Advice For Divided Democrats

[untermensche]

As a response to my point complete nonsense is irrelevant.

Hillary is just a way to move the nation a little further right. Like her husband did.

I just wish the supporters of Hillary would be honest about this.

See that's the thing--I don't agree that "Hillary is just a way to move the nation a little further right." I am under no obligation to share your opinion just because you keep repeating it. My disagreement with your personal opinion does not make me dishonest.

Well good luck with all that.

She authorized GW to invade Iraq at will.

She does nothing but talk about how the US is the world's policeman and defends US violence overseas.

What about her is on the left eludes me.

 

[Rhea]

What about her is on the left eludes me.

Agreed.
(agreed that it eludes you. It does not elude others.)

 

[untermensche]

What about her is on the left eludes me.

Agreed.
(agreed that it eludes you. It does not elude others.)

Bernie came out today and said it is up to the candidate to attract support.

It is not up to him to tell people what to do.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

First, there is no practical way that health care reform in the US, in the present political environment, is going to eliminate private insurance companies. Therefore, the fact that it gave those insurance companies the "huge gift" of, apparently, not abolishing them, is irrelevant compared with the 15 million or more Americans who now have health insurance thanks to the Affordable Care Act.

Looking in as a foreigner who does have real universal health care, I find this debate in the USA fascinating. Up here in Canada, attempting to do away with our health care system and put it all in the hands of insurance companies would be political suicide.

As to the "huge gift"... am I wrong in believing that the ACA forced people to get health insurance, thus forcing money into the coffers of the insurance companies? Is that the actual huge gift mentioned?

 

[Rhea]

Agreed.
(agreed that it eludes you. It does not elude others.)

Bernie came out today and said it is up to the candidate to attract support.

It is not up to him to tell people what to do.

Ubelivable thing to say.
You said you'd fight against trump. Is Bernie changing his mind and now he won't? Weird.

 

[untermensche]

Bernie came out today and said it is up to the candidate to attract support.

It is not up to him to tell people what to do.

Ubelivable thing to say.
You said you'd fight against trump. Is Bernie changing his mind and now he won't? Weird.

He said he will do everything in his power to try to defeat Trump.

But he is not going to tell his supporters what to do.

He obviously is telling them that he intends to fight Trump.

 

[Ford]

Bernie came out today and said it is up to the candidate to attract support.

It is not up to him to tell people what to do.

Ubelivable thing to say.
You said you'd fight against trump. Is Bernie changing his mind and now he won't? Weird.

It isn't unbelievable at all. When a person has tied themselves up in such ridiculous, illogical knots defending their chosen candidate, untying those knots and admitting that reality is not in sync with their opinion is hard. So the weak-willed person simply denies reality and/or makes up a new one.

If Hillary wins the nomination, Bernie has said that he'll support her. In order to remain a Bernie supporter, one would have to get behind what he gets behind, which a couple months from now will be Hillary. Bernie won't be telling his supporters what to do, but he will be demonstrating what they should do. If they really believe he's right about everything, then he's right to support Hillary.

 

[untermensche]

Ubelivable thing to say.
You said you'd fight against trump. Is Bernie changing his mind and now he won't? Weird.

It isn't unbelievable at all. When a person has tied themselves up in such ridiculous, illogical knots defending their chosen candidate, untying those knots and admitting that reality is not in sync with their opinion is hard. So the weak-willed person simply denies reality and/or makes up a new one.

If Hillary wins the nomination, Bernie has said that he'll support her. In order to remain a Bernie supporter, one would have to get behind what he gets behind, which a couple months from now will be Hillary. Bernie won't be telling his supporters what to do, but he will be demonstrating what they should do. If they really believe he's right about everything, then he's right to support Hillary.

That's not how it works.

That's how it works for those who worship people and not ideas.

It is up to Hillary to drum up support. She gets none just because she has Bernie's.

And Bernie has said that if she wants the support of the people who support him she will have to move.

 

[Ford]

It isn't unbelievable at all. When a person has tied themselves up in such ridiculous, illogical knots defending their chosen candidate, untying those knots and admitting that reality is not in sync with their opinion is hard. So the weak-willed person simply denies reality and/or makes up a new one.

If Hillary wins the nomination, Bernie has said that he'll support her. In order to remain a Bernie supporter, one would have to get behind what he gets behind, which a couple months from now will be Hillary. Bernie won't be telling his supporters what to do, but he will be demonstrating what they should do. If they really believe he's right about everything, then he's right to support Hillary.

That's not how it works.

That's how it works for those who worship people and not ideas.

It is up to Hillary to drum up support. She gets none just because she has Bernie's.

And Bernie has said that if she wants the support of the people who support him she will have to move.

Yeah but you worship Bernie, so you've got to follow his example.

 

[untermensche]

That's not how it works.

That's how it works for those who worship people and not ideas.

It is up to Hillary to drum up support. She gets none just because she has Bernie's.

And Bernie has said that if she wants the support of the people who support him she will have to move.

Yeah but you worship Bernie, so you've got to follow his example.

I admire him and I agree with him on probably about 90% of his positions.

He may be the only candidate like this I will see in my lifetime.

 

[Rhea]

Ubelivable thing to say.
You said you'd fight against trump. Is Bernie changing his mind and now he won't? Weird.

He said he will do everything in his power to try to defeat Trump.

One thing that's in his power is telling his supporters that this is incredibly important.

But he is not going to tell his supporters what to do.

But he can tell them how important it is.

He obviously is telling them that he intends to fight Trump.

Not terribly convincingly, if he's saying "it is up to the candidate to attract support."


My take on that would be: It makes good sense to not be loud about this until after the nomination is certain. That's cool and makes good sense.

But you don't need to go the OPPOSITE, and indicate that you _won't_ campaign for the person against Trump. You know? This is an "own goal." It's an unnecessary declaration. Don't even bother say, "she had to attract my voters herself," just say NOTHING until after the nomination, THEN you can tell them how important it is to vote against Trump. And if Sanders is the nominee, he won't have bnurned any bridges.

Dumb statement. Own goal.

Does he _really_ think that if he wins the nomination he can beat Trump _without_ Clinton's supporters? Why is he doing his best to increase their anxiety? That's just bad leadership.

 

[untermensche]

One thing that's in his power is telling his supporters that this is incredibly important.

That's for the dictatorial top-down crowd.

He will speak, and his supporters will hear him, against Trump and the need for Trump to be defeated.

But he is not a dictator in control of some mob.

And his supporters are his supporters because of it.

It is entirely up to Hillary to attract his supporters.

Either she will succeed or she will fail. Bernie will have nothing to do with it and can't be used as some scapegoat.

 

[Rhea]

One thing that's in his power is telling his supporters that this is incredibly important.

That's for the dictatorial top-down crowd.

He will speak, and his supporters will hear him, against Trump and the need for Trump to be defeated.

But he is not a dictator in control of some mob.

And his supporters are his supporters because of it.

It is entirely up to Hillary to attract his supporters.

Either she will succeed or she will fail. Bernie will have nothing to do with it and can't be used as some scapegoat.

But by god! we're gonna make sure everyone knows that we're putting the cart before the horse!! We haven't won or lost the nomination yet, but if we lose we can be real unity-busters! You'd better take us seriously!

Meh. He should have waited until after the nomination to send the message to his supporters that there's no need for them to vote against Trump. MY opinion. This was wasted breath. He was a fool to declare it now. And I expect he'll change his tune. But I can wait for that, no prob.

 

[untermensche]

That's for the dictatorial top-down crowd.

He will speak, and his supporters will hear him, against Trump and the need for Trump to be defeated.

But he is not a dictator in control of some mob.

And his supporters are his supporters because of it.

It is entirely up to Hillary to attract his supporters.

Either she will succeed or she will fail. Bernie will have nothing to do with it and can't be used as some scapegoat.

But by god! we're gonna make sure everyone knows that we're putting the cart before the horse!! We haven't won or lost the nomination yet, but if we lose we can be real unity-busters! You'd better take us seriously!

Meh. He should have waited until after the nomination to send the message to his supporters that there's no need for them to vote against Trump. MY opinion. This was wasted breath. He was a fool to declare it now. And I expect he'll change his tune. But I can wait for that, no prob.

Bernie will not play the role of dictator to suit you.

And this deflection from acknowledging it is entirely up to Hillary to try to gain the support of people is astonishing. None come automatically if she wins the nomination.

 

[Rhea]

But by god! we're gonna make sure everyone knows that we're putting the cart before the horse!! We haven't won or lost the nomination yet, but if we lose we can be real unity-busters! You'd better take us seriously!

Meh. He should have waited until after the nomination to send the message to his supporters that there's no need for them to vote against Trump. MY opinion. This was wasted breath. He was a fool to declare it now. And I expect he'll change his tune. But I can wait for that, no prob.

Bernie will not play the role of dictator to suit you.

Congratulations for being once again completely wrong about what I said.

And this deflection from acknowledging it is entirely up to Hillary to try to gain the support of people is astonishing. None come automatically if she wins the nomination.

Jesus.

 

[untermensche]

Jesus.

Not a rational response.

A response from somebody who sees themselves as not having to give reasons.

A modern elite in the Democratic Party.

 

[Ford]

One thing that's in his power is telling his supporters that this is incredibly important.

That's for the dictatorial top-down crowd.

That's it. Just call everyone who disagrees with your view "dictatorial."

He will speak, and his supporters will hear him, against Trump and the need for Trump to be defeated.

Yeah, but you want Trump to win, to punish the "Democratic Elite" for not nominating Bernie (although it is the rank and file party members who did the voting).

But he is not a dictator in control of some mob.

Well he certainly isn't in control of his moronic "Bernie or Bust" supporters, who aren't actually paying attention to what he says.

And his supporters are his supporters because of it.

Oh, but he doesn't have supporters according to you. Only his ideas. No cult of personality here.

It is entirely up to Hillary to attract his supporters.

She doesn't need them to win the nomination. She's got more of her own supporters. Millions more. That's what makes the rabid Bernie supporters even more angry. They can't imagine someone beating Bernie, but that's happening. California is coming up, and Bernie is behind in every poll...by double digits in some.

Again, the difference is that while Bernie supporters get all excited and show up to rallies and troll the internet with their banal rhetoric, Clinton gets out the vote. She's winning because she motivates people to take action as opposed to just getting all excited.

Either she will succeed or she will fail. Bernie will have nothing to do with it and can't be used as some scapegoat.

Well she will almost certainly succeed in defeating Bernie for the nomination. The general is less certain, but if she carries every state that Democrats have won in the last six elections plus Florida, she's the next President. Trump has to flip several states red in order to win, and he has to do so with historically unprecedented unfavorable ratings among the very people he needs to convert (women and minorities).


It IS Clinton's election to lose. Bernie can help or harm, but I suspect he'll help by supporting her once she wins the nomination. His supporters? Well, angry mobs of pitchfork wielding villagers are rarely swayed by reason. All we can hope for is that the drooling maniacs who imagine Bernie as a Savior and Clinton as the Devil do as they've done during the primary so far, and stay the fuck home. Clinton isn't going to be harmed by people who are too stupid to understand that you've actually got to VOTE for a candidate in order for them to win.

 

[untermensche]

Well she will almost certainly succeed in defeating Bernie for the nomination.

And Trump has succeeded.

What exactly does success with a small minority of Americans prove?

 

[Ford]

Well she will almost certainly succeed in defeating Bernie for the nomination.

And Trump has succeeded.

What exactly does success with a small minority of Americans prove?

I understand why you framed it that way, but your attempt at trolling exposes an even more painful truth for Bernie supporters. His "political revolution" can't even convince half of the registered voters of one party to support him. It is true...voter participation in this country is low. Under 60 percent in the 2012 general election. In the 30s during the mid terms in 2010 and 2014. Participation in the primary process is even lower than that.

And Bernie couldn't even win over half of those people. If his "political revolution" were all that revolutionary, he'd not just have already had the nomination wrapped up, but he'd have done so by bringing millions more people into the primary process. He'd have inspired countless young people to not just be annoying on social media, but to register as Democrats, Google their nearest polling place, and not just show up at some old VFW hall and vote, but bring friends and like-minded people along with them.


He didn't. He failed. He failed to get the needed number of votes in a low-participation nominating process.


So let's rephrase your question, then...what exactly does failure with a small minority of Americans prove?

 

[untermensche]

And Trump has succeeded.

What exactly does success with a small minority of Americans prove?

I understand why you framed it that way, but your attempt at trolling exposes an even more painful truth for Bernie supporters. His "political revolution" can't even convince half of the registered voters of one party to support him. It is true...voter participation in this country is low. Under 60 percent in the 2012 general election. In the 30s during the mid terms in 2010 and 2014. Participation in the primary process is even lower than that.

Asking serious questions is only trolling to the very dense.

Bernie did not create the current situation.

He arrives in the midst of a system thoroughly corrupted in every way, from the players, to the Parties, to the media, to now the courts, by money.

And people know this and stay away from the system because it disgusts them.

So let's rephrase your question, then...what exactly does failure with a small minority of Americans prove?

At least something worthwhile.

In a system that has managed to make half the electorate despise it, not very much.