A thought on why Hamas picked yet another war with Israel

[Loren Pechtel]

It's looking like they're going to get ~$4 billion for rebuilding.

How much of that will really be used for rebuilding vs going to Hamas???

 

[Bronzeage]

Who put Hamas in charge of everything over there?

 

[untermensche]

How much of the money that was meant for the rebuilding of Iraq was actually used for the rebuilding and how much simply made some Americans and others very rich?

If the US can't oversee rebuilding how is a destroyed and very weak area like Gaza supposed to do it with perfection?

Basically this objection amounts to; Unless the Palestinians do everything with perfection they are unworthy of freedom.

Of course Hamas is going to try to take some of these materials.

The only way to get rid of Hamas is to give the Palestinians their freedom and wait. Unless you give the Palestinians their freedom you can't complain that Hamas is still around.

 

[laughing dog]

It's looking like they're going to get ~$4 billion for rebuilding.

How much of that will really be used for rebuilding vs going to Hamas???

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

 

[bilby]

The Mouse that Roared is not a documentary you know.

 

[arkirk]

It's looking like they're going to get ~$4 billion for rebuilding.

How much of that will really be used for rebuilding vs going to Hamas???

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

The amount is 5.6 billion, not 4 billion. In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

 

[arkirk]

The Mouse that Roared is not a documentary you know.

I hardly think of Gaza as a comedy. That's a real old movie. I saw it when it came out.

 

[Bronzeage]

There are two solutions to this problem.

Solution 1: Push all the Gazans into the Mediterranean Sea.

Solution 2: Some other solution that does not involve killing everyone who lives in Gaza.

Solution 1 will definitely end the fighting. Solution 1 will require a little more creativity.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's looking like they're going to get ~$4 billion for rebuilding.

How much of that will really be used for rebuilding vs going to Hamas???

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

1) The issue was why Hamas picked the war in the first place.

2) If much of the money is actually being siphoned off by Hamas the people would actually be better off if it wasn't sent in the first place because that would make Hamas not pick a fight next time around.

- - - Updated - - -

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

The amount is 5.6 billion, not 4 billion. In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

It's not a matter of Israel accepting Hamas, it's a matter of Hamas accepting Israel.

 

[Arctish]

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

1) The issue was why Hamas picked the war in the first place.

I'm not so sure that Hamas did pick a fight. I don't believe the Hamas leadership decided to have another round of fighting with Israel and chose kidnapping hitchhikers as their first strategic strike. I think elements within Hamas plotted the kidnapping, it went poorly, and it resulted in the murder of those three boys, the vengeance-murder of an innocent younger boy, and a hugely destructive round of fighting in Gaza.

I think the widespread fighting and destruction of Gaza was the unforeseen consequence of a crime, not a planned outcome.

You are postulating that 1) Hamas chose to ignite a war through kidnapping, despite the fact that kidnappings have not ignited wars in the past and 2) that Hamas did it for the money, despite the fact Hamas could not have known how much money, if any, would be pledged in foreign aid, or how much aid Israel would allow it to receive. I don't think either one is likely.

2) If much of the money is actually being siphoned off by Hamas the people would actually be better off if it wasn't sent in the first place because that would make Hamas not pick a fight next time around.

- - - Updated - - -

The Gazans might be better off with other leadership. Or they might be worse off. A weaker ruling party won't be able to fight off Israel, and appeasement just means Gazans lose everything sooner. A stronger ruling party would be even harder to dislodge if/when they become a dictatorship, or an utterly corrupt, oppressive aristocracy. Hamas might be the best of a bad lot.

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

The amount is 5.6 billion, not 4 billion. In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

It's not a matter of Israel accepting Hamas, it's a matter of Hamas accepting Israel.

The PLO accepted Israel before there was a Hamas. It didn't change anything. Why would Hamas accepting Israel change things now? What would change?

 

[Ford]

In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

Israel doesn't merely accept Hamas. They love Hamas. Hamas gives them excuses.

Not all that long ago, the bogeyman that threatened Israel was this outfit named the P.L.O. After decades of struggle and lots of terrorism, the organization changed. In effect, they said "oh fuck it, Israel can exist, we'll settle down and stop with the attacks, and set up a government on what little land the Israelis begrudgingly bequeath to us." The Palestinian Liberation Organization became "Fatah," and have made a not inconsiderable effort to be peaceful neighbors with the folks they were trying to kill (and who were trying to kill them).

Yet rather than help Fatah establish themselves as a legitimate representative of the Palestinians and support their efforts, Israel turned all their efforts (and weapons) on Hamas.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if Hamas pulled what the P.L.O. did (recognizing Israel, renouncing terrorism, attempting to make nice) the Israeli government would find a new enemy to focus on. Israel needs Hamas. Will some of the reconstruction money wind up in Hamas' hands? Probably.


But the real money is to be made in constructing settlements, walls, and in spending the billions the US sends to Israel every year.

 

[Jayjay]

US pledge for rebuilding Gaza: $212 million.
US emergency aid for Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system: $225 million.

... and that's in addition to the ~$3B annual military aid. So Qatar is basically giving Hamas a billion dollars for their troubles, but that's still less than third of what US gives to Israel every year. You might as well ask, did Israel start this war because they knew they can count on the US footing the bill?

 

[4321lynx]

1) The issue was why Hamas picked the war in the first place.

I'm not so sure that Hamas did pick a fight. I don't believe the Hamas leadership decided to have another round of fighting with Israel and chose kidnapping hitchhikers as their first strategic strike. I think elements within Hamas plotted the kidnapping, it went poorly, and it resulted in the murder of those three boys, the vengeance-murder of an innocent younger boy, and a hugely destructive round of fighting in Gaza.

I think the widespread fighting and destruction of Gaza was the unforeseen consequence of a crime, not a planned outcome.

You are postulating that 1) Hamas chose to ignite a war through kidnapping, despite the fact that kidnappings have not ignited wars in the past and 2) that Hamas did it for the money, despite the fact Hamas could not have known how much money, if any, would be pledged in foreign aid, or how much aid Israel would allow it to receive. I don't think either one is likely.

2) If much of the money is actually being siphoned off by Hamas the people would actually be better off if it wasn't sent in the first place because that would make Hamas not pick a fight next time around.

- - - Updated - - -

The Gazans might be better off with other leadership. Or they might be worse off. A weaker ruling party won't be able to fight off Israel, and appeasement just means Gazans lose everything sooner. A stronger ruling party would be even harder to dislodge if/when they become a dictatorship, or an utterly corrupt, oppressive aristocracy. Hamas might be the best of a bad lot.

Suppose that is true. What does that say about the situation? Let the civilians suffer more?

The amount is 5.6 billion, not 4 billion. In the end, Israel will have to accept Hamas because it is not going away. They need to stop hammering on those people. They can't get away and they will not be going away. Israel has created its own very special festering sore and keeps picking at it.

It's not a matter of Israel accepting Hamas, it's a matter of Hamas accepting Israel.

The PLO accepted Israel before there was a Hamas. It didn't change anything. Why would Hamas accepting Israel change things now? What would change?

Isis would perhaps take over. The PLO becoming more peaceful drove extremists into the arms of Hamas. It looks at times that the Arabs are their own worst enemies, but those are extremists who aim to destroy Israel because they think that's the only way and they don't care what their reputation is in the world outside.
The Israeli government also has extremists like Netanyahu who have decided that violence is the only way, but they're much more clever in covering their violence with sweet words of peace. But they're determined to keep ALL of Jerusalem and continue building settlements in the West Bank. And if you disagree with Israeli policies you become an "anti-semite, Jew-hater".
Violence will continue there for the foreseeable future.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) The issue was why Hamas picked the war in the first place.

I'm not so sure that Hamas did pick a fight. I don't believe the Hamas leadership decided to have another round of fighting with Israel and chose kidnapping hitchhikers as their first strategic strike. I think elements within Hamas plotted the kidnapping, it went poorly, and it resulted in the murder of those three boys, the vengeance-murder of an innocent younger boy, and a hugely destructive round of fighting in Gaza.

Even if you're right that doesn't explain why they launched the rocket barrage. The kidnapping itself didn't provoke the war.

I think the widespread fighting and destruction of Gaza was the unforeseen consequence of a crime, not a planned outcome.

I disagree. Hamas plans these things with the timing subject to when they can pretend Israel is responsible.

You are postulating that 1) Hamas chose to ignite a war through kidnapping, despite the fact that kidnappings have not ignited wars in the past and 2) that Hamas did it for the money, despite the fact Hamas could not have known how much money, if any, would be pledged in foreign aid, or how much aid Israel would allow it to receive. I don't think either one is likely.

There's always a pile of rebuilding aid after one of these spats.

The PLO accepted Israel before there was a Hamas. It didn't change anything. Why would Hamas accepting Israel change things now? What would change?

1) The PLO didn't change it's charter. It's just a deception for western ears.

2) The PLO has become much more moderate over the years--that's why the Islamist money has moved to groups like Hamas.

- - - Updated - - -

US pledge for rebuilding Gaza: $212 million.
US emergency aid for Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system: $225 million.

... and that's in addition to the ~$3B annual military aid. So Qatar is basically giving Hamas a billion dollars for their troubles, but that's still less than third of what US gives to Israel every year. You might as well ask, did Israel start this war because they knew they can count on the US footing the bill?

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Hamas gains from the war even if Israel also gets help.

 

[Arctish]

I'm not so sure that Hamas did pick a fight. I don't believe the Hamas leadership decided to have another round of fighting with Israel and chose kidnapping hitchhikers as their first strategic strike. I think elements within Hamas plotted the kidnapping, it went poorly, and it resulted in the murder of those three boys, the vengeance-murder of an innocent younger boy, and a hugely destructive round of fighting in Gaza.

Even if you're right that doesn't explain why they launched the rocket barrage. The kidnapping itself didn't provoke the war.

Hamas started launching rockets after 3 weeks of Israeli military operations in the Occupied Territories, the arrest of hundreds of Palestinians, the destruction of more than 150 Palestinian homes, and an Israeli airstrike that killed 7 Hamas members. Prior to Hamas firing rockets there had been rocket fire from non-Hamas militants, but again, the rockets followed the Israeli attacks, which were themselves in response to the kidnapping. By the time the bodies of the boys were found (on Qawasmeh family property - a large extended family notorious for operating on it's own, sometimes in direct opposition to both Fatah and Hamas) approx. 500 Palestinians had been arrested, 6 had been shot dead, 2 people had died of heart attacks brought on by the raids, and the war was on.

I think the widespread fighting and destruction of Gaza was the unforeseen consequence of a crime, not a planned outcome.

I disagree. Hamas plans these things with the timing subject to when they can pretend Israel is responsible.

You mean waiting until Israel had damaged or destroyed over 1,000 buildings, killed or wounded dozens of people, and arrested hundreds more who had nothing to do with the kidnapping before retaliating? I suppose that qualifies as timing things so Israel is held responsible for turning a crime investigation into a full blown war.

You are postulating that 1) Hamas chose to ignite a war through kidnapping, despite the fact that kidnappings have not ignited wars in the past and 2) that Hamas did it for the money, despite the fact Hamas could not have known how much money, if any, would be pledged in foreign aid, or how much aid Israel would allow it to receive. I don't think either one is likely.

There's always a pile of rebuilding aid after one of these spats.

There was already a pile of money and aid due to arrive before the fighting broke out. Your accusation doesn't make any sense.

The PLO accepted Israel before there was a Hamas. It didn't change anything. Why would Hamas accepting Israel change things now? What would change?

1) The PLO didn't change it's charter. It's just a deception for western ears.

2) The PLO has become much more moderate over the years--that's why the Islamist money has moved to groups like Hamas.

1) Yes, it did. There is some quibbling over whether the change was properly ratified, but the charter was changed and the change went through a ratification process that yielded a yes vote.

2) You didn't answer the question. What would change if Hamas recognized Israel? Why didn't it change when the PLO did it back in the 1990s?

 

[laughing dog]

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Hamas gains from the war even if Israel also gets help.

Obviously the point was that Israel gains more from picking that fight. Jayjay showed that your "reasoning" is applicable to Israel's motivations as well.

 

[Bronzeage]

What's this got to do with the price of tea in China?

Hamas gains from the war even if Israel also gets help.

This is a use of the word "gain" with which I am not familiar.

 

[Togo]

If we're following the usual patterns for these threads, the OP will have little or no interest in the question raised, but will actually be keen on trying to establish the assumption buried in the thread's title.

If this thread follows the pattern, the OP will have no interest in Why Hamas did anything, but will simply being trying to establish that it was Hamas' action, and not Israel's.

These kinds of things have to be established by assumption, because they are simply assumptions - they don't rest on any kind of logic.

 

[untermensche]

If we're following the usual patterns for these threads, the OP will have little or no interest in the question raised, but will actually be keen on trying to establish the assumption buried in the thread's title.

If this thread follows the pattern, the OP will have no interest in Why Hamas did anything, but will simply being trying to establish that it was Hamas' action, and not Israel's.

These kinds of things have to be established by assumption, because they are simply assumptions - they don't rest on any kind of logic.

A one trick pony. A one note musician. A one joke comic.

The same point over and over.

Israeli oppression and theft is justified because the response to it is ugly.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If we're following the usual patterns for these threads, the OP will have little or no interest in the question raised, but will actually be keen on trying to establish the assumption buried in the thread's title.

If this thread follows the pattern, the OP will have no interest in Why Hamas did anything, but will simply being trying to establish that it was Hamas' action, and not Israel's.

Repeatedly ignoring questions or comments addressing the OP as well.

Probably should open up a sub-forum, "LP Doesn't Like Hamas".