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About Knowledge, Truth and Falsity

Juma said:
Juma said:
No, thoughts are symbols, just as words and signs. Meaning is something else.
Meaning is created by each one when interpreting the surrounding world.
You create meaning when you interpretate your surrounding world.

And yes, thoughts are symbols. They are bearers of meaning.
There are only symbols. It the handling of those symbols that create meaning.
Let me try to decypher. Thoughts are used as symbols, therefore they stand for something else. We combine thoughts to produce meaning, which may or may not refer to something real. Is that what you mean? So thoughts are to our mind broadly like words are to language. We combine thoughts to produce meaning like we combine words to make meaningful sentences?


Me I would use "idea" rather than "thought": Ideas are the symbols used within the thinking process. The meaning of an idea is set by its relation to other ideas, feelings, emotions, percepts, memory, etc. A thought is the process of combining existing (memorised) ideas to form (usually) new and more complex ideas. The meaning of a thought derives from the meanings of its component ideas.
EB
 
Juma said:
Juma said:
No, thoughts are symbols, just as words and signs. Meaning is something else.
Meaning is created by each one when interpreting the surrounding world.
You create meaning when you interpretate your surrounding world.

And yes, thoughts are symbols. They are bearers of meaning.
There are only symbols. It the handling of those symbols that create meaning.
Let me try to decypher. Thoughts are used as symbols, therefore they stand for something else. We combine thoughts to produce meaning, which may or may not refer to something real. Is that what you mean? So thoughts are to our mind broadly like words are to language. We combine thoughts to produce meaning like we combine words to make meaningful sentences?


Me I would use "idea" rather than "thought": Ideas are the symbols used within the thinking process. The meaning of an idea is set by its relation to other ideas, feelings, emotions, percepts, memory, etc. A thought is the process of combining existing (memorised) ideas to form (usually) new and more complex ideas. The meaning of a thought derives from the meanings of its component ideas.
EB

Somewhat. But I would call the process "thinking" and thought a percept of the process.
 
Somewhat. But I would call the process "thinking" and thought a percept of the process.
Why not. I think it was Locke who thought of the mind as a kind of perception of our ideas and thoughts.

I like this idea but there may be a problem with it that a thought may not work like any percept at all. A percept is basically some process or state of the brain that is understood somehow as corresponding to some fact outside the brain. According to you, a thought would be a percept corresponding to some state or process inside the brain. So you may have percepts corresponding to things like a house or the sun because you are currently perceiving them. Would you say those are thoughts too? Or are thoughts percepts that are larger than percepts associated with facts outside the brain? So some percepts (thoughts) would encompass others (vision percepts, hearing percepts etc.)?

And then a memory would also be called a percept?
EB
 
If words are used to refer, it is inaccurate to say that words refer. They don't and I don't even see how they possibly could. The notion that words refer is only a short cut and it is misleading to claim it's accurate.
Whether I roll a rock down a hill or whether an earthquake causes a rock to roll down a hill, it's true that the rock is rolling.

Consider, now, my rolling a marble across a tabletop. There may be this mistaken thought at play that there's an implication that it's false the marble is rolling since not things but rather people (and able-bodied conscious entities--animals, insects, etc) do things. When language misleads us to think there's an implication, we should make sure it's not just suggestive. In logic, we must be mindful of the difference between an implication and suggestion. Saying I don't like black people suggests I'm prejudice, but it doesn't imply that I am, as I may not like white people either.

Words denote meaning. Of course, it's true that we use words to denote meaning, but that truth (seemingly and suggestively more accurate) does not therefore make it false that words denote meaning. To say it does may suggest that it's the word and not the person doing something, but the implication, I submit, is absent. We must consider the possibility that nonconscious entities do things. That word, "do" can be tricky. Trees grow. Is the tree doing something? You may want to argue that it's not doing something but rather something is happening to them. Fair enough, but what about the tires on the upside down car after crashing? The tires are spinning. No, that's not shorthand for someone turned their vehicle over causing the tires to spin, true as that may be. Tires do spin. To say as much may in your mind suggest something, but in absence of that implication, we should accept that the word, "do" does not invoke conscious action on part of an inanimate object.

Words refer. Yes, they do. That's one reason we have something called referring terms. The truth that people may intentionally use a term to refer is wholly irrelevant as to whether they do.

Talented little fellows? No! To say they do may suggest they are, but they aren't. Why say they do? Because it's true they do. How, if they (words themselves) are incapable of thought? That's where understanding language comes in. We shouldn't be taken in by the mistaken thought that saying such things implies the things one may think.
 
Sorry I don't get what your point is exactly.
EB
 
... there's a match between the proposition and the fact.
I want to know more about what makes this match a match.

If you look at it objectively or from a really alien alien's perspective, there is just everything interacting with everything else locally. But somewhere in all of the chaos, there seems to be something different about the "link" that matches the sentence "The cat is on the mat." to the actual event. The alien just sees the physicalness of the situation. But we know the physicalness of the situation and something else. What is this?

words exist to describe and communicate ideas. They represent objects, both abstract and material, as well as actions and feelings... Ideas can be true or false (or perhaps neither). When a series of words expresses an idea that does not match objective reality, then that expression of words is called "false".

"The cat is on the mat".... is there a mat upon which the referenced cat presently exists?
 
Sorry I don't get what your point is exactly.
EB

I think he is saying that words are imprecise. Someone hung up on precision might interpret that when something is "doing something" (i.e. some kind of change, in relationship to the referent, is happening), that it could be interpreted as "the object has free will and desires to accomplish a goal, and that is in progress".
I never met someone as autistic as that... but hey, there are all kinds of crazy out there.
 
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