Abbas doesn't want a peace deal

[Underseer]

There ALWAYS IS A POINT TO PEACE TALKS...the desire of the people to live in peace. I pointed out that your source on this story was Abrams and he is a warmonger. He is telling us about what we are supposed to believe is happening in Abbas' brain. "Abbas doesn't want...." There is no way Abrams can know this. Abbas can only do what his people and Israeli domination will allow. I can't tell you what he "wants," except perhaps wanting to live a little longer. Abrams certainly cannot tell you. He is a military industrial talking point machine.

That's it, though.

The people in power don't want peace because it's a convenient way to distract the people from internal corruption. Jewish and Muslim politicians alike can always change the subject by talking about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. This is possible because the people themselves are full of hate for the other people. After all, god promised that land to them, not a bunch of infidels.

There are people in the Muslim and Jewish world who genuinely want peace, but they cannot penetrate the inherent hatefulness of their respective populations, and the people in power won't let go of it because the conflict is simply too useful as a means of covering up their own wrongdoing.

Most of the populace don't want peace. The people in power want peace even less.

Loren's dishonesty is in pretending that Israel is any different from the surrounding Muslim countries.

 

[Derec]

Strike that about the rockets from Gaza then. It should more accurately state that a lot of the rockets fired into Israel do not have warheads.

Qassams are the least sophisticated rocket in Palestinian terrorist arsenal and even they have at least a 5kg warhead. So what are these mysterious warheadless rockets that constitute "a lot of the rockets fired at Israel"?

The ones that do actually make it into Israeli space have such limited payload capacity that their destructive local impact is more used as a psychological weapon then a terror tactical weapon. Yet any rockets fired uncontrolled against civilian targets seems to be a desperate act of a desperate people.

You are kind of right about the "desperate" part but not in the way you intended. Palestinian terrorists are desperate to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible (bonus points for children). They used to use suicide bombers which were able to inflict many civilian casualties. This has become much more difficult due to the separation barrier and the Gaza blockade so the terrorist scumbags resort to firing rockets which are luckily far less effective than the suicide bombers were.

I think that the casualty tables speak for themselves vs v the deaths caused by rocket attack versus bomb/artillery attack.

No they do not because there is no moral or other equivalency between terrorists targeting civilians and the IDF targeting the terrorists.

More importantly Derec, and you are correct about the smuggled and or homemade rocket ordinance deployed by Palestinian militia groups against Israel, is to just look at the casualty tables for the IDF Cast Lead invasion/incursion into Gaza when that two face Obama got into the White House in 2008.

Two Face Obama? I am not sure if you are confusing him with Giancarlo Esposito or Aaron Eckhart.

At least the guys in Gaza fight back against over whelming odds against Israel unlike those bought off assholes crooks in the West Bank.

I.e. you support the terrorists and wish West Bankers would engage in terrorism as well? Did I get that right?

So to talk about how Abbas does not want peace is rather disingenuous. Yet is does sound good echoing the narrative about the evils of the Arab world and how Israel is the Fort Apache in the boondocks.

His insistence on the bogus "right of return" for grandchildren and greatgrandchildren of refugees shows he is not really serious about a peace agreement.

[quote[Cast Lead from 12/27/08 to 1/18/09 caused about 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed in Gaza compared to 13 Israelis killed. Of the 13 Israelis killed 4 were from friendly fire. Of the 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed about 330 were combatants, 760 to 920 were noncoms and 318 to 313 were children. [/quote]
Where do you get those numbers? Hamas? Not even you can seriously believe that only 330 of those killed in the Gaza War were combatants. And as to children, being under 18 does not necessarily make one a noncombatant.

So as we argue and share dialogue about logistical explosives, over a 1000, " 1000," people were killed in just those few days in Gaza. It was basically like shooting fish in a barrel. My point for you and Loren is where is the outcry from our fellow Americans? We see the outcry from the UN and across the globe but such little attention here in the states. Why is one human life worth more than another human life? All humans and especially noncom's and children lives should be treated equally and with respect to the international laws. And this includes both sides of the occupation/war.

What I see is that terrorists can attack Israel with nary an beep but as soon as Israel does anything to defend herself they get attacked and accused of "genocide" (fine genocide where the "genocided" population is increasing exponentially!) The 2008 Gaza War was started because of increased terrorist attacks from Gaza and because the Gazan terrorists were stockpiling rockets with longer range and larger warheads than the usual Qassams. Remember, Israel disengaged from Gaza only a few years before and they were rewarded for this by Gaza launching wave after wave of attacks against Israel. Rocket and mortar attacks increased from less than 300 in 2004 to 3700 in 2008. After Operation Cast Lead they decreased to less than 1000 before going up again to over 2000 in 2012 necessitating yet another incursion, albeit a much briefer one. See here. And of course, Israel was criticized for both these operations despite these being wholly caused by attacks from Gaza against Israel.

So I hate charts and links as it is my philosophy to not do other people's foot work for them. As I am sure that you had to site and source back in those school days as we all did.

I am still waiting on your sources about warheadless Palestinian rockets and only 330 combatants being killed during Cast Lead.

Since I paid my dues as you have one does not ever need to make stuff up; all the layers of information is out there. And for me one of the world's biggest lies is this whole two state solution BS that will never happen. It does not really matter since the Palestinian people will be made to suffer. There will never ever be a Palestinian state plain and simple.

Not as long as they persist in their terrorism and unreasonable demands about Israel admitting millions of descendents of refugees into Israel proper.

So please notice when the rocket activity commenced in relationship to the execution of operation Cast Lead and the corresponding election of the Obama administration.

Widespread rocket/mortar activity commenced after Israel withdrew from Gaza and abandoned all the settlements there. It increased gradually until 2008 when Israel was forced to act.

It should be fairly straight forward and clear. My point is that the killing of the 1000 plus Palestinians in 2008 was a message IMO to the new administration and the accompanying rocket/mortar attacks on Israel. It is rather pretty slick and well thought out and executed.

What is the message other than "we will not tolerate 1000s of rockets and mortars being fired at our country"? What other country would allow such attacks? Why is Israel the only country expected to?

WE are supposed to focus on the handful of Israeli deaths through the American media and chalk up the Palestinian deaths as just more dead Arabs. I mean it is pretty obvious IMO. So as not to beat a dead horse it is time to move on.

If there were no attacks against Israel, IDF would have no reason for defensive operations in Gaza. It's as easy as that.

Peace

Not as long as there are terrorists and their sympathizers.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Strike that about the rockets from Gaza then. It should more accurately state that a lot of the rockets fired into Israel do not have warheads. The ones that do actually make it into Israeli space have such limited payload capacity that their destructive local impact is more used as a psychological weapon then a terror tactical weapon.

Terrorist weapons are by definition primarily psychological weapons!

Yet any rockets fired uncontrolled against civilian targets seems to be a desperate act of a desperate people.

It's an evil act by an evil government.

I think that the casualty tables speak for themselves vs v the deaths caused by rocket attack versus bomb/artillery attack.

What is this, the Hunger Games where conflict is a sporting competition??

In the real world the death toll shows who is more capable, not who is right.

Cast Lead from 12/27/08 to 1/18/09 caused about 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed in Gaza compared to 13 Israelis killed. Of the 13 Israelis killed 4 were from friendly fire. Of the 1385 to 1417 Palestinians killed about 330 were combatants, 760 to 920 were noncoms and 318 to 313 were children.

Not even the terrorists agree with your figures. Over time many of those "non-combatants" have been listed as martyrs--something that only happens when they were combatants. It's just at first anyone who wasn't actively shooting is listed as a non-combatant.

Furthermore, your use of the term "children" is very misleading. The reality is that most of those are 16 & 17 year olds who put themselves in harm's way.

And you're not even considering how many of those were friendly fire. Palestinian rockets often fall short (sometimes as much as 50% of them landing in Gaza) and they're far more deadly when they do.

So as we argue and share dialogue about logistical explosives, over a 1000, " 1000," people were killed in just those few days in Gaza. It was basically like shooting fish in a barrel. My point for you and Loren is where is the outcry from our fellow Americans? We see the outcry from the UN and across the globe but such little attention here in the states. Why is one human life worth more than another human life? All humans and especially noncom's and children lives should be treated equally and with respect to the international laws. And this includes both sides of the occupation/war.

The Palestinian government goes to considerable lengths to get it's people killed. It's an outrage but the reality is that third world nations being bad to their people is very common. What should we do, invade Gaza??? Nuke Tehran???

So I hate charts and links as it is my philosophy to not do other people's foot work for them. As I am sure that you had to site and source back in those school days as we all did. Since I paid my dues as you have one does not ever need to make stuff up; all the layers of information is out there. And for me one of the world's biggest lies is this whole two state solution BS that will never happen. It does not really matter since the Palestinian people will be made to suffer. There will never ever be a Palestinian state plain and simple.

It would help if you actually had done your homework. You're repeating the terrorist PR, not the facts.

So please notice when the rocket activity commenced in relationship to the execution of operation Cast Lead and the corresponding election of the Obama administration. It should be fairly straight forward and clear. My point is that the killing of the 1000 plus Palestinians in 2008 was a message IMO to the new administration and the accompanying rocket/mortar attacks on Israel. It is rather pretty slick and well thought out and executed.

No. Those charts aren't detailed enough to show that the rocket barrage actually started with Operation Oil Stain. Cast Lead was a response to Oil Stain.

WE are supposed to focus on the handful of Israeli deaths through the American media and chalk up the Palestinian deaths as just more dead Arabs. I mean it is pretty obvious IMO. So as not to beat a dead horse it is time to move on.

If the Palestinians don't want to die they should stop their government from putting them in harm's way or even killing them.

- - - Updated - - -

There ALWAYS IS A POINT TO PEACE TALKS...the desire of the people to live in peace. I pointed out that your source on this story was Abrams and he is a warmonger. He is telling us about what we are supposed to believe is happening in Abbas' brain. "Abbas doesn't want...." There is no way Abrams can know this. Abbas can only do what his people and Israeli domination will allow. I can't tell you what he "wants," except perhaps wanting to live a little longer. Abrams certainly cannot tell you. He is a military industrial talking point machine.

A point to peace talks when Abbas specifically says they won't lead to peace?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/tv-report-abbas-said-no-to-obama-on-3-core-peace-issues/

- - - Updated - - -

Qassams are the least sophisticated rocket in Palestinian terrorist arsenal and even they have at least a 5kg warhead. So what are these mysterious warheadless rockets that constitute "a lot of the rockets fired at Israel"?

Perhaps they are duds.

Or perhaps he's counting rockets that do no damage as not having warheads. Never mind that that's usually because they fell where there was nothing to do damage to.

 

[pegasus8]

Oy Vey Man I Am Getting Tagged Team. What Is One To Do?

Well as I see it boys it is like this. Some could kill every Arab in Palestine and the Israelis and American War Hawks or is it chicken Hawks would still not be satisfied. I guess after so many 1000's of our fellow Americans have been KIA, blown up, horribly wounded in these "unnecessary wars" in the Middle East some also are still not satisfied with this "Holy War," both religiously, Judeo/Christian and ideologically, neo-liberalism. So after spending America's blood and treasure to go off and do Israel's dirty work for her, see Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, etc., vs v AIPAC, et al., it looks like some people are still not happy when some other people point out some obvious facts. You know like how come it is OK to kill 1000's of Palestinians because a handful of Israelis were killed? And as Loren has pointed out it is because " who is more capable not who is more right!" I actually like that saying Loren. I mean from a realistic Machavellian/ Clausewitz interpretation of the rules of war and international law the bottom line is that "might makes right." I actually believe this simple fact of life. And if Israel wants to build 20 foot concrete walls topped with barb wire and remotely controlled machine guns and call them "barriers " then she has that right. And who does not like criss crossing your homeland where you family lived for generations with raised concrete roads to these huge clusters of fortified homes called settlements? Well I guess it is cool as long as one does not go all "native " and side with those Arabs, er I mean Palestinians. Right guys?

So we can argue all day about weapons, logistics and so on and so forth. And since I have interviewed and talked to enough people on both sides of the fence, er I mean barrier and did oodles of research enough to exhaust any geek the evidence still points to grave injustices, possible war crimes on the IDF and Israel's militant leaders. What amazes me is that some Americans would never have a problem putting the interest of Israel over our country and our troops who have to go out in harms way and try to convince these pissed off Arabs that we our looking out for their interest. Well I guess looking out for their interest if that means supporting a country that practices ethnic apartheid, stealing the locals land, concentrating those locals in the highest human concentration of the planet on a thin strip of land totally cut off from the outside world and pretty much killing and beating their asses up ever so often and telling the world to "F" off we are protecting ourselves.

So maybe it would be better to riddle me this boys; how would you fight the tenth biggest military on the planet, depending on who intelligence you use, that had you completely surrounded both on land, in the air and on the sea? My point is that some here in America would never question the big bully's actions for many reasons, political, ideological, financial. I mean come on guys if an American Zionist like Sheldon Adelson can give millions to Newt Gingrich to go on Israeli TV and state with a straight face that the "Palestinian people are a made up people," then what chance in hell can the locals, the Palestinian people, to every be allowed by the occupier, Israel, in having their own sovereign country? And that chance would be a wink and a nod like a chance in water freezing over in hell.

So if you think that I just make this stuff up and pull these facts out of my ass like Madonna then oh well. Actually my passion for military history and ordinances has shown me to see that the IDF deploys some cutting edge weapons that are used on civilians under the guise of collateral damage and trying to get to the "bad guys." And I am not referring to the application of rude ordinances like WP on civilian targets. I am referring to rather sophisticated heavy metal warheads like Uranian and other like metals on the general population. And of course you are going to say prove it. Whether this is right or wrong is moot since this has been a de facto way of modern war, 4th generation, for the last 50 years.This is not rocket science. But it is cool because I must recognize and realize the the media narrative here in America is that all terrorist are Arabs and all acts of aggression against the Arabs are just another facet in the war on terrorism. And all people like that jack ass Abbas are in it for themselves and the money. You know just like the Junta in Egypt! And great example would be how people, Arabs, who fight against the IDF and Israel are terrorist or terrorist group XYZ yet terrorist who fight against people who we do not like, see Assad in Syria's war, are "Rebels!"

So to say that Abbas does not want peace may fit the media controlled narrative in America and Israel yet the reality is that the "occupiers " want the locals to suffer and suffer greatly through depravity, apartheid and out right humiliation. So keep up the good work guys and we both know that one Israeli life has got be worth at least 10-100-1000 Arabs lives. Who are we Americans, well not most of us, to tell Israel who to kill, how to kill and how to make Arab refugees? We have been occupying two Arab counties for years now and pretty much wiped out the largest industrial base in the Arab world on one and sent the other back into the stone age. All fighting the war on terror just like Israel right guys?

Oh and I see that no one wants to "cop" that in 2008 with the new Obama administration in that Israel just so happen to find it the right time
to invade and blow up some cities in Gaza. Nah just protecting itself right ?

Thanks guys and you got to love that uranium heavy metal cased ordinances. It is kind of like the wound that keeps on giving! You know kind of like that WP stuff! Oh and here is some people's heroes in action.







Well you get the point.

Peace man

Pegasus

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Well as I see it boys it is like this. Some could kill every Arab in Palestine and the Israelis and American War Hawks or is it chicken Hawks would still not be satisfied.

Get some glasses, your vision leaves a lot to be desired.

I guess after so many 1000's of our fellow Americans have been KIA, blown up, horribly wounded in these "unnecessary wars" in the Middle East some also are still not satisfied with this "Holy War," both religiously, Judeo/Christian and ideologically, neo-liberalism.

What you don't understand is that it's the Muslims that chose holy war. We either fight back or surrender.

You know like how come it is OK to kill 1000's of Palestinians because a handful of Israelis were killed? And as Loren has pointed out it is because " who is more capable not who is more right!" I actually like that saying Loren.

You still don't understand. The deaths should be blamed on the one that picked the fight. Two of you stick up a bank, the cops kill your partner--**YOU** go to jail on murder charges even if you didn't even have a gun.

So we can argue all day about weapons, logistics and so on and so forth. And since I have interviewed and talked to enough people on both sides of the fence, er I mean barrier and did oodles of research enough to exhaust any geek the evidence still points to grave injustices, possible war crimes on the IDF and Israel's militant leaders.

Since you repeat claims that not even the terrorists still hold to your "research" leaves a lot to be desired. It appears to be the initial PR claims of the terrorists.

What amazes me is that some Americans would never have a problem putting the interest of Israel over our country and our troops who have to go out in harms way and try to convince these pissed off Arabs that we our looking out for their interest. Well I guess looking out for their interest if that means supporting a country that practices ethnic apartheid, stealing the locals land, concentrating those locals in the highest human concentration of the planet on a thin strip of land totally cut off from the outside world and pretty much killing and beating their asses up ever so often and telling the world to "F" off we are protecting ourselves.

What actions are you referring to with our troops? Israel was not an issue in either Iraq (until Saddam attacked Israel in an effort to derail our alliance against him) or Afghanistan.

And you're repeating more propaganda. Gaza isn't the highest density area on the planet.

And have you noticed that the attacks on Gaza happen after Hamas attacks Israel?

I mean come on guys if an American Zionist like Sheldon Adelson can give millions to Newt Gingrich to go on Israeli TV and state with a straight face that the "Palestinian people are a made up people," then what chance in hell can the locals, the Palestinian people, to every be allowed by the occupier, Israel, in having their own sovereign country? And that chance would be a wink and a nod like a chance in water freezing over in hell.

1) Gaza isn't occupied by anybody's definition.

2) "Palestinian" is a made-up term. You won't find it before 48.

So if you think that I just make this stuff up and pull these facts out of my ass like Madonna then oh well. Actually my passion for military history and ordinances has shown me to see that the IDF deploys some cutting edge weapons that are used on civilians under the guise of collateral damage and trying to get to the "bad guys." And I am not referring to the application of rude ordinances like WP on civilian targets. I am referring to rather sophisticated heavy metal warheads like Uranian and other like metals on the general population.

What in the world are you talking about? I don't know what heavy metal warheads you are talking about, "Uranian" produces no reasonable hits on Google.

Perhaps what you are talking about is some warheads with metallic components which are specifically designed to minimize collateral damage. They are *NOT* heavy metals, though. They're designed to avoid shrapnel.

And of course you are going to say prove it. Whether this is right or wrong is moot since this has been a de facto way of modern war, 4th generation, for the last 50 years.This is not rocket science. But it is cool because I must recognize and realize the the media narrative here in America is that all terrorist are Arabs and all acts of aggression against the Arabs are just another facet in the war on terrorism.

Not all terrorists are Arabs. However, all substantial terrorist movements require major financial backing. Since Russia fell apart and got out of the terrorist business this basically means drugs or Islamists. Is it any wonder that most terrorists are Muslims?

And all people like that jack ass Abbas are in it for themselves and the money. You know just like the Junta in Egypt! And great example would be how people, Arabs, who fight against the IDF and Israel are terrorist or terrorist group XYZ yet terrorist who fight against people who we do not like, see Assad in Syria's war, are "Rebels!"

A lot of people on the left are not willing to see that the rebels in Syria are worse than Assad.

So to say that Abbas does not want peace may fit the media controlled narrative in America and Israel yet the reality is that the "occupiers " want the locals to suffer and suffer greatly through depravity, apartheid and out right humiliation.

Did you not watch that clip? Abbas says he won't actually make peace.

Oh and I see that no one wants to "cop" that in 2008 with the new Obama administration in that Israel just so happen to find it the right time
to invade and blow up some cities in Gaza. Nah just protecting itself right ?

You still haven't addressed Operation Oil Stain.

Thanks guys and you got to love that uranium heavy metal cased ordinances. It is kind of like the wound that keeps on giving! You know kind of like that WP stuff! Oh and here is some people's heroes in action.

Again, you're reading crap. The only uranium-cased weapons are atomic bombs. Uranium serves no other use in the casing of a weapon.

The use of uranium in conventional weapons is for piercing armor. A big uranium bullet is the best penetrator out there and thus it's used in tank-killer weapons and the Phalanx anti-missile system. Since the Palestinians have no tanks there would be very little reason for Israel to fire such weapons at them and the Phalanx isn't fired at the ground anyway. While a DU penetrator is very effective against enemy tanks it's likely to simply go right through a soft target without doing much damage at all. If you're not shooting at something tough you load explosive rounds instead.

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Well you get the point.

Yeah, I get your point--propaganda rather than facts.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, I get your point--propaganda rather than facts.

That one broke the irony meters across the galaxy.

 

[pegasus8]

Eh Kettle Meet Stove.

I like the way some here accuse me of "propaganda" and then turn around and say with a straight face that the 2008 Gaza assault was merely a " Israeli Defense" action. But heh anyone can have their opinions; your's or mine. OK. But then when we get in the areas of facts then most people know that basically people should not be allowed to have and make up their facts. But if it fits their narrative then more power to them.
You know like this made up BS narrative that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians to have their own state/country. For those of us in the real world of facts this two state solution will never happen. As long a Israel has Carte Blanche in doing whatever she wants or feels like then there is no way in hell that she will ever, EVER!, return the lands she stole, er won, in the occupied territories. All this BS about peace talks are just smoke screens as is all the usual BS about "defending " herself by killing 1000's of people. And by 1000's we mean mostly noncoms.

As an added special bonus Israel has been deploying new kinds munitions on the people in Gaza and also in the Lebanon 2006 invasion. You guys all remember the 2006 invasion of Lebanon when the IDF got its nose bloodied and then proceeded to blow up every thing worth while in Lebanon's infrastructure. What is interesting is that we have been getting reports from doctors treating the wounded with theses new kinds of wounds never before seen. Please just simply Google Dense Inert Metal Explosives, DIME and see what pops up. These kinds of ordinances were developed by us of course and given to the IDF to use on their " defensive " operation while wiping out buildings and neighborhoods in Lebanon and Gaza. I am not an expert on the latest military ordinances yet I can understand that these kinds of heavy metal technologies employ the use of uranium, tungsten, etc.

The sad part in all this mess is that quite a few of Israeli citizens see this war against her neighbors as a perpetual was. You know like the war on terror. They also see that the small minority conservative factions in their government and also America's seem to be all hell bent on sable rattling, blowing places and people up, invading other people's homelands and pretty much acting like Assholes. So there is a movement in Israel that would like to give peace a chance. A by peace we are not talking about practicing this ethnic apartheid policy of start sponsored terror.

So with Hamas bottled up in Gaza and the continued construction of apartments, houses and condos in the occupied territories and West bank who really cares what stooges like Abbas think or say? I am surprised that they do not go and off him like they did that hairy idiot Arab Arafat.

Again with this coconut shell game called the "peace talks" and the "two state solution," which we hear constantly in the media and even here bottom line this will NEVER EVER HAPPEN. Israel will never pull out of the occupied areas. NEVER. All this talk is just smoke screens and good PR for the media in convincing the masses that Israel has good will in seeking peace and a two state solution. Yet this is not to excuse those in Hamas and Hezbollah, et al., in provoking her powerful neighbor Israel in these state sponsored attacks on civilian populations. One can only imagine seeing your home getting blown to smithereens and or having WP being dropped from helicopters onto your neighborhoods all under the this guise of defensive action as being some kind of horrible state sponsored retribution.

Oh and in the mean time we can kill some more noncoms and get the American public ready for bombing Israel's new arch enemy, Iran. I hear that those Iranians have been developing the "bomb" for the last 20 years! Oh well there is a lot of money to be made in this war game stuff. Heck in the mean time we can continue to blame Abbas and those Palestinians who are supposed to not even be Palestinians. See is not this game fun. You know how we are always the good guys and have God on our side.

Thanks Loren and peace brother

Pegasus

 

[Derec]

I like the way some here accuse me of "propaganda" and then turn around and say with a straight face that the 2008 Gaza assault was merely a " Israeli Defense" action.

As opposed to what exactly?

You know like this made up BS narrative that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians to have their own state/country.

It is Palestinians that refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. It is Palestinians that demand they demographically overwhelm Israeli population with the phony "right of return".

For those of us in the real world of facts this two state solution will never happen.

Well not anytime soon. But what is the alternative?

As long a Israel has Carte Blanche in doing whatever she wants or feels like then there is no way in hell that she will ever, EVER!, return the lands she stole, er won, in the occupied territories.

Israel definitely doesn't have a "carte blanche". Every time there is an IDF operation they are under extreme pressure to end it before the job is done completely. Of course the Palestinian terrorists use all cease fires merely to regroup and rearm.

All this BS about peace talks are just smoke screens as is all the usual BS about "defending " herself by killing 1000's of people. And by 1000's we mean mostly noncoms.

The 2008 Gaza War was over 5 years ago. Since then there has been no large scale incursion into Gaza despite continued firing of thousands of rockets and mortars into Israel which would certainly give Israel both a legal and moral justification to go back in. Also you have shown no evidence that the majority of the dead during the 2008 operation were noncombatants.

As an added special bonus Israel has been deploying new kinds munitions on the people in Gaza and also in the Lebanon 2006 invasion. You guys all remember the 2006 invasion of Lebanon when the IDF got its nose bloodied and then proceeded to blow up every thing worth while in Lebanon's infrastructure

You remember the reason for the 2006 operation against Hezbollah? Could it be because they, under orders from their Persian masters, were attacking Israel?

What is interesting is that we have been getting reports from doctors treating the wounded with theses new kinds of wounds never before seen. Please just simply Google Dense Inert Metal Explosives, DIME and see what pops up.

What pops up is that it is an experimental explosive designed to reduce collateral damage (the devils!) What also pops up is unsubstantiated claims by known antisemites like Mads Gilbert that the munitions were actually used and that they cause "new kinds of wounds".
Of course DIME has nothing whatsoever to do with depleted uranium perpetrators you obliquely mentioned before.

I am not an expert on the latest military ordinances yet I can understand that these kinds of heavy metal technologies employ the use of uranium, tungsten, etc.

They use tungsten, but again there is no evidence they were actually deployed other than claims by those that oppose Israel anyway.

|So with Hamas bottled up in Gaza and the continued construction of apartments, houses and condos in the occupied territories and West bank who really cares what stooges like Abbas think or say? I am surprised that they do not go and off him like they did that hairy idiot Arab Arafat.

They (Palestinians) would most likely off him if he dared work toward an actual peace. So he stays with demanding the phony "right of return" which he knows Israel will and can not accept and feigning outrage every time IDF kills a terrorist or three.

Again with this coconut shell game called the "peace talks" and the "two state solution," which we hear constantly in the media and even here bottom line this will NEVER EVER HAPPEN. Israel will never pull out of the occupied areas. NEVER.

They already pulled out of Gaza. They previously pulled out of Sinai in exchange for a peace treaty with Egypt even though them pulling out of Sinai before cost them a buffer zone that would have been useful in 1973. So Israel has proven their good will. When will Palestinians prove they are capable of holding up their end of the deal, i.e. end terrorism and accept Israel as a Jewish state?

All this talk is just smoke screens and good PR for the media in convincing the masses that Israel has good will in seeking peace and a two state solution.

Unlike Palestinians, Israel has repeatedly proven their good will.

Yet this is not to excuse those in Hamas and Hezbollah, et al., in provoking her powerful neighbor Israel in these state sponsored attacks on civilian populations.

No? Your previous posts surely sounded like just that. Putting "bad guys" in scare quotes. Saying "what else can they do" (other than terrorism) etc.

One can only imagine seeing your home getting blown to smithereens and or having WP being dropped from helicopters onto your neighborhoods all under the this guise of defensive action as being some kind of horrible state sponsored retribution.

If your home is being blown to smithereens because a terrorist lives there or because it was used to shoot rockets from or because a Palestinian rocket fell short and failed to clear the border that is really in no way Israel's fault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I like the way some here accuse me of "propaganda" and then turn around and say with a straight face that the 2008 Gaza assault was merely a " Israeli Defense" action.

It's easy to state the truth with a straight face. I gave you what you needed to look it up. Even Wikipedia has a few words about it.

But heh anyone can have their opinions; your's or mine. OK. But then when we get in the areas of facts then most people know that basically people should not be allowed to have and make up their facts. But if it fits their narrative then more power to them.

I gave you the facts including what was needed to verify them. You appear not to have done so.

You know like this made up BS narrative that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians to have their own state/country. For those of us in the real world of facts this two state solution will never happen.

Israel expected the Palestinians to form a state in 1948. It was the Arabs that prevented it.

As long a Israel has Carte Blanche in doing whatever she wants or feels like then there is no way in hell that she will ever, EVER!, return the lands she stole, er won, in the occupied territories. All this BS about peace talks are just smoke screens as is all the usual BS about "defending " herself by killing 1000's of people. And by 1000's we mean mostly noncoms.

Israel's record at picking out combatants hiding amongst civilians is second to none.

As an added special bonus Israel has been deploying new kinds munitions on the people in Gaza and also in the Lebanon 2006 invasion.

New munitions--as in things designed to minimize collateral damage. We are working on the sort of stuff they developed a decade ago.

You guys all remember the 2006 invasion of Lebanon when the IDF got its nose bloodied and then proceeded to blow up every thing worth while in Lebanon's infrastructure. What is interesting is that we have been getting reports from doctors treating the wounded with theses new kinds of wounds never before seen. Please just simply Google Dense Inert Metal Explosives, DIME and see what pops up. These kinds of ordinances were developed by us of course and given to the IDF to use on their " defensive " operation while wiping out buildings and neighborhoods in Lebanon and Gaza. I am not an expert on the latest military ordinances yet I can understand that these kinds of heavy metal technologies employ the use of uranium, tungsten, etc.

The DIME warheads are about minimizing collateral damage. Devastating at the point of impact but they don't throw much shrapnel.

The sad part in all this mess is that quite a few of Israeli citizens see this war against her neighbors as a perpetual was. You know like the war on terror.

They are because the Islamists won't accept anything less than total victory.

Again with this coconut shell game called the "peace talks" and the "two state solution," which we hear constantly in the media and even here bottom line this will NEVER EVER HAPPEN.

Of course it won't, as I've shown Abbas isn't interested.

Israel will never pull out of the occupied areas. NEVER.

Remember that the Palestinians define Israel itself as occupied territory.

Oh and in the mean time we can kill some more noncoms and get the American public ready for bombing Israel's new arch enemy, Iran. I hear that those Iranians have been developing the "bomb" for the last 20 years! Oh well there is a lot of money to be made in this war game stuff. Heck in the mean time we can continue to blame Abbas and those Palestinians who are supposed to not even be Palestinians. See is not this game fun. You know how we are always the good guys and have God on our side.

Iran has made their intentions very clear. I don't want to wake up to a mushroom cloud. Apparently you would prefer to stick your head in the sand until the blast wave blows your ass away.

 

[Sarpedon]

Remember the time an Israeli Prime Minister signed a peace treaty with the Palestinians, and the other Israelis murdered him?

And ever since then, they've been saying its the Palestinians who don't want peace?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Remember the time an Israeli Prime Minister signed a peace treaty with the Palestinians, and the other Israelis murdered him?

And ever since then, they've been saying its the Palestinians who don't want peace?

What's that got to do with it?

Abbas admits that he has no intention of actually delivering peace--if he signs the "peace" agreement they'll keep fighting anyway.


What he wants is the world to pressure Israel into unilateral concessions in an effort to bring peace.

 

[laughing dog]

What's that got to do with it?

Abbas admits that he has no intention of actually delivering peace--if he signs the "peace" agreement they'll keep fighting anyway.


What he wants is the world to pressure Israel into unilateral concessions in an effort to bring peace.

And Bebe has no intention of deliverying peace either. He also wants the world to either pressue the Palestinians or ignore them into unilateral concessions in an effort to bring peace.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And Bebe has no intention of deliverying peace either. He also wants the world to either pressue the Palestinians or ignore them into unilateral concessions in an effort to bring peace.

Who always ends up making the concessions? Israel. The Palestinians never follow through.

We just had another round of this--prisoner releases for peace talks. Israel released prisoners, the Palestinians didn't actually talk. They've quit the prisoner releases, the world will no doubt blame them for not following through and will ignore the fact the Palestinians didn't follow through.

 

[laughing dog]

Who always ends up making the concessions? Israel. The Palestinians never follow through.

Factually untrue.

We just had another round of this--prisoner releases for peace talks. Israel released prisoners, the Palestinians didn't actually talk. They've quit the prisoner releases, the world will no doubt blame them for not following through and will ignore the fact the Palestinians didn't follow through.

Are you referring to this - Israel delays prisoner release due for Saturday night ? Because it rebuts your entire premise.

 

[arkirk]

Factually untrue.
Are you referring to this - Israel delays prisoner release due for Saturday night ? Because it rebuts your entire premise.

Loren: You speak of Abbas as if he were some type of automaton you understand completely. You pretend to know his thoughts. I have already questioned you on this and your answer has not been sufficient. Again, let me be clear. You have no way of knowing what is inside Abbas' head. I will admit I don't know.

The problem is that Palestinian society is so fractured and isolated, there is no way for anybody to speak for all of them. Lacking unanimity in that society, I feel Abbas' actions are entirely rational and aimed at an end point that would give Palestinians a better life. Abbas has no obligation to Israel whatever. Our country should also stop acting obligated to Israel. Clearly, for there to be peace at any time in the future in Palestine, Israel will have to stop a lot of what it has been doing and undo some things like the "separation wall." Examples...stop stealing their water, stop destroying their farms, stop bulldozing their homes, stop blockading their borders, remove their offending settlements, stop limiting their internal commerce.

I can only say, Mr. Netanyahu, tear down this wall!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Factually untrue.

Where have the Palestinians followed through on the concessions they have offered???

Are you referring to this - Israel delays prisoner release due for Saturday night ? Because it rebuts your entire premise.

No, it just shows that I'm right. You're blaming Israel because they got tired of the Palestinians not following through as usual.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren: You speak of Abbas as if he were some type of automaton you understand completely. You pretend to know his thoughts. I have already questioned you on this and your answer has not been sufficient. Again, let me be clear. You have no way of knowing what is inside Abbas' head. I will admit I don't know.

The problem is that Palestinian society is so fractured and isolated, there is no way for anybody to speak for all of them. Lacking unanimity in that society, I feel Abbas' actions are entirely rational and aimed at an end point that would give Palestinians a better life. Abbas has no obligation to Israel whatever. Our country should also stop acting obligated to Israel. Clearly, for there to be peace at any time in the future in Palestine, Israel will have to stop a lot of what it has been doing and undo some things like the "separation wall." Examples...stop stealing their water, stop destroying their farms, stop bulldozing their homes, stop blockading their borders, remove their offending settlements, stop limiting their internal commerce.

I can only say, Mr. Netanyahu, tear down this wall!

You are in effect saying that peace is impossible. The corollary is that Israel should quit trying.

And of course the attacks are on the wall--the thing that actually works at cutting down the violence. Notice how much less violence there has been since it was built?

 

[laughing dog]

Where have the Palestinians followed through on the concessions they have offered???

How about the Oslo Peace Accords? How about the reduction in violence in the West Bank?

No, it just shows that I'm right. You're blaming Israel because they got tired of the Palestinians not following through as usual.

I am showing that your claims about reality are factually untrue - I am not assessing blame on anyone. The article says the Israeli gov't is reneging on its promise. It does not indicate the reason for their hesitance to keep their promise is that Abbas is not keeping his word.

My point in this thread is that neither side really wishes peace so that blaming one side (whichever side that is) indicates one's biases and nothing about reality.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

How about the Oslo Peace Accords? How about the reduction in violence in the West Bank?

I asked for concessions they actually made, not merely promises.

I am showing that your claims about reality are factually untrue - I am not assessing blame on anyone. The article says the Israeli gov't is reneging on its promise. It does not indicate the reason for their hesitance to keep their promise is that Abbas is not keeping his word.

My point in this thread is that neither side really wishes peace so that blaming one side (whichever side that is) indicates one's biases and nothing about reality.

Just because it doesn't specifically state that it was because Abbas didn't keep his word that doesn't change what happened. The agreement was prisoner releases for peace talks. Israel complied, the Palestinians didn't, eventually Israel quit. And as always Israel gets blamed.

 

[laughing dog]

I asked for concessions they actually made, not merely promises.

You appear totally unfamiliar with the history of the region. Here is but one concession ( Israel–Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition)

Just because it doesn't specifically state that it was because Abbas didn't keep his word that doesn't change what happened. The agreement was prisoner releases for peace talks. Israel complied, the Palestinians didn't, eventually Israel quit. And as always Israel gets blamed.

No, Israel did not comply,and I have no idea why you continue to focus on some "blame game".

Your response is based entirely on counter-factual claims about reality: assumptions that were easily verifiable by anyone who actually cares to know what they are actually talking about.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You appear totally unfamiliar with the history of the region. Here is but one concession ( Israel–Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition )

Yeah, he wrote those letters. Strangely enough, though, the charter was never changed.

And how about some actual doing rather than just words? That's what's really missing.

No, Israel did not comply,and I have no idea why you continue to focus on some "blame game".

Your response is based entirely on counter-factual claims about reality: assumptions that were easily verifiable by anyone who actually cares to know what they are actually talking about.

They did multiple rounds of prisoner releases and got nothing for it. What am I saying that's false?