Acting White

[ruby sparks]

I'm guessing most of us are familiar with the term, 'acting white' and its pejorative usage, but I'll quote wiki's definition:

"In the United States, acting white is a pejorative term, usually applied to black people, which refers to a person's perceived betrayal of their culture by assuming the social expectations of white society."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white

Being white myself, and not being from the USA, I am probably not best placed to comment. But if I were to offer an opinion of how it looks to me, I'd say it seems to be an unfortunate aspect of black culture, and while its origins may (perhaps) be traced back at least partially to white attitudes about blacks (I am not sure if that is/was the case, but it doesn't seem implausible at all), it seems to me that now and in the recent past (let's say for the sake of argument the last 40 years at least) it's been problematic and limiting because it's about blacks' attitudes to and expectations about themselves and other blacks. In other words, it seems as if it has, no matter what its origins, become individually and culturally 'internalised'.

So, if, hypothetically, someone had asked me to cite an example of how black culture is a part of the general race problems in the USA (and possibly elsewhere) I might have thought of this first, if only because it's the first example that springs to mind. I'm not necessarily saying it's the only or main black cultural factor in play.

I use the term 'black' here, but my guess is that this may apply to native African Americans especially. And obviously I am generalising. Clearly this is not an attitude that all of the demographic subscribe to or experience.

 

[fromderinside]

Acting white. Memory lane. Thomasville GA. Birdwood, now Thomasville CC. A nice kid Harold Ford. Modest athlete, average achiever with big, big big very pleasant personality.

Taught and advised him there then. He used acting white to get along in racist community. Worked on me and for him. Sponsored his getting job as dispatcher with Thomasville police dept back in '76.

Things were really bad for persons of color there then. Very common approach for those needing to just-git-along. It was a survival thing back then and it's a survival thing now.

From my perspective its avery rational way to keep things cool, to avoid being left out of 'normal' society. people suffer because they need to act so. However most who do are known to be reliable and functional in a broken world with little social down side. I don't see surviving as a bad thing as long as the one so doing acknowledges to oneself and those with whom one acts why one is so doing.

 

[ruby sparks]

Acting white. Memory lane. Thomasville GA. Birdwood, now Thomasville CC. A nice kid Harold Ford. Modest athlete, average achiever with big, big big very pleasant personality.

Taught and advised him there then. He used acting white to get along in racist community. Worked on me and for him. Sponsored his getting job as dispatcher with Thomasville police dept back in '76.

Things were really bad for persons of color there then. Very common approach for those needing to just-git-along. It was a survival thing back then and it's a survival thing now.

From my perspective its avery rational way to keep things cool, to avoid being left out of 'normal' society. people suffer because they need to act so. However most who do are known to be reliable and functional in a broken world with little social down side. I don't see surviving as a bad thing as long as the one so doing acknowledges to oneself and those with whom one acts why one is so doing.

Thx.

All I would say about that, and you probably would agree, is that even that sort of thing (which I can totally understand) has the effect of perpetuating the unhelpful attitudes. I say that while fully understanding the need to get along with one's peers, and the price that a person can pay for stepping 'out of line'.

Ideally, one would hope that more and more black people, especially nowadays when things are not as bad as at the time you are talking about, will step out of line. It's probably already happening, but maybe it could happen more, and it's something that other ethnic groups, including whites obviously, should encourage, welcome and facilitate, and my guess is that many do already.

That said, it's not exactly a widely popular narrative, because it lays some responsibility with blacks themselves. And also, I can understand if some fear that in the wrong hands, it could be overstated or played upon (to sweep the racism, that still is at large and also a contributing factor, under the carpet).

Broadly speaking, the people disagreeing about all this really, really need to meet in the middle, imo, but the middle looks like no man's land in the debate currently.

 

[Trausti]

Yes. “Acting white” is an insult levied by blacks against other blacks. When I had the experience of attending school with large black student populations, the black kid who participated in class, did his homework, and was well behaved would be joked on by his black peers.

 

[Toni]

Yes. “Acting white” is an insult levied by blacks against other blacks. When I had the experience of attending school with large black student populations, the black kid who participated in class, did his homework, and was well behaved would be joked on by his black peers.

Same thing happened to a lot of white boys I went to school with. Also white girls. Truthfully, there weren't any other kinda kids where I went to school for most of my schooling.

A certain kind of person just doesn't much like people who seem to follow the rules a little too much because it makes them feel bad if the rules work against them. And it should. Rules should work for everyone.

 

[Derec]

Ideally, one would hope that more and more black people, especially nowadays when things are not as bad as at the time you are talking about, will step out of line.

What exactly do you mean by "stepping out of line"?

 

[ruby sparks]

Ideally, one would hope that more and more black people, especially nowadays when things are not as bad as at the time you are talking about, will step out of line.

What exactly do you mean by "stepping out of line"?

What I already said I meant. Not conforming to or buying into the problematic black cultural norm that the term ‘acting white’ relates to, even it it means going against the opinions of one’s peers. Stepping out of the peer group, in other words, as I previously said when I put inverted commas around ‘stepping out of line’ the first time I used the phrase.

For example, not seeing educational attainment as ‘selling out’, but as something to aspire to and worth the effort. And certainly not seeing it as a ‘white’ thing, which is a slightly odd thing to do anyway, because as regards valuing educational attainment specifically, it might be better called acting Asian.

 

[ruby sparks]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvjtYNwtj8&feature=youtu.be

A very interesting discussion on the topic.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Never heard the expression before. Can't relate to it, and it isn't because I haven't been around enough blacks.

But I have experienced the thing where a kid is ostracized for being an achiever, not me, but the smart kid who gets all A's in classes. Must be similar to that.

 

[ruby sparks]

It is a bit similar to that, I think. It’s just a specific version that shows up in black culture.

 

[ruby sparks]

“One destructive feature of black culture is the conviction among many blacks, especially teenage boys, that those who achieve academic success and speak standard English are “acting white.” President Obama addressed this troubling epithet in 2004, when he called on blacks to “eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white.” Ten years later, he reiterated this criticism, adding that “the notion that there’s some authentic way of being black, that if you’re going to be black you have to act a certain way and wear a certain kind of clothes, that has to go.” The iconic rapper Jay-Z made the same point in a recent interview with Dean Baquet of the New York Times. Addressing Baquet, (who is also black) he said, “It’s O.K. to think. It’s O.K. to be smart. You know, there was a time when people was like, ‘you talkin’ white.’ It’s like, what does that even mean?…And I’m sure you’ve heard it growing up many times.” “


https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/

Author is the guy being interviewed in the youtube video I posted earlier (Coleman Hughes).

 

[ruby sparks]

From a 2001 article by John McWhorter:

“ “The “acting white” charge—which implies that you think yourself different from, and better than, your peers—is the prime reason that blacks do poorly in school. The gifted black student quickly faces a choice between peer group acceptance and intellectual achievement. Most, out of an utterly human impulse, choose the former. Even if they open themselves to schooling in college or later, their performance all too often permanently suffers from the message they long ago internalized that “the school thing” is an add-on, not a mix-in.”


https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html

 

[Mumbles]

From a 2001 article by John McWhorter:

“ “The “acting white” charge—which implies that you think yourself different from, and better than, your peers—is the prime reason that blacks do poorly in school. The gifted black student quickly faces a choice between peer group acceptance and intellectual achievement. Most, out of an utterly human impulse, choose the former. Even if they open themselves to schooling in college or later, their performance all too often permanently suffers from the message they long ago internalized that “the school thing” is an add-on, not a mix-in.”


https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html

In my view, the basic white stereotype involves stereotypes like the "Karen" - self-entitled, obnoxious, and far too happy to toss around their status until they get taken down because of it - metalheads, jazz fans (yes, I know, this one is painfully ignorant), and the like. The basic reason why black kids in "gifted" classes socialize less with other black kids is...they're around black kids less often than other black kids are. There's variation from one school to the next, naturally, but given how segregated US schools are, "acting white" rarely has much to do with anything related to school in the first place.

The entire stereotype is based on a single study from decades ago, where they asked black kids at a single DC school what they thought of aademic achievement. First problem: the researcher never asked the white kids in the same school what *they* thought of it. In other words, it's possible that all the kids felt the same way, in which case it's just that one school. Second flaw: It was a study of a single school. It could easily be isolated to that one school (in my personal experience, both in Bmore and in Boston, high academic achievement is considered something to be proud of by other black people. Other black folks sometimes agree, and sometimes don't.) Here's Vox, which looks at quite a few studies, and concludes that there's not much to back it up, which is why sociologists have pretty much tossed it out:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...ids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunked

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Never heard the expression before. Can't relate to it, and it isn't because I haven't been around enough blacks.

But I have experienced the thing where a kid is ostracized for being an achiever, not me, but the smart kid who gets all A's in classes. Must be similar to that.

Yup, it's a more extreme version of that. It's not merely As, but following the route of a typical white person--get an education, use it to get a decent job. In other words, the normal route to a middle class life.

It's basically trying to tear down anyone who tries to escape poverty.

 

[Mumbles]

“One destructive feature of black culture is the conviction among many blacks, especially teenage boys, that those who achieve academic success and speak standard English are “acting white.” President Obama addressed this troubling epithet in 2004, when he called on blacks to “eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white.” Ten years later, he reiterated this criticism, adding that “the notion that there’s some authentic way of being black, that if you’re going to be black you have to act a certain way and wear a certain kind of clothes, that has to go.” The iconic rapper Jay-Z made the same point in a recent interview with Dean Baquet of the New York Times. Addressing Baquet, (who is also black) he said, “It’s O.K. to think. It’s O.K. to be smart. You know, there was a time when people was like, ‘you talkin’ white.’ It’s like, what does that even mean?…And I’m sure you’ve heard it growing up many times.” “


https://quillette.com/2018/05/14/the-racism-treadmill/

Author is the guy being interviewed in the youtube video I posted earlier (Coleman Hughes).

I already addressed the "acting white" thing, so I'll go into two things:

First - Oh, there's absolutely a social stigma to "talking white". But again, that's not about "being educated" since, frankly, the entire idea that one accent is "more educated and intelligent" than another is absurd to begin with, so much as a view that someone with a newscaster accent is "trying to signal they're better than other black people", or "trying to fit in with white people who will just stab you in the back." And there are quite a few of us who code-switch, use a "white accent" for office functions, and our "black voice" outside of that. The movie "Sorry to Bother You" discusses this, among many other issues, very directly.

Second, quillette is generally seen as "that non-per reviewed rag with all the phrenology articles, except they call it 'craniology' and insist that it's different somehow." So not the best reputation.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Never heard the expression before. Can't relate to it, and it isn't because I haven't been around enough blacks.

But I have experienced the thing where a kid is ostracized for being an achiever, not me, but the smart kid who gets all A's in classes. Must be similar to that.

Yup, it's a more extreme version of that. It's not merely As, but following the route of a typical white person--get an education, use it to get a decent job. In other words, the normal route to a middle class life.

It's basically trying to tear down anyone who tries to escape poverty.

It’s not so much the grades but the outward appearance of getting good grades. You can get that 3.5 GPA, just don’t be raising your hand in class, going home to do your homework, or transferring to AP classes.

 

[ruby sparks]

From a 2001 article by John McWhorter:

“ “The “acting white” charge—which implies that you think yourself different from, and better than, your peers—is the prime reason that blacks do poorly in school. The gifted black student quickly faces a choice between peer group acceptance and intellectual achievement. Most, out of an utterly human impulse, choose the former. Even if they open themselves to schooling in college or later, their performance all too often permanently suffers from the message they long ago internalized that “the school thing” is an add-on, not a mix-in.”


https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html

In my view, the basic white stereotype involves stereotypes like the "Karen" - self-entitled, obnoxious, and far too happy to toss around their status until they get taken down because of it - metalheads, jazz fans (yes, I know, this one is painfully ignorant), and the like. The basic reason why black kids in "gifted" classes socialize less with other black kids is...they're around black kids less often than other black kids are. There's variation from one school to the next, naturally, but given how segregated US schools are, "acting white" rarely has much to do with anything related to school in the first place.

The entire stereotype is based on a single study from decades ago, where they asked black kids at a single DC school what they thought of aademic achievement. First problem: the researcher never asked the white kids in the same school what *they* thought of it. In other words, it's possible that all the kids felt the same way, in which case it's just that one school. Second flaw: It was a study of a single school. It could easily be isolated to that one school (in my personal experience, both in Bmore and in Boston, high academic achievement is considered something to be proud of by other black people. Other black folks sometimes agree, and sometimes don't.) Here's Vox, which looks at quite a few studies, and concludes that there's not much to back it up, which is why sociologists have pretty much tossed it out:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...ids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunked

Thanks. Much appreciated. That article would lead me to wonder whether we are talking about yet another insidious myth.

I am not sure if I could go as far as you necessarily. First, the entire stereotype is not based on a single study and second, it does not seem to be the case that the idea has been pretty much tossed out, rather it seems there is disagreement and controversy. In that sense, you seem to go a bit too far.

However, given that for it to be a relevant explanation for gaps in academic achievement by race (ie for lower achievements by American non-whites), it would, I think, need to be shown not only that it exists, but that it is more pronounced for American non-whites than for, say, the equivalent phenomenon in whites. And it now seems to me, after reading the article you posted and a few others, that this is at least questionable, or not demonstrated. So on balance I am inclined to be at least somewhat suspicious about its validity, by which I mean the validity of the problematical 'acting white' stereotype.

Which if true, then begs the question, how does someone like Coleman Hughes get it so wrong? The immediate answer seems to be that he is persuaded by John McWhorter's arguments. John McWhorter is certainly eloquent, but his ideas are.....well, it's not clear to me what data or evidences they are based on. I'd label him as a man of ideas, in the Continental Philosophy tradition, where deconstructing is popular, sometimes for its own sake. I've always thought of him (McWhorter) as potentially being a bit of a provocateur and a controversialist. Coleman Hughes, on the other hand, seems more level-headed.

I'll not get into the related 'talking white' thing, but note what you say.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Never heard the expression before. Can't relate to it, and it isn't because I haven't been around enough blacks.

But I have experienced the thing where a kid is ostracized for being an achiever, not me, but the smart kid who gets all A's in classes. Must be similar to that.

Yup, it's a more extreme version of that. It's not merely As, but following the route of a typical white person--get an education, use it to get a decent job. In other words, the normal route to a middle class life.

It's basically trying to tear down anyone who tries to escape poverty.

It’s not so much the grades but the outward appearance of getting good grades. You can get that 3.5 GPA, just don’t be raising your hand in class, going home to do your homework, or transferring to AP classes.

True, but it's hard to learn well while not showing that you do.