A thought on why Hamas picked yet another war with Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

Even if you're right that doesn't explain why they launched the rocket barrage. The kidnapping itself didn't provoke the war.

Hamas started launching rockets after 3 weeks of Israeli military operations in the Occupied Territories, the arrest of hundreds of Palestinians, the destruction of more than 150 Palestinian homes, and an Israeli airstrike that killed 7 Hamas members. Prior to Hamas firing rockets there had been rocket fire from non-Hamas militants, but again, the rockets followed the Israeli attacks, which were themselves in response to the kidnapping. By the time the bodies of the boys were found (on Qawasmeh family property - a large extended family notorious for operating on it's own, sometimes in direct opposition to both Fatah and Hamas) approx. 500 Palestinians had been arrested, 6 had been shot dead, 2 people had died of heart attacks brought on by the raids, and the war was on.

Israel didn't attack Gaza at all until after the rocket barrage. Israel was engaged in police operations in which some people chose to shoot it out, that's not an attack.

You mean waiting until Israel had damaged or destroyed over 1,000 buildings, killed or wounded dozens of people, and arrested hundreds more who had nothing to do with the kidnapping before retaliating? I suppose that qualifies as timing things so Israel is held responsible for turning a crime investigation into a full blown war.

You realize "damaged" is things like broken doors of a forced entry?

You are postulating that 1) Hamas chose to ignite a war through kidnapping, despite the fact that kidnappings have not ignited wars in the past and 2) that Hamas did it for the money, despite the fact Hamas could not have known how much money, if any, would be pledged in foreign aid, or how much aid Israel would allow it to receive. I don't think either one is likely.

There's always a pile of rebuilding aid after one of these spats.

There was already a pile of money and aid due to arrive before the fighting broke out. Your accusation doesn't make any sense.

The pile is much bigger now.

The PLO accepted Israel before there was a Hamas. It didn't change anything. Why would Hamas accepting Israel change things now? What would change?

1) The PLO didn't change it's charter. It's just a deception for western ears.

2) The PLO has become much more moderate over the years--that's why the Islamist money has moved to groups like Hamas.

1) Yes, it did. There is some quibbling over whether the change was properly ratified, but the charter was changed and the change went through a ratification process that yielded a yes vote.

If they really mean to change the charter they should make the change clear, not the fuzzy mess we have now. Since the problem hasn't been rectified in many years it looks more like deception.

2) You didn't answer the question. What would change if Hamas recognized Israel? Why didn't it change when the PLO did it back in the 1990s?

And have you stopped beating your husband yet?

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What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Hamas gains from the war even if Israel also gets help.

Obviously the point was that Israel gains more from picking that fight. Jayjay showed that your "reasoning" is applicable to Israel's motivations as well.

Except Israel spent a lot more on the war than what he listed.

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If we're following the usual patterns for these threads, the OP will have little or no interest in the question raised, but will actually be keen on trying to establish the assumption buried in the thread's title.

If this thread follows the pattern, the OP will have no interest in Why Hamas did anything, but will simply being trying to establish that it was Hamas' action, and not Israel's.

These kinds of things have to be established by assumption, because they are simply assumptions - they don't rest on any kind of logic.

I'm pointing out *WHY* Hamas chose a war!


What I do ignore is the rationalizations presented on here for terrorism. There is no justification for terrorism. And "terrorism" isn't merely an attack on your friends.

 

[laughing dog]

What I do ignore is the rationalizations presented on here for terrorism. There is no justification for terrorism. And "terrorism" isn't merely an attack on your friends.

I think you would find wide agreement on those issues. Which is why so many of us do not understand why your posts contain condemnations for attacks on your "friends" and justifications for similar attacks on your "enemies.

 

[Jayjay]

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Hamas gains from the war even if Israel also gets help.

Obviously the point was that Israel gains more from picking that fight. Jayjay showed that your "reasoning" is applicable to Israel's motivations as well.

Except Israel spent a lot more on the war than what he listed.

Israel says the war cost $2.5 billion. The annual military aid from US to Israel is $3.1 billion, so they are well covered if they don't start these wars more often than once every year. Now you could argue that because Israel gets that money anyway, it would not be motivated by it, but if there was a long period of peace, at some point the USA would start to ask how the money is used. Also, if we look at only the $225 million emergency funding for Iron Dome, the cost of the Iron Dome during the war was less than $100 million. Plus you are ignoring the land that Israel annexed with the pretext of the war that you can't put a price tag on.

For Israel, the war was a profitable enterprise and it is hardly harmed by it, quite the contrary. Continuing the low-level war has been an incredibly advantageous business for Israel

If we're following the usual patterns for these threads, the OP will have little or no interest in the question raised, but will actually be keen on trying to establish the assumption buried in the thread's title.

If this thread follows the pattern, the OP will have no interest in Why Hamas did anything, but will simply being trying to establish that it was Hamas' action, and not Israel's.

These kinds of things have to be established by assumption, because they are simply assumptions - they don't rest on any kind of logic.

I'm pointing out *WHY* Hamas chose a war!

And I've been pointing out the same reasoning applies to Israel. Israel needs Hamas to start shit on a regular basis just as much Hamas needs Israel to bomb Gaza every other year: it keeps the money flowing and is a good pretext for rejecting the peace process.

 

[Deepak]

In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

Israel doesn't merely accept Hamas. They love Hamas. Hamas gives them excuses.

Not all that long ago, the bogeyman that threatened Israel was this outfit named the P.L.O. After decades of struggle and lots of terrorism, the organization changed. In effect, they said "oh fuck it, Israel can exist, we'll settle down and stop with the attacks, and set up a government on what little land the Israelis begrudgingly bequeath to us." The Palestinian Liberation Organization became "Fatah," and have made a not inconsiderable effort to be peaceful neighbors with the folks they were trying to kill (and who were trying to kill them).

Yet rather than help Fatah establish themselves as a legitimate representative of the Palestinians and support their efforts, Israel turned all their efforts (and weapons) on Hamas.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Hamas pulled what the P.L.O. did (recognizing Israel, renouncing terrorism, attempting to make nice) the Israeli government would find a new enemy to focus on. Israel needs Hamas. Will some of the reconstruction money wind up in Hamas' hands? Probably.


But the real money is to be made in constructing settlements, walls, and in spending the billions the US sends to Israel every year.

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Israel has shown a willingness to work with Fatah following their detente with the Israeli state. To wit, during the internal fighting after Fatah recognized Israel's right to exist they offered aid to Fatah forces in fighting Hamas. Israel would certainly prefer to deal with Fatah at the table rather than Hamas in the battlefield. At the same time, Israel should not accept rocket attacks and suicide bombings from Hamas without retort.

The Dennis Ross opinion piece published in WaPo a couple of months back has a pretty good 5 point plan on progress in the region. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...fd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Israel has shown a willingness to work with Fatah following their detente with the Israeli state. To wit, during the internal fighting after Fatah recognized Israel's right to exist they offered aid to Fatah forces in fighting Hamas. Israel would certainly prefer to deal with Fatah at the table rather than Hamas in the battlefield. At the same time, Israel should not accept rocket attacks and suicide bombings from Hamas without retort.

The Dennis Ross opinion piece published in WaPo a couple of months back has a pretty good 5 point plan on progress in the region. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...fd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

He's got a pretty good understanding of what's going on over there but his answers aren't going to work because what's happening over there is actually based on propaganda rather than reality.

 

[Togo]

I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive. Israel has shown a willingness to work with Fatah following their detente with the Israeli state. To wit, during the internal fighting after Fatah recognized Israel's right to exist they offered aid to Fatah forces in fighting Hamas. Israel would certainly prefer to deal with Fatah at the table rather than Hamas in the battlefield. At the same time, Israel should not accept rocket attacks and suicide bombings from Hamas without retort.

The Dennis Ross opinion piece published in WaPo a couple of months back has a pretty good 5 point plan on progress in the region. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...fd2b48-1d83-11e4-82f9-2cd6fa8da5c4_story.html

He's got a pretty good understanding of what's going on over there but his answers aren't going to work because what's happening over there is actually based on propaganda rather than reality.

And yet again, the problem turns out not to be reality, but rather a theory of what is going in the heads of other people.

 

[Jarhyn]

Why Hamas 'picked' another 'war' with Israel? That's easy! They have no other way to reject the assholes who steal their land, raze their cities, kill their children, close their borders, and deny them sovereignty. It's like an abusive husband beating his wife for calling a lawyer for a divorce and punishing her by locking her naked in the basement. And then defending HIM because she'd kill him if she could. He comes into the basement, gives her some slop that he's pissed in, and when she scratches him, he beats her more. What do you expect the woman in this situation to do? Now apply that same logic to Israel and Hamas.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why Hamas 'picked' another 'war' with Israel? That's easy! They have no other way to reject the assholes who steal their land, raze their cities, kill their children, close their borders, and deny them sovereignty. It's like an abusive husband beating his wife for calling a lawyer for a divorce and punishing her by locking her naked in the basement. And then defending HIM because she'd kill him if she could. He comes into the basement, gives her some slop that he's pissed in, and when she scratches him, he beats her more. What do you expect the woman in this situation to do? Now apply that same logic to Israel and Hamas.

And picking the war helped how? They got a couple thousand dead, a lot of things blown up and they accomplished nothing towards getting what they say they want. (They did, however, get a lot of internal benefits at the expense of their people, though.)

 

[arkirk]

This is what happens when a group of people take the Bible too literally and allow it to establish a nation on the basis of THAT belief. There actually is no historic basis for the establishment of Israel in the midst of a collection of Muslim countries... just a silly book full of extremely anti humanist myths. The Muslims are no "better" with their beliefs in terms of a humanistic view of the world.

I remember when I was younger seeing the movie and that theme from the movie repeating Israeli propaganda on all our AM radios...."God gave this land to me." It wasn't God. It was the U.S. that gave that land to Israel...even though it was not OURS to give. I personally regard Judaism and Islam as TWO OF THE KOOKIEST MOST NARCISSISTIC WORLD VIEWS POSSIBLE. Lives devoted to either of those religions or Christianity as lives that are contrary to not just reality, but the interests of the human race. All of this religious righteousness needs to go to the back burner and even that needs to be turned off.

Neither Hamas nor Israel is an actual entity with monolithic policies. These are populations under the tyranny of a religiously licensed regimen of aggression. We cannot ask either side to give up their religion. It is our place to demand of them however they stop murdering each other and tearing up the land both sides will have to depend on for sustenance. That's the real issue here...people murdering each other and saying "God told me to be doing this."

We need to be consistent in our assessment of the human suffering this inane situation has created and now rigidly maintains. It is wrong however to pile all the blame on one side. Both sides are being guided in their actions by non-existing entities. We need to just look at the human conditions and rectify those. I agree with Banke Moon on this. Let us rebuild the infrastructure of Gaza and make it untouchable by bombs and thugs from any quarter.

In reality, Hamas is just a collection of resisters who are certainly tired of resisting against such long odds. I am certain they could accept a peace, but Israel, under the guidance of Netanyahu is still hoping to find a way of ridding their land, the land he says God gave to them, of Arabs and more importantly, Islamic influence. He will never have his way on this, so the conflict just grinds on...and he seems to think it is his duty to just keep grinding.

 

[metacristi]

There are two solutions to this problem.

Solution 1: Push all the Gazans into the Mediterranean Sea.

Solution 2: Some other solution that does not involve killing everyone who lives in Gaza.

Solution 1 will definitely end the fighting. Solution 1 will require a little more creativity.

Yet Solution 1 leads also to a Grand Jihad against the Jews. Finally the same never-ending fighting due to muslims.

The only way in which Solution 2 or solution 3 (no one dies) or solution 4 or whatever can be invented can lead to something durable is of course to introduce the islamic theological factor in the 'equation' and stop claiming that it has no importance. I'm afraid there will be no final solution to this problem until islam finally engulf the principles of Enlightenment (contrary to those who see secularism everywhere in the muslim world the sad reality is that in even the most liberal muslim countries the level of secularism is way below what is needed to create modern societies. the Islamic worldview has barely been penetrated by Enlightenment). Open criticism of islam may be of more help on long term than sugar coating it.

 

[Jayjay]

There are two solutions to this problem.

Solution 1: Push all the Gazans into the Mediterranean Sea.

Solution 2: Some other solution that does not involve killing everyone who lives in Gaza.

Solution 1 will definitely end the fighting. Solution 1 will require a little more creativity.

Yet Solution 1 leads also to a Grand Jihad against the Jews. Finally the same never-ending fighting due to muslims.

Which would not be much different from status quo (except for Gaza obviously).