About to embark on a 30-day trial of meat and water

[PyramidHead]

Following some discussion in the plant-based foods thread, and some research of my own, I'm going to try eating a purely carnivorous diet for a month. The idea behind it is to simply eat only meat and drink only water. "Meat" just means animal-sourced food and can contain:

Beef
Steaks such as ribeye, sirloin, strip, and chuck eye
Short ribs
Roasts such as prime rib, chuck, brisket
Ground beef or strips of beef for stir-fries
Organs such as liver and heart
Marrow bones
Lamb
Ribs
Chops
Shank

Pork
Shoulder or butt roasts
Baby back ribs, spare ribs
Shoulder chops
Pork belly
Poultry
Wings
Thighs and drumsticks
Breast is typically too lean, except for goose and duck.

Fish and shellfish
Salmon
Trout
Mackerel
Sardines
Oysters
Mussels
Crab
Lobster
Shrimp
Scallops

Eggs
Chicken
Duck
Roe

All of which can be eaten with or without salt, butter, or tallow. Bone broth can also be consumed.

This is, for me, a huge shift. I eat lots and lots of sugar and starch every day, and drink plenty of beer. But I love meat, and I'm looking forward to using the money I'll save from snacks and alcohol to enjoy some nice cuts on a daily basis. According to the testimonials and some scattered (but not conclusive) research, this diet is healthy and nutritionally complete. My plan is to get a sense of what's easy to prepare, tasty, keeps well, and is relatively inexpensive, and then stock up on it the next time I go grocery shopping.

If nothing else, this will be kind of a reset for my system, to purge all the junk I've been eating and drinking. After the 30 days, I can decide whether I want to continue eating this way indefinitely (as many do) or tweak it a little for convenience and comfort. I'll update this thread with any interesting observations, and with general progress throughout the duration of the diet.

 

[Val]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

 

[Subsymbolic]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

Or eating rather a lot of very fresh liver uncooked. Works for the eskimos.

 

[Playball40]

I could totally do this.

Following some discussion in the plant-based foods thread, and some research of my own, I'm going to try eating a purely carnivorous diet for a month. The idea behind it is to simply eat only meat and drink only water. "Meat" just means animal-sourced food and can contain:

Beef
Steaks such as ribeye, sirloin, strip, and chuck eye
Short ribs
Roasts such as prime rib, chuck, brisket
Ground beef or strips of beef for stir-fries
Organs such as liver and heart
Marrow bones
Lamb
Ribs
Chops
Shank

Pork
Shoulder or butt roasts
Baby back ribs, spare ribs
Shoulder chops
Pork belly
Poultry
Wings
Thighs and drumsticks
Breast is typically too lean, except for goose and duck.

Fish and shellfish
Salmon
Trout
Mackerel
Sardines
Oysters
Mussels
Crab
Lobster
Shrimp
Scallops

Eggs
Chicken
Duck
Roe

All of which can be eaten with or without salt, butter, or tallow. Bone broth can also be consumed.

This is, for me, a huge shift. I eat lots and lots of sugar and starch every day, and drink plenty of beer. But I love meat, and I'm looking forward to using the money I'll save from snacks and alcohol to enjoy some nice cuts on a daily basis. According to the testimonials and some scattered (but not conclusive) research, this diet is healthy and nutritionally complete. My plan is to get a sense of what's easy to prepare, tasty, keeps well, and is relatively inexpensive, and then stock up on it the next time I go grocery shopping.

If nothing else, this will be kind of a reset for my system, to purge all the junk I've been eating and drinking. After the 30 days, I can decide whether I want to continue eating this way indefinitely (as many do) or tweak it a little for convenience and comfort. I'll update this thread with any interesting observations, and with general progress throughout the duration of the diet.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

Or eating rather a lot of very fresh liver uncooked. Works for the eskimos.

I was going to suggest that. Or perhaps supplement.

If salt and the hundreds of other modern additives that are in meat and meat products are being permitted, I'd think another supplement is allowable.

Will any of the strictly animal products be consumed raw or unprocessed?

ETA: I see the writer at the link does indeed use supplements. Interesting.

 

[PyramidHead]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

That's a common misconception. As it turns out, the body's need for vitamin C is completely dependent on how much sugar is in one's diet. This is because it actively competes with glucose in the body:

The vitamin-C molecule is similar in configuration to glucose and other sugars in the body… It is shuttled from the bloodstream into the cells by the same insulin-dependent transport system used by glucose… Glucose and vitamin C compete in this cellular-uptake process, like strangers trying to flag down the same taxicab simultaneously. Because glucose is greatly favored in the contest, the uptake of vitamin C by cells is “globally inhibited” when blood-sugar levels are elevated… In effect, glucose regulates how much vitamin C is taken up by the cells, according to the University of Massachusetts nutritionist John Cunningham. If we increase blood-sugar levels, the cellular uptake of vitamin C-will drop accordingly… Glucose also impairs the re-absorption of vitamin C by the kidney, and so, the higher the blood sugar, the more vitamin-C will be lost in the urine. Infusing insulin into experimental subjects has been shown to cause a “marked fall” in vitamin-C levels in the circulation.

For this reason, the small amount of vitamin C contained in meat is more than enough for adequate nutrition, certainly more than enough to prevent scurvy. Incidentally, the only reason sailors succumbed to scurvy on long trips was because the process of treating meat for long-term preservation (drying and salting) destroys the vitamin C it contains.

 

[PyramidHead]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

Or eating rather a lot of very fresh liver uncooked. Works for the eskimos.

I was going to suggest that. Or perhaps supplement.

If salt and the hundreds of other modern additives that are in meat and meat products are being permitted, I'd think another supplement is allowable.

Will any of the strictly animal products be consumed raw or unprocessed?

ETA: I see the writer at the link does indeed use supplements. Interesting.

The advice is to move as far as possible away from the processed or factory-farmed meat that is ordinarily served, and to favor e.g. grass-fed beef over corn-fed beef.

What supplements does the blogger use? I noticed she mentioned that some do better with magnesium/potassium supplements, but I didn't see anything about what she herself took.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I was going to suggest that. Or perhaps supplement.

If salt and the hundreds of other modern additives that are in meat and meat products are being permitted, I'd think another supplement is allowable.

Will any of the strictly animal products be consumed raw or unprocessed?

ETA: I see the writer at the link does indeed use supplements. Interesting.

The advice is to move as far as possible away from the processed or factory-farmed meat that is ordinarily served, and to favor e.g. grass-fed beef over corn-fed beef.

What supplements does the blogger use? I noticed she mentioned that some do better with magnesium/potassium supplements, but I didn't see anything about what she herself took.

Oh. Perhaps I misunderstood. My mistake then.

In any case I wish you the best. My diet works for me and it contains little flesh.

More generally, people use the word "healthy" to describe lots of different personal preferences, proven and not. To me the word would have to mean free of pain, disease, drugs and the costs of medical intervention. Some might equate healthy with living this way until they are 45 and then dropping dead of a heart attack. Kudos for them. Some might describe healthy as just remaining alive in a care home playing bridge and never getting outside. Kudos to them as well.

It depends on what a person wants. I know lots of men my age who swallow a handful of prescription "maintenance" drugs everyday and consider themselves "healthy." I do not consider that healthy because it is costly. So to each his own.

 

[bilby]

Following some discussion in the plant-based foods thread, and some research of my own, I'm going to try eating a purely carnivorous diet for a month. The idea behind it is to simply eat only meat and drink only water. "Meat" just means animal-sourced food and can contain:

Beef
Steaks such as ribeye, sirloin, strip, and chuck eye
Short ribs
Roasts such as prime rib, chuck, brisket
Ground beef or strips of beef for stir-fries
Organs such as liver and heart
Marrow bones
Lamb
Ribs
Chops
Shank

Pork
Shoulder or butt roasts
Baby back ribs, spare ribs
Shoulder chops
Pork belly
Poultry
Wings
Thighs and drumsticks
Breast is typically too lean, except for goose and duck.

Fish and shellfish
Salmon
Trout
Mackerel
Sardines
Oysters
Mussels
Crab
Lobster
Shrimp
Scallops

Eggs
Chicken
Duck
Roe

All of which can be eaten with or without salt, butter, or tallow. Bone broth can also be consumed.

This is, for me, a huge shift. I eat lots and lots of sugar and starch every day, and drink plenty of beer. But I love meat, and I'm looking forward to using the money I'll save from snacks and alcohol to enjoy some nice cuts on a daily basis. According to the testimonials and some scattered (but not conclusive) research, this diet is healthy and nutritionally complete. My plan is to get a sense of what's easy to prepare, tasty, keeps well, and is relatively inexpensive, and then stock up on it the next time I go grocery shopping.

If nothing else, this will be kind of a reset for my system, to purge all the junk I've been eating and drinking. After the 30 days, I can decide whether I want to continue eating this way indefinitely (as many do) or tweak it a little for convenience and comfort. I'll update this thread with any interesting observations, and with general progress throughout the duration of the diet.

I reckon it's pretty difficult to find a butcher who sells pork wings.

Proverbially difficult, even.

In a more serious note, I would be interested to know whether milk and dairy products are included. And I would expect that quite a lot of offal (and not just from beef) and blood pudding would be needful, in order to get enough trace nutrients.

 

[PyramidHead]

I reckon it's pretty difficult to find a butcher who sells pork wings.

Proverbially difficult, even.

When pigs fly, you mean? Well, I guess I should have underlined "poultry" and inserted a line break, my mistake!

In a more serious note, I would be interested to know whether milk and dairy products are included.

The only ones that are sometimes added are those that do not contain sugars, like hard cheese, heavy cream, and kefir. But many people don't bother with milk at all. Depending on whether you consider eggs dairy, they are also commonly included and are chock full of nutrients, but again it depends on each individual's preference. The Andersen family has been eating nothing but ribeye steaks and water every day for decades.

And I would expect that quite a lot of offal (and not just from beef) and blood pudding would be needful, in order to get enough trace nutrients.

Which trace nutrients did you have in mind, and what are you using as an indicator for "enough"?

 

[bilby]

When pigs fly, you mean? Well, I guess I should have underlined "poultry" and inserted a line break, my mistake!



The only ones that are sometimes added are those that do not contain sugars, like hard cheese, heavy cream, and kefir. But many people don't bother with milk at all. Depending on whether you consider eggs dairy, they are also commonly included and are chock full of nutrients, but again it depends on each individual's preference. The Andersen family has been eating nothing but ribeye steaks and water every day for decades.

And I would expect that quite a lot of offal (and not just from beef) and blood pudding would be needful, in order to get enough trace nutrients.

Which trace nutrients did you have in mind, and what are you using as an indicator for "enough"?

Vitamins; particularly the non-fat soluble ones (B group and C), and sufficient to avoid deficiency diseases.

I am highly skeptical that this diet contains adequate Vitamin C. Glucose can inhibit ascorbate uptake in the small intestine to a small degree, but that effect is far from significant in a typical diet, and relying on the low glucose level of this diet to increase ascorbate uptake to compensate for the low levels present in meat strikes me as foolhardy.

Scurvy is a real risk, and I have no faith in the claims made above that it is a non-issue.

 

[beero1000]

I would listen to the limey.

You can probably get enough Vitamin C from offal, seafood, and meat, but it is something you need to consciously monitor, along with other important nutrients. In a lot of ways it's the exact counterpart of extreme veganism. People can do it, but if you do it wrong you can get into trouble.

 

[PyramidHead]

When pigs fly, you mean? Well, I guess I should have underlined "poultry" and inserted a line break, my mistake!



The only ones that are sometimes added are those that do not contain sugars, like hard cheese, heavy cream, and kefir. But many people don't bother with milk at all. Depending on whether you consider eggs dairy, they are also commonly included and are chock full of nutrients, but again it depends on each individual's preference. The Andersen family has been eating nothing but ribeye steaks and water every day for decades.

And I would expect that quite a lot of offal (and not just from beef) and blood pudding would be needful, in order to get enough trace nutrients.

Which trace nutrients did you have in mind, and what are you using as an indicator for "enough"?

Vitamins; particularly the non-fat soluble ones (B group and C), and sufficient to avoid deficiency diseases.

I am highly skeptical that this diet contains adequate Vitamin C. Glucose can inhibit ascorbate uptake in the small intestine to a small degree, but that effect is far from significant in a typical diet, and relying on the low glucose level of this diet to increase ascorbate uptake to compensate for the low levels present in meat strikes me as foolhardy.

Scurvy is a real risk, and I have no faith in the claims made above that it is a non-issue.

It is by definition anecdotal, but it remains a datum that almost none of the people who have been interviewed or shared their stories about a zero-carb all-meat diet have noted any type of vitamin deficiency, C or otherwise. Obviously selection bias could be happening, but I find it hard to believe that the selection bias wouldn't go the other way (people are more inclined to report problems than the lack of problems, all else being equal). But I would not consider these anecdotes strong evidence one way or another, you're correct.

One argument that has been offered to explain these anecdotes (as well as historical ones) has to do with what vitamin C actually does:

Meat [also] prevents [scurvy] because it bypasses the need for vitamin C. Vitamin C is required to form collagen in the body, and it does this – despite being described everywhere as an antioxidant – by oxidation. Vitamin C’s role in collagen formation is to transfer a hydroxyl group to the amino acids lysine and proline. Meat, however, already contains appreciable quantities of hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline, [thus] bypassing some of the requirement for vitamin C. In other words, your vitamin C requirement is dependent upon how much meat you do not eat.

 

[beero1000]

Vitamins; particularly the non-fat soluble ones (B group and C), and sufficient to avoid deficiency diseases.

I am highly skeptical that this diet contains adequate Vitamin C. Glucose can inhibit ascorbate uptake in the small intestine to a small degree, but that effect is far from significant in a typical diet, and relying on the low glucose level of this diet to increase ascorbate uptake to compensate for the low levels present in meat strikes me as foolhardy.

Scurvy is a real risk, and I have no faith in the claims made above that it is a non-issue.

It is by definition anecdotal, but it remains a datum that almost none of the people who have been interviewed or shared their stories about a zero-carb all-meat diet have noted any type of vitamin deficiency, C or otherwise. Obviously selection bias could be happening, but I find it hard to believe that the selection bias wouldn't go the other way (people are more inclined to report problems than the lack of problems, all else being equal). But I would not consider these anecdotes strong evidence one way or another, you're correct.

One argument that has been offered to explain these anecdotes (as well as historical ones) has to do with what vitamin C actually does:

Meat [also] prevents [scurvy] because it bypasses the need for vitamin C. Vitamin C is required to form collagen in the body, and it does this – despite being described everywhere as an antioxidant – by oxidation. Vitamin C’s role in collagen formation is to transfer a hydroxyl group to the amino acids lysine and proline. Meat, however, already contains appreciable quantities of hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline, [thus] bypassing some of the requirement for vitamin C. In other words, your vitamin C requirement is dependent upon how much meat you do not eat.

You really want to be careful about selection bias. Vitamin deficiency is actually still fairly common.

The people talking about their successes on that sort of diet are the ones who had successes. People who got scurvy from the diet might not even realize it, and just stop because it made them feel bad. They would also be less likely to talk about it and it wouldn't be likely to make the news as it's so easily treatable.

Here's one link I was able to find: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crior/2012/624628/

ETA: and another http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/danger-of-zero-carb-diets-iii-scurvy/

ETA2: and another http://mariasols.com/2011/05/03/zero-carb-diet-gone-wrong-scurvy/

ETA3: Jeez http://www.reddup.co/r/zerocarb/comments/7h4bwt/gums_bleeding_during_zc_adaptation

 

[PyramidHead]

It is by definition anecdotal, but it remains a datum that almost none of the people who have been interviewed or shared their stories about a zero-carb all-meat diet have noted any type of vitamin deficiency, C or otherwise. Obviously selection bias could be happening, but I find it hard to believe that the selection bias wouldn't go the other way (people are more inclined to report problems than the lack of problems, all else being equal). But I would not consider these anecdotes strong evidence one way or another, you're correct.

One argument that has been offered to explain these anecdotes (as well as historical ones) has to do with what vitamin C actually does:

You really want to be careful about selection bias. Vitamin deficiency is actually still fairly common.

The people talking about their successes on that sort of diet are the ones who had successes. People who got scurvy from the diet might not even realize it, and just stop because it made them feel bad. They would also be less likely to talk about it and it wouldn't be likely to make the news as it's so easily treatable.

Here's one link I was able to find: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crior/2012/624628/

ETA: and another http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/danger-of-zero-carb-diets-iii-scurvy/

Your second link seems to be consistent what I was saying:

I started low-carb Paleo dieting in late 2005. I ate a lot of vegetables but no starches and hardly any fruit. In retrospect, I would call it a near zero-carb diet.

In other words, no meat at all. I would be very surprised if anyone could survive for very long with no meat without filling in the gaps with the entirety of the plant kingdom, including fruits.

 

[PyramidHead]

Also, I just want to point out that I have no intention of being religious about this, it's just a 30 day thing followed by an evaluation of where I want to go from there. I have nothing against supplements and nothing against changing my diet if things start to go south in any way. The point is that none of the really bad long-term problems are likely to happen in the first month, but the benefits can be appreciated and weighed against the risks in a way that is clearer than gradually easing into it.

 

[beero1000]

Your second link seems to be consistent what I was saying:

I started low-carb Paleo dieting in late 2005. I ate a lot of vegetables but no starches and hardly any fruit. In retrospect, I would call it a near zero-carb diet.

In other words, no meat at all. I would be very surprised if anyone could survive for very long with no meat without filling in the gaps with the entirety of the plant kingdom, including fruits.

No, low-carb Paleo is lots of meat. He mentions the vegetables and fruit specifically to support that it was a 'near zero-carb diet'.

Hey, I'm not telling you to do it or not to do it. For only 30 days you'll almost certainly be fine regardless of what you eat. I'm just saying you need to be aware that it isn't all rainbows and unicorns and if you don't carefully monitor vitamin intake you might be the lucky winner of a vitamin deficiency.

 

[PyramidHead]

Your second link seems to be consistent what I was saying:

I started low-carb Paleo dieting in late 2005. I ate a lot of vegetables but no starches and hardly any fruit. In retrospect, I would call it a near zero-carb diet.

In other words, no meat at all. I would be very surprised if anyone could survive for very long with no meat without filling in the gaps with the entirety of the plant kingdom, including fruits.

No, low-carb Paleo is lots of meat. He mentions the vegetables and fruit specifically to support that it was a 'near zero-carb diet'.

Hey, I'm not telling you to do it or not to do it. For only 30 days you'll almost certainly be fine regardless of what you eat. I'm just saying you need to be aware that it isn't all rainbows and unicorns and if you don't carefully monitor vitamin intake you might be the lucky winner of a vitamin deficiency.

Ah, I see, I had missed that. Well, luckily for me I like my meat rare and I enjoy liver occasionally, so we'll see what happens.

 

[beero1000]

No, low-carb Paleo is lots of meat. He mentions the vegetables and fruit specifically to support that it was a 'near zero-carb diet'.

Hey, I'm not telling you to do it or not to do it. For only 30 days you'll almost certainly be fine regardless of what you eat. I'm just saying you need to be aware that it isn't all rainbows and unicorns and if you don't carefully monitor vitamin intake you might be the lucky winner of a vitamin deficiency.

Ah, I see, I had missed that. Well, luckily for me I like my meat rare and I enjoy liver occasionally, so we'll see what happens.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yer be headin' fee scurrrrrrrvy, landlubber!

Second this.

Nobody should embark on any extreme diet without carefully checking all nutritional aspects of what they are eating.