom.

Does it ever occur to you that the US isn't the cause of everything bad in the world?

The US wasn't directly behind the European bubble that burst as soon as the US bubble burst but Europe was just following the US example.
 
People forgot that the whole thing started with cooking books, why no one is in prison?
Is it because if they go to prison then so must Goldman Sucks people?

Steal $100 - you are a criminal going to prison, steal $100bil - you are just a successful banker.

Which books were cooked, specifically, and how were they cooked?

To apply for EU membership country must meet certain economic/financial requirements
show their books, etc. Greeks lied on their application and Goldman Sucks helped them to do that by moving money/debt around. And I have little doubt that Goldman Sucks took advantage of this inside info playing against greek bonds when shit started hitting the fan.
 
dismal said:
joedad said:
dismal said:
There's a point I'm not sure you completely grasp here. The last round of debtors was European Union countries who provided a large amount of funds to bail Greece out. They did it with the requirement Greece make progress to debt targets that Greece had already committed to when it joined the EU and are still generally required of EU members.

Is it actually your position that these countries who came to help Greece by lending it money when it had no other options deserve to be screwed now?

Is it actually your position that Greece should be able to stay in the EU while flaunting the EU's rules on debt?

No. That's not my position because you're putting yourself at one extreme and me at the other. People operate somewhere in between.

It ain't working, dis. Are you going to sail over the edge with the colors flying?

I don't detect an answer in there.

Really? Did you not even read the very first word of joedad's response? Because I detected that as an answer almost straight away.

You might need to brush up on your reading skills.
 
Furthermore, if Greece and the people didn't like the terms. Why didn't they reject them in 2010 and just exit the EU at that time?
Why did Hoover get elected in 1928 and then get royally thumped in 1932?
 
Furthermore, if Greece and the people didn't like the terms. Why didn't they reject them in 2010 and just exit the EU at that time?
Why did Hoover get elected in 1928 and then get royally thumped in 1932?

Why does that matter? We are talking about an agreement here. An agreement to which Greece said "yes" to in 2010, fully aware of the pros and cons of the agreement. They determined that the pros were greater than the cons, and said yes, we will abide by this agreement in exchange for the benefits received. Do agreements mean nothing to you? Is your word no good and should it be mistrusted? Should Greece demonstrate that it is not trustworthy and, if so, what does that say about its ability to make agreements with others in the future?
 
Do you understand the last 2 rounds of loans to Greece were bailouts provided by other EU countries?

As opposed to the EU directly. Which is what is supposed to happen under the treaty. The reason it was individual countries rather than the EU directly is because the Germans blocked the use of EU funds, because it runs contrary to their constitutional principles. So we get this awkward half-way house whereby the deals are done by individual countries on a peicemeal basis, rather than fulfilling the obligations under the treaty.

Do you understand that these loans were provided based on a commitment Greece made to get its fiscal house in order?
Which it is doing...

Do you understand that Greece's debt-to-GDP is way above allowable EU levels?
So are many countries in the EU, including Italy, Spain, and if you discount some of the accounting tricks the UK government plays with PFI schemes, the UK.

Do you understand that if Greece blows off the countries that bailed it out last time and returns its budget to massive deficits there will be no additional bail outs in the offing?

Do you understand that if Greece in unable to borrow from the people that bailed it out last time it likely won't be able to borrow the money required to fund its massive deficits?

Because these are relatively important things to understand before saying what Greece should do.

Sure, but you're only looking at half the picture. What's happening is that the Greek government is threatening the Eurozone. They're saying that another 20-30 years of austerity and zero growth is unacceptable to the voters, who have literally been rioting in the streets. So either they get better conditions from the EU than they have gotten so far, or they exit the Euro. Those are the choices.

Both have their attractions. Better terms would reflect the reality that not only is the EU bailing out Greece, they are also bailing out the Euro itself. At stake is the principle whereby Eurozone countries are part of a broader and stronger entity that supports it's members. If Greece goes, Spain would be next, as the fundamentals are not noticeably any better there, and Italy shortly after. The euro itself could collapse at that point, and certainly the idea of 'ever closer fiscial union' would be shown to be a sham. This would involve Germany accepting the idea that the EU involves moving money from richer to poorer countries, something that has always happened, but never so blatently or directly as now.

The alternative is a Greek exit from the Euro. This would seriously hamper Greece's ability to repay, and they may simply default - a normal business risk, but one which reflects more badly on the EU as the guranntor, than Greece as the borrower. A lot would depend on who took a bath and how it was structured. However, it would also allow Greece's currency to crash, focusing spending on domestic produce and making it a vastly more attractive target for the main sources of income - tourists, and shipping contracts. Savers and bondholders would take a massive hit, and Cyprus would be in serious trouble, but growth would be stronger.

Greece would probably be better off, on paper, staying in the Euro if it can. But the idea of spending the next few decades paying off the mistakes of the previous generation, purely so that bondholders don't have to write down their investments and so that the Eurozone can pretend it stands behind it's members, is entirely unacceptable to the people of Greece, and rightly so. This is precisely why we have bankrupcy and similar proceedings, so that people can't get locked into debt slavery.

So Greece has finally, as it has been threatening to do for years now, elected a government with a clear mandate to sort the situation out, one way or another. In effect, they either get better terms or declare bankruptcy. This is highly inconvenient for bondholders, and those with a vested poltiical interest in keeping the Euro afloat, but it's normal business practice throughout the western world. It's how the system is supposed to work.
 
Still I would like to know where all these money went, I have little doubt that part was simply stolen just want to know how much.
And new Greek government can in principle try to get some of these stolen money back.
 
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