Abbas doesn't want a peace deal

[arkirk]

So Loren, are you telling us that ALWAYS the JEWS are right and ALWAYS the Arabs are wrong? There will always be differences in perception wherever there is conflict. So we should get over it and quit wasting all this money on weapons of destruction mass produced. The only sector of our economy that benefits from this pernicious propaganda are weapons manufacturers. To my knowledge, Israel is not loaded with oil, so we should just let them be and take care of their own problems. We just arm one side. Too many American Jews believe what Loren is saying here. I have to ask, WHO BENEFITS IF HE IS BELIEVED? Maybe he can answer.

 

[Derec]

So Loren, are you telling us that ALWAYS the JEWS are right and ALWAYS the Arabs are wrong? There will always be differences in perception wherever there is conflict. So we should get over it and quit wasting all this money on weapons of destruction mass produced. The only sector of our economy that benefits from this pernicious propaganda are weapons manufacturers. To my knowledge, Israel is not loaded with oil, so we should just let them be and take care of their own problems. We just arm one side. Too many American Jews believe what Loren is saying here. I have to ask, WHO BENEFITS IF HE IS BELIEVED? Maybe he can answer.

Why is US' tepid support of Israel considered a problem but support by the Arab League, Iran, the EU and many others for the Palestinians isn't? If anything, US being the only supporter or Israel, should increase it. Especially when Israel is engaged in military operations against Palestinian terrorists US should not pressure Israel to stop prematurely. Also, US should not pressure Israel to give harmful concessions like releasing terrorist prisoners. All that does is put more seasoned terrorists in circulation - hardly conducive to peace.

 

[arkirk]

Why is US' tepid support of Israel considered a problem but support by the Arab League, Iran, the EU and many others for the Palestinians isn't? If anything, US being the only supporter or Israel, should increase it. Especially when Israel is engaged in military operations against Palestinian terrorists US should not pressure Israel to stop prematurely. Also, US should not pressure Israel to give harmful concessions like releasing terrorist prisoners. All that does is put more seasoned terrorists in circulation - hardly conducive to peace.

Wake up and smell the coffee, Derek! We are NOT A PARTY TO THIS CONFLICT. We have no business in supporting a government that engages in apartheid and ethnic cleansing. We have no business supporting terrorists. We do not need to send military supplies there. Israel attacked and killed people on a humanitarian relief effort awhile ago. They were not bringing bombs and guns to Gaza. It is true there are rascals and angry people all over the middle east. This should not be construed to be a license to support one rascal over another.

Israel's biggest fear is the U.S. making peace with Iran. Israel foments conflicts with muslims wherever they exist. Is it not time to recognize their propaganda for what it is: Propaganda to empower expansion of ethnic cleansing in Palestine.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So Loren, are you telling us that ALWAYS the JEWS are right and ALWAYS the Arabs are wrong? There will always be differences in perception wherever there is conflict. So we should get over it and quit wasting all this money on weapons of destruction mass produced. The only sector of our economy that benefits from this pernicious propaganda are weapons manufacturers. To my knowledge, Israel is not loaded with oil, so we should just let them be and take care of their own problems. We just arm one side. Too many American Jews believe what Loren is saying here. I have to ask, WHO BENEFITS IF HE IS BELIEVED? Maybe he can answer.

I never said that Israel is always in the right. I'm saying when it comes to peace talks it's always the Palestinians not holding up their end of the deal.

 

[arkirk]

I never said that Israel is always in the right. I'm saying when it comes to peace talks it's always the Palestinians not holding up their end of the deal.

The Palestinians have nothing to deal with. Their homes, their lands, their infrastructure, their means of survival have all been systematically taken from them. Israel's idea of a deal would be for Palestinians to yield everything that has already been taken by force to Israel. Your argument is a Catch 22.

When a drug addict goes into therapy he starts essentially at zero...no job, poor health, a terrible mental state, no security and a powerful craving to find comfort. Drug addiction is not the only thing that creates these conditions in human beings. Oppression does the same thing. Negotiators have to accept that the majority of the concession have to be made by the stronger more secure party. Isn't that Israel? They also have to accept that the Palestinians have been stripped of most of their means to deliver anything at all. They are essentially at the same zero as the drug addict.

If a major public works program to rectify the shortage of civil order in the Palestinian territories were undertaken and they were allowed to eat properly again and to be be safe in their homes and fields, then there would not be a problem. What they lack, Israel has in abundance. They of course have imported most of it from Europe. How about swallowing a bit of that technological pride and realizing that that does not constitute moral superiority. We need to see some resolution of this human misery.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Palestinians have nothing to deal with. Their homes, their lands, their infrastructure, their means of survival have all been systematically taken from them. Israel's idea of a deal would be for Palestinians to yield everything that has already been taken by force to Israel. Your argument is a Catch 22.

When a drug addict goes into therapy he starts essentially at zero...no job, poor health, a terrible mental state, no security and a powerful craving to find comfort. Drug addiction is not the only thing that creates these conditions in human beings. Oppression does the same thing. Negotiators have to accept that the majority of the concession have to be made by the stronger more secure party. Isn't that Israel? They also have to accept that the Palestinians have been stripped of most of their means to deliver anything at all. They are essentially at the same zero as the drug addict.

If a major public works program to rectify the shortage of civil order in the Palestinian territories were undertaken and they were allowed to eat properly again and to be be safe in their homes and fields, then there would not be a problem. What they lack, Israel has in abundance. They of course have imported most of it from Europe. How about swallowing a bit of that technological pride and realizing that that does not constitute moral superiority. We need to see some resolution of this human misery.

It would help if you had some idea of what's going on over there.

The only ones keeping them from eating well are Hamas. And if the various terrorist groups weren't attacking the Palestinians would be safe in their homes and fields.

Besides, looking over the B'Tselem data (which is *VERY* biased in favor of the Palestinians) I have to go back to 2012 to find someone who died in their house who wasn't obviously either a combatant or in the proximity of combatants. There were several legitimate hits that day but I can't confirm that this death was part of one of them.

 

[arkirk]

It would help if you had some idea of what's going on over there.

The only ones keeping them from eating well are Hamas. And if the various terrorist groups weren't attacking the Palestinians would be safe in their homes and fields.

Besides, looking over the B'Tselem data (which is *VERY* biased in favor of the Palestinians) I have to go back to 2012 to find someone who died in their house who wasn't obviously either a combatant or in the proximity of combatants. There were several legitimate hits that day but I can't confirm that this death was part of one of them.

You say it would help if I knew what was going on there. I might say the same thing to you! If it has no bearing on what happens in your own screwed up country, why not work on that instead of all this overseas intrigue and you can't confirm anything. That's mighty cavalier with human life if you ask me. I am certain there is a conflict in Palestine and what we have been doing has not served to lessen it. There really is no reason to support either side. So when it is like that, isn't it time to go home and let them settle it? All we do is feed the fire and the Palestinians will look worse and worse to us if we are deeply invested in Israel. We need to tell them they need to get busy making peace then get out and stay out.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

[/COLOR]
You say it would help if I knew what was going on there. I might say the same thing to you! If it has no bearing on what happens in your own screwed up country, why not work on that instead of all this overseas intrigue and you can't confirm anything. That's mighty cavalier with human life if you ask me. I am certain there is a conflict in Palestine and what we have been doing has not served to lessen it. There really is no reason to support either side. So when it is like that, isn't it time to go home and let them settle it? All we do is feed the fire and the Palestinians will look worse and worse to us if we are deeply invested in Israel. We need to tell them they need to get busy making peace then get out and stay out.

Our objective should be to act to minimize the harm.

And as for the case you're highlighting--after I posted that I realized what probably happened. The data simply said a direct hit to the house--without indicating the weapon involved, something they normally indicated. Given how much else happened the same day I'm thinking it was probably a short-falling terrorist rocket (the performance is abysmal and they kill about as many Palestinians as Israelis) and not the Israelis at all.

 

[arkirk]

Our objective should be to act to minimize the harm.

And as for the case you're highlighting--after I posted that I realized what probably happened. The data simply said a direct hit to the house--without indicating the weapon involved, something they normally indicated. Given how much else happened the same day I'm thinking it was probably a short-falling terrorist rocket (the performance is abysmal and they kill about as many Palestinians as Israelis) and not the Israelis at all.

The great majority of American citizens have no actual economic or personal interest in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. That is to say when I use the word interest, I am speaking of economic or physical potential to gain or lose from the outcome of the conflict. It is not our fight, excepting in the matter of human rights. If we go there, we find ourselves opposite Israel which maintains control of its territory with racial and religious oppression. WHAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED IN PALESTINE IS THE LIVING CONDITIONS OF THE PALESTINIANS. You never discuss their problems in anything other than a scathing tone of anti religious opprobrium. Bear in mind that the Jewish religion is every bit as ridiculous as Islam and is no more a guide for fair governance than Islam.

I question your steadfast loyalty to AIPAC talking points and feel you are prejudiced against Arabs in general. It is prejudice such as yours that maintains this continuing spectacle of human humiliation. What exactly would YOU SEEK as an outcome of this conflict from where we are today?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The great majority of American citizens have no actual economic or personal interest in the Israel/Palestinian conflict. That is to say when I use the word interest, I am speaking of economic or physical potential to gain or lose from the outcome of the conflict. It is not our fight, excepting in the matter of human rights. If we go there, we find ourselves opposite Israel which maintains control of its territory with racial and religious oppression. WHAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED IN PALESTINE IS THE LIVING CONDITIONS OF THE PALESTINIANS. You never discuss their problems in anything other than a scathing tone of anti religious opprobrium. Bear in mind that the Jewish religion is every bit as ridiculous as Islam and is no more a guide for fair governance than Islam.

I question your steadfast loyalty to AIPAC talking points and feel you are prejudiced against Arabs in general. It is prejudice such as yours that maintains this continuing spectacle of human humiliation. What exactly would YOU SEEK as an outcome of this conflict from where we are today?

What you fail to understand is that those bad living conditions are directly caused by their own government, not by Israel.

Their per capita GDP used to be about 3x what it is now before the terrorists went on the warpath. The perennial shortages in Gaza are not caused by Israel but by Hamas. They don't pay the utility bills, they don't pay the fuel bills, they steal the donated medical supplies and resell them etc.

 

[Derec]

Wake up and smell the coffee, Derek!

Please, Derec with c. And I do not see how coffee smell would make me see things your way.

We are NOT A PARTY TO THIS CONFLICT.

Our ally Israel is. Which is why US support for Israel should be more forceful, not less. Again, do you have a problem with all the countries that are supporting the Palestinians and vilifying Israel?

We have no business in supporting a government that engages in apartheid and ethnic cleansing.

Which Israel isn't.

We have no business supporting terrorists.

I agree! That's why we (and the EU) need to stop all aid to Palestinian Authority.

We do not need to send military supplies there.

Why not? Israel has the right to defend herself. Besides, unlike Palestinians they do not target civilians.

Israel attacked and killed people on a humanitarian relief effort awhile ago.

You mean the Gaza flotilla? They attempted to run a legitimate naval blockade and did not submit to a search peacefully. Without an inspection there is no way to determine what exactly was on those boats.

They were not bringing bombs and guns to Gaza.

Then they could go through proper channels to bring legitimate supplies in. The only purpose of blockade running is to bring contraband. If not in the first flotilla (a sort of "dry run" if you will) then on subsequent trips.

It is true there are rascals and angry people all over the middle east. This should not be construed to be a license to support one rascal over another.

No side is perfect. But that does not mean the sides are equivalent. There is world of difference between Israel and the Palestinians in this conflict.

Israel's biggest fear is the U.S. making peace with Iran.

Israel had good relations with Iran until the weirdbeards took over. I do not see them making peace with US any more than with Israel. Conversely, should weirdbeards be deposed I do not see what would stand in the way of Israel renewing friendly relations with the people of Iran.

Israel foments conflicts with muslims wherever they exist.

Israel had good relations with Iran until the revolution there. They had good relations with Turkey until Erdogan struck a hardline course. Israel made a peace treaty with Egypt which held for decades but Muslim Brothers threatened to abrogate it during their (thankfully) brief reign.
A pattern emerges here. It is not Islam that Israel has a problem with but Islamism, and that chiefly because Islamists have a problem with Israel.

 

[Sarpedon]

As to Erdogan, and I am far from a fan of Erdogan, the rupture with Israel began with Israel's disastrous invasion of Lebanon in 2006, which was basically Olmert's wag the dog attempt to distract from his own corruption. It was further exacerbated by the Gaza invasion and the flotilla raid that left several turkish citizens dead. While Erdogan has not bent over backwards to heal the rift, I think its pretty clear that Israel has been the active side. w

 

[pegasus8]

Ah Yes The American Zionist-Reg TM- Are Strong Here In The Land Of Gentiles So Let Us Bomb More Arabs! God Bless

Gosh darn the rest of the world getting pissed off about illegal squaters, er I mean Israeli settlements on ocupied, er I mean captured land. Does not the rest of the world know that this land belongs to the Israelis. I mean it says so somewhere there in some book and stuff so it must be true. And anyway God told them to do anything that they want to the locals anyway. I mean Christ sake this is why they call themselves the "Chosen People." You know chosen to be subsidized by the tune of $$ billions a year all in the name of "defending " themselves by a torment and onslaught of high tech weapons like mortars, homemade rockets and stuff.

So please repeat after me folks. Anyone who dare speaks out against poor little Israel, 10th largest military in the world, trying to defend herself, by killing 1000's of people and imprisoning 1000's more, then just call them stupid or even better anti-semetic!

See was that easy? Oh and what is that new sound all over the West Bank and the occupied lands we hear, oops conquered/acquired lands? Gee if you said more illegal/squater settlements then you win a cookie.

Thanks guys and when is the next invasion er I mean incursion on those pesky natives? You know those Arabs. We can not call them Palestinians because Sidney Sheldon paid Newt G., $$ 10 million bucks, to go on Israeli TV and say with a straight face that Palestinians are just made up people! Gee I guess those are just made up bombs paid by made up American taxpayers too!

God bless America and Israel. Oh and nuke Osama Bin Laden

Peace

Pegasus

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As to Erdogan, and I am far from a fan of Erdogan, the rupture with Israel began with Israel's disastrous invasion of Lebanon in 2006, which was basically Olmert's wag the dog attempt to distract from his own corruption. It was further exacerbated by the Gaza invasion and the flotilla raid that left several turkish citizens dead. While Erdogan has not bent over backwards to heal the rift, I think its pretty clear that Israel has been the active side. w

You mean the war Hezbollah started in order to solidify their position in Lebanon? Why are you blaming Israel for this?

 

[Jayjay]

They won't compromise so long as much of their income comes from continuing the war.

That's kinda true. Everything boils down to economics, and given the shitty deal Israel is willing to offer, it doesn't take much to tip the scales in favor of "war", if you can call it that ... note that West Bank hasn't really engaged in any serious war apart from throwing a few rocks in a long time now.

 

[bigfield]

Their per capita GDP used to be about 3x what it is now before the terrorists went on the warpath. The perennial shortages in Gaza are not caused by Israel but by Hamas. They don't pay the utility bills, they don't pay the fuel bills, they steal the donated medical supplies and resell them etc.

Shouldn't Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip be considered a completely separate entity than the Fatah-ruled West Bank? I know the two regions are de jure a single State of Palestine but Gaza is de facto an independent state ruled by destructive extremists.

It doesn't make sense to me to hold the West Bank Palestinians accountable for the shit that goes down in the Gaza Strip.

 

[Sarpedon]

You mean the war Hezbollah started in order to solidify their position in Lebanon? Why are you blaming Israel for this?

Because they did exactly what Hezbollah wanted, by invading and then failing to destroy Hezbollah, and succeeding in destroying Hezbollah's internal opposition. That's why I blame them. It was so obvious. Anti Syria and Anti Hezbollah demonstrations were becoming common in Lebanon. Israel should have done what it could to strengthen pro democracy forces there, instead of invading the country and having everyone rally against the invader.

You see, Israeli extremists need Hezbollah just like Hezbollah needs Israel. Peace and democracy is a threat to them, which is why both work so hard to undermine them.

I see no reason to think of Israel's war mongering parties any differently than I think of the terrorist groups.

Further, Israel did not bother to inform its allies, either the United States, or Turkey, at the time. We both had citizens and interests in Lebanon, and the invasion without prior warning endangered them. I don't know why we in the USA tolerate an ally who blithely endangers our citizens, and I can't blame Turkey for not putting up with it. I am full of criticisms for Erdogan, but I believe he was perfectly correct in downgrading his relations with Israel as a result of this irresponsible and excessive action.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Why should they offer peace? Hits like "Dancing Queen" and "Mamma Mia" are the perfect weapon of mass destruction. They are obviously in a position of strength.

 

[Derec]

To get back to the title of this thread, Palestinians really don't want peace. Otherwise they would not issue a list of 7 demands to continue negotiations, demands they well know Israel can't agree to and which include release of terrorists, agreeing to 1967 borders (including East Jerusalem) and ending the siege of Gaza. All that before negotiations mind you!

 

[laughing dog]

To get back to the title of this thread, Palestinians really don't want peace. Otherwise they would not issue a list of 7 demands to continue negotiations, demands they well know Israel can't agree to and which include release of terrorists, agreeing to 1967 borders (including East Jerusalem) and ending the siege of Gaza. All that before negotiations mind you!

So, do you also agree that Israel really doesn't want peace since it issues demands that they know the representatives of the Palestinian people cannot agree to?