Aaah, the Easter Cognitive Dissonance

[Rhea]

Seeing my friends post their religious understandings of the “sacrifice” and the “resurrection” and I am withholding my opinions and letting them enjoy their holiday. But the cognitive dissonance is always so severe.


“His Sacrifice” was what - death? No, he was “dead” for only 3 days and now he’s alive (according to their theology,) so that’s not a sacrifice. 3 days? During which he knew he would come back? And the physical torture was - 3 hours? Seriously, you should be worshipping POWs for the torture they endured for years, or the abused child or the abducted sex worker. Or the ALS patient. “Sacrifice,” my foot. Sounds like my mother, “After all I’ve done for you!”

“For my sins” including the sins visited upon you by ancestors so many generations removed that you can’t even count the years (Adam and Yves’)? The sins that you think your god knew you would commit before you were even born, that it knew when it first created mankind and created them anyway? Those sins? And for many people sins that are no more harmful than maybe gossip and a mean word? HUman sacrifice was needed for those sins?

“So that I could be forgiven”. You never explained why a human sacrifice was needed to get your god’s forgiveness. THis doesn’t seem like human-created hyperbole that contradicts the claim of a “loving” or omnniscient god? Why is it even needed? Is it a plot device that makes necessary the human obsequious reaction, “Oh thank you! Thank you! Oh, I can see this hurt you more than it hurt me,” that you think a god really wants? That somehow, in order for it to be “for you” the god has to obey someone’s rule (whose?) that “well someone has to pay for this mess!” That the god himself made? I guess in the end, it’s appropriate for the god (or a piece of it) to be the one to suffer for the imperfectionn of the creation that the god created knowing what the creation would do from the moment it made the creation.

“And be accepted into heaven” the place where nothing bad will happen and no sin is done but somehow never violates that argument that free will is needed to display love? That place? The one where no sad thought is felt even if you’re a mother whose 5 kids are all atheists and are therefore burning in hell so essentially you’ve stopped caring about them? That heaven?

The whole thing just makes no sense at all.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Particularly since our “souls” are evidently some sort of separate, eternal and primary “spirit” that simply inhabits our flesh/bodies. So why would it matter at all what happens during our comparatively infinitesimal time driving around a meat sack? Especially since the whole shooting match is establishing that we “believe in” God/Jesus. So what’s meat got to do with that?

If I were to die and then actually find that my “soul” exists and is in some “after meat” realm facing a judging being who wants to know whether or not I “believe in him” then the answer would obviously be “yes,” because there they and I would be, so the evidence is pretty irrefutable. But of course you say that to any cult member and they say, “What matters is what you believed while you were alive” which of course means while you were driving the meat sack around. Why?

And then they usually get into “faith,” but again, why does the statute of limitations on faith/believe have anything to do with our meat sacks? That would be like saying, “It’s only murder if you kill someone while you drive your car.” What has the car got to do with it?

 

[Underseer]

You are forgiven for something you didn't do because thousands of years ago, the Romans supposedly killed someone who also didn't do it. Aren't you thankful?

 

[Lion IRC]

“His Sacrifice” was what - death? No, he was “dead” for only 3 days and now he’s alive (according to their theology,) so that’s not a sacrifice. 3 days?

They invented a word - excruciating - to describe the sacrifice for which He volunteered.
Dissonance? Not really. But you are right to wonder about why He would do that.

...During which he knew he would come back? And the physical torture was - 3 hours? Seriously, you should be worshipping POWs for the torture they endured for years, or the abused child or the abducted sex worker. Or the ALS patient.

Not based on your reasoning we shouldn't.
3 days, 1 day, 6 months, a year...all temporary and death comes as a relief right?
And if any sufferer knows there is the promise of heaven then, by YOUR reasoning, they too aren't really experiencing anything noteworthy. And if they are atheists they themselves would wonder, like you, what's the point.

...“Sacrifice,” my foot. Sounds like my mother, “After all I’ve done for you!”

Your mother did or didn't do anything for you?

...“For my sins”

If you don't believe in sin then, yes, I suppose forgiveness is a moot point for people like you.
But it's not cognitive dissonance for someone who does believe in sin to have their sin forgiven.

...“So that I could be forgiven”. You never explained why a human sacrifice was needed to get your god’s forgiveness.

It wasn't needed.
It was done voluntarily.
All forgiveness is voluntary. Jesus' sacrifice was voluntary.

...“And be accepted into heaven” the place where nothing bad will happen and no sin is done but somehow never violates that argument that free will is needed to display love? That place?

Nobody gets forced into heaven - Gods Kingdom - against their will

...The whole thing just makes no sense at all.

Yeah, we know.
...a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.
If I never sinned or thought there was no God, I would be just as baffled as you

 

[Lion IRC]

Breaking News - 8 hours ago

Breaking News
A French police officer who offered himself up to an extremist gunman in exchange for a hostage has died of his injuries.

https://www.firstpost.com/world/fra...for-hostage-succumbs-to-injuries-4403673.html

 

[Rhea]

Lion, you have not interacted with the actual dissonance. You’ve typed some pablum. Maybe people you know are satisfied with that, but it is dissonant.

They invented a word - excruciating - to describe the sacrifice for which He volunteered.

And you think what he endured - the betrayal, the whipping the “death” was worse than what a 5 year POW endures? You should read “Unbroken”. Or, anything about the Holocaust. Or Slavery. Jesus didn’t have his teeth drilled out without anesthesia to make dentures for white folks. Jesus wasn’t whipped for _decades_. Jesus didn’t have his children shot in front of him. Jesus wasn’t starved and forced to eat maggots just to get enough protein to survive. Jesus didn’t get held captive and raped daily for 19 years.

Yeah, they invented a word for the guy who suffered for 3 hours.. Woot.
That doesn’t break your head? It doesn’t make sense when we _know_ that people have suffered far worse for far longer. But you people look at them and say, “well that’s not as bad as Jesus’ _excrutiating_ three hours.”

I just don’t know how you live with yourselves when you think that.

Dissonance? Not really. But you are right to wonder about why He would do that.

LOL, I love how you fill in the narrative you want to imagine I’m saying instead of the one I’m actually saying.

I never wondered why in your story you write that he did it. I know why you think so. You think he was bound by the earlier bit of himself that impregnanted a woman to give birth to himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself in order to appease himself. That all makes perfect sense in the story arc your tale that must include human sacrifice

No I don’t wonder why he did that in the context of your story because your ending requires this plot device.

No, I said, “that’s not a real sacrifice in the grand scheme of earthly sacrifices.”

Not based on your reasoning we shouldn't
3 days, 1 day, 6 months, a year...all temporary and death comes as a relief right?
And if any sufferer knows there is the promise of heaven then, by YOUR reasoning, they too aren't really experiencing anything noteworthy. And if they are atheists they themselves would wonder, like you, what's the point.

Cute again. No, we’re talking about YOUR claim that this person was a son of (piece of) a god with whom he had actual live dialogue and knew what was coming and how it would go. Not “belief.” Knowledge

All of us can clench our teeth and bear it if we are absolutely certain it will end. A God (I mean, you are one of those that thinks Jesus was divine, right? And that he knew it?) surely can do better than a 5 year POW, or a 20 year sex slave, yes?

...“Sacrifice,” my foot. Sounds like my mother, “After all I’ve done for you!”

Your mother did or didn't do anything for you?

LOL, you think every mother who utters, “after all I’ve done for you,” is being reasonable. No Mother I do not want your hand-me-down dress, I really really don’t. Even after all you’ve done for me. I’m not a sycophant.

...“For my sins”

If you don't believe in sin then, yes, I suppose forgiveness is a moot point for people like you.

Also not what I said. I believe forgiveness is real and prudent and valuable. But I don’t need a human sacrifice if someone dots their i with a little heart or forgets my special day.

But it's not cognitive dissonance for someone who does believe in sin to have their sin forgiven.

It is for me to think you need someone to die “excrutiatingly” because they wear both flax and wool in the same shirt and forgot to abase themselves with regret for it. It’s especially dissonant if you think a little toddler needs that human sacrifice to overcome the “original sin” of being born.

...“So that I could be forgiven”. You never explained why a human sacrifice was needed to get your god’s forgiveness.

It wasn't needed.

Then why on earth was it done? Why not just model excellent behavior and say, “I forgive you” without the bloodletting?

It was done voluntarily.

What a stupid thing to do if it wasn’t needed. Now THAT is cognitive dissonance.

All forgiveness is voluntary. Jesus' sacrifice was voluntary.

Again you pretend that a sacrifice is necessary for forgiveness. Whose rule is that?

...“And be accepted into heaven” the place where nothing bad will happen and no sin is done but somehow never violates that argument that free will is needed to display love? That place?

Nobody gets forced into heaven - Gods Kingdom - against their will

Complete non sequitur. Who said anything about that? Why did you make that up? Because it seemed like an easier argument to knock down than the one I actually made?

ONCE YOU ARE IN HEAVEN, your book says, you won’t commit any wrong.
And your apologists say that people do wrong on earth because they have free will.

So you are claiming that EITHER there is no free will in heaven OR free will does not preclude all-good behavior.

...The whole thing just makes no sense at all.

Yeah, we know.
...a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.
If I never sinned or thought there was no God, I would be just as baffled as you

Nah. Even if you do think there is a god, it still doesn’t make any sense.
Unless, by “belief” you mean, “I will not think about any of these contradictions because... I won’t.”

 

[Lion IRC]

Lion, you have not interacted with the actual dissonance.

That's because I don't feel that there is any.
You claim that there is. But that's YOUR inability to process a long-standing, well-developed theological concept that the biblical theism holds as rational and reasonable.

I actually find some dissonance in your belief that just because you think something is "nonsense" everyone who disagrees with you on that point must therefore be barking mad.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Where do you get the “volunteered” part, Lion? He fell to the ground and prayed for his daddy to stop his death three times, noting specifically that his own will (to stop it) was different from his father’s will (to require it):

Mark 14:35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

37 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Simon,” he said to Peter, “are you asleep? Couldn’t you keep watch for one hour? 38 Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing. 40 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. They did not know what to say to him.

41 Returning the third time, he said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

 

[Rhea]

Lion, you have not interacted with the actual dissonance.

That's because I don't feel that there is any.
You claim that there is. But that's YOUR inability to process a long-standing, well-developed theological concept that the biblical theism holds as rational and reasonable.

I actually find some dissonance in your belief that just because you think something is "nonsense" everyone who disagrees with you on that point must therefore be barking mad.

Let me re-phrase, for the deflectors:

You have not been able to give reasonable counter to the dissonance being discussed. You have ignored it, preached on a different topic and declared victory.

I _GET_ that you and your ilk do not wish to discuss these conflicts. I _GET_ that you would prefer to just waggle your finger and declare “No Conflict! No Conflict!” But you have offered no explanation as to how you solved these conflicts other than compartmentalization and sweeing under the rug. I _GET_ that you are satisfied by that method.

Just understand that you have not said anything useful, pursuasive, or forward-moving, that’s all.

 

[Rhea]

He fell to the ground and prayed for his daddy to stop his death three times, noting specifically that his own will (to stop it) was different from his father’s will (to require it):

Mark 14:35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

[...]
39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing.

They never quite explain how the author got ahold of that quote either, do they? If they were all asleep, who heard Jesus pray? Think Jesus was maybe wearing a wire? Or he came back and said, “hey fellas, since you were sleeping, let me update you on the dialogue I had with my Daddy about how I’m not volunteering for this but being forced to die by Daddy. I’m just telling you so you can write it down for later and then later Christians can deny I said it. But honest, I totally had this conversation with my Daddy while you were sleeping, I swear.”

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Easter is pagan, even the word is pagan, a fact that escapes 99.99% of CDers.

For the christians I hope everyone has a happy Excrutiation Holiday!

 

[abaddon]

You have not been able to give reasonable counter to the dissonance being discussed.

Rhea, fundy theists can't explain their cognitive dissonance. That's a psychological thing, not a philosophical one. If it's there then it's a turmoil inside them, and people who have it are generally unaware. Which is a necessary trait of strong belief, that self-reflective skills are lacking. Their egos make them scoff and say "I feel no such dissonance" and they probably really don't, no matter how the skating around looks like deliberate avoidance.

Personally, it's only the psychology of belief that interest me anymore because it's already clear the beliefs themselves can't reconcile with reason. But there's no point in directly asking an unconscious believer-bot to resolve his dissonances. You could only describe it as they make outer displays of it, and then ignore their denials; and I think that's as far as the challenge to resolve "dissonance" can get. But, point is, it looks to me like you combined frustration at their psychology with dismay at the ancient conceptions themselves and end up calling them both "dissonance". They're different things.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

He fell to the ground and prayed for his daddy to stop his death three times, noting specifically that his own will (to stop it) was different from his father’s will (to require it):

Mark 14:35 Going a little farther, he fell to the ground and prayed that if possible the hour might pass from him. 36 “Abba,[f] Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

[...]
39 Once more he went away and prayed the same thing.

They never quite explain how the author got ahold of that quote either, do they? If they were all asleep, who heard Jesus pray? Think Jesus was maybe wearing a wire? Or he came back and said, “hey fellas, since you were sleeping, let me update you on the dialogue I had with my Daddy about how I’m not volunteering for this but being forced to die by Daddy. I’m just telling you so you can write it down for later and then later Christians can deny I said it. But honest, I totally had this conversation with my Daddy while you were sleeping, I swear.”

Even worse for Lion’s position, since the only possible way that could have been recorded for the ages (were any of this nonsense historical events that is) would be for it to have been “god breathed,” which would only underscore the fact that Jesus did not in any way volunteer; it was not a self-sacrifice; he ain’t God; and God, through inaction, required it for no possible reason AND God wanted all of humanity to know that it wasn’t voluntary and that God required it, hence “breathing” it into whoever the author of GMark was.

Iow, it can’t be spun. If it happened, the only way we know it happened is God deliberately “told” the author what transpired, so there’s no mistaking it and no way for any cult member to say, “no, no, no, what it means is....”. It’s straightforward. Jesus begged his dad three times to stop his impending death—that they both evidently knew was impending—and that it was very clearly God’s will that Jesus be killed and Jesus’ will not to be killed if it were possible, which, since all things are possible with God, definitively established that Jesus was purposefully killed in the manner that he was killed due exclusively to God’s will.

Iow, God killed Jesus. No way around it.

 

[Lion IRC]

Jesus could have done whatever He wanted.
He could have decided not to go thru with it.
Not wanting to do something unpleasant doesn't prevent people from volunteering.

But could someone please explain to me how Gethsemene events - like Jesus interior dialogue with the Father - being later reported in the bible are a logical inference that Jesus didn't/couldnt volunteer.

 

[Lion IRC]

Where do you get the “volunteered” part, Lion?

From here;

"No one takes my life away from me. I give it up of my own free will."

"I am the good shepherd, who is willing to die for the sheep. "

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Jesus begged his dad three times to stop his impending death—that they both evidently knew was impending—and that it was very clearly God’s will that Jesus be killed and Jesus’ will not to be killed if it were possible, which, since all things are possible with God, definitively established that Jesus was purposefully killed in the manner that he was killed due exclusively to God’s will.

Iow, God killed Jesus. No way around it.

I think believers also have an attraction with all the cruelty and bloodletting in the fable, particularly today. Without that the story just isn't interesting or worth watching. Somehow it all makes sense to them, they can justify it.

When a man does a real gruesome job on his kid, that's good stuff. It quite clearly one-ups prior human sacrifice in which people were killed to satisfy their gods. This god requires that the victim be tortured first, and the more torture the better because it's what the audience wants.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

But there’s also the problem with the fact that, a sacrifice is made by someone else, not the individual. You sacrifice a goat to a god, not yourself. And through your act of sacrificing your goat (or lamb or best grain, or whatever) you are partaking in a ritual to garner favor from your god.

But no one sacrificed Jesus to God, but God. The Romans killed him, but not as part of any ritual sacrifice to garner God’s favor. The Jews somehow magically insisted the Romans kill him, but likewise not as any sacrificial ritual to garner God’s favor either. That only leaves God sacrificing to himself.

So God required of himself a sacrifice to him BY him of his own son for the express purpose of doing something he could do at any time for no reason at all (or never having done in the first place); forgive humanity’s sin (or to get really wacky, the actual purpose which was to forgive the punishment of death placed upon us by Adam’s “sin” of disobedience).

Throw in the trinity nonsense and you have God requiring himself to kill himself as a necessary sacrifice to himself so that he could allow himself to forgive us for something we didn’t do.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But there’s also the problem with the fact that, a sacrifice is made by someone else, not the individual. You sacrifice a goat to a god, not yourself. And through your act of sacrificing your goat (or lamb or best grain, or whatever) you are partaking in a ritual to garner favor from your god.

But no one sacrificed Jesus but God. So God required of himself a sacrifice to him BY him of his own son for the express purpose of doing something he could do at any time for no reason at all (or never having done in the first place); forgive humanity’s sin (or to get really wacky, the actual purpose which was to forgive the punishment of death placed upon us by Adam’s “sin” of disobedience).

Throw in the trinity nonsense and you have God requiring himself to kill himself as a necessary sacrifice to himself so that he could allow himself to forgive us for something we didn’t do.

They don't think about that. If you or I were attracted to an orange post or a particular rock or tree, we certainly wouldn't be put off from our emotional attachment by rational arguments.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Originally posted by Lion IRC:

Jesus could have done whatever He wanted.

That's another belief, it's not something you know. Specifically, it's a part of your dogma, and so you'll speak as if you have the knowledge, but you are guessing. This is faith, and why it's dishonest. You end up stating things as fact when deep down if you search hard, you will realize they are actually unknown to you.

But let's run with it. Jesus could do whatever he wanted. OK. So why this way? Why so inefficient? Why so indirect? So easy to doubt? Why is there such resemblance to so many other religions? Why other than word of mouth, like a badly constructed and written book? A book that has changed so much over the centuries in accordance with the will of those that were powerful at the time periods it was written? Why does your religion have all the same flaws and excuses and "mysteries" as so many other religions that make the same claims as yours?

In short, why is your God so small?

He really should have done better.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Originally posted by Lion IRC:

Jesus could have done whatever He wanted.

That's another belief, it's not something you know. Specifically, it's a part of your dogma, and so you'll speak as if you have the knowledge, but you are guessing. This is faith, and why it's dishonest. You end up stating things as fact when deep down if you search hard, you will realize they are actually unknown to you.

But let's run with it. Jesus could do whatever he wanted. OK. So why this way? Why so inefficient? Why so indirect? So easy to doubt? Why is there such resemblance to so many other religions? Why other than word of mouth, like a badly constructed and written book? A book that has changed so much over the centuries in accordance with the will of those that were powerful at the time periods it was written? Why does your religion have all the same flaws and excuses and "mysteries" as so many other religions that make the same claims as yours?

In short, why is your God so small?

He really should have done better.

God: I gotta do something, boy. People are eating pigs and souls are going to hell. What's a god to do?
(thinking)
I got it, boy! We torture you and then murder you.
Jesus: I'm in. I love it! This is the best plan ever!
God: Not so fast there, boy. Then I bring you back to life and have you talk to lots of people before you fly away into the sky. We also work in some betrayal, a sad but stoic Mom, a rich benefactor to put you in a tomb, Romans, Pharisees, have a temple tantrum, punch out a couple fig trees. Man, I'm telling you this is gonna make us some jingle.
Jesus: Dad, you're sooooooooooooo smart. No one else could come up with such a great plan for fixing bad people.
God: Yeah, I been racking my head about this one since the sneaky snake garden thing and it finally hit me. There just isn't any other way to fix this mess. Lets do it!