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African Immigrant Says College Degrees Mostly Useless

I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies, a degree that prepares them for no meaningful job and why they are a cashier) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"
It is not a problem at all for those who are comfortable with addition and subtraction. In fact, I am generally thanked for the pennies because it keeps from emptying their till of them.
 
If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"
It is not a problem at all for those who are comfortable with addition and subtraction. In fact, I am generally thanked for the pennies because it keeps from emptying their till of them.

Wondering how much time you've spent working a cash register.
 
Sure, but would you get the same results, more consistently among people without a degree?
Probably. But that is sorta the point. Maybe I have a screwy idea of education. I think that a degree that requires four years of someone's life and fifty thousand or more dollars should prepare someone with better knowledge and skills to fill a job than someone who didn't spend the wealth and time.

At the basics, I can't think of any job where an understanding of basic math like addition and subtraction aren't useful at least occasionally. For someone to be able to be awarded a four degree and not have learned this skill is rather absurd to me.
Well, arithmetic is a grade school subject not even a remedial college subject. So, it would appear to me that these cashiers may have become rusty with their arithmetic. Which can happen, just like people can become rusty with reasoning when they think generalization about an entire subject (the worth of a college education) based on a small sample of irrelevancies is relevant.
 
If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"
It is not a problem at all for those who are comfortable with addition and subtraction. In fact, I am generally thanked for the pennies because it keeps from emptying their till of them.

Wondering how much time you've spent working a cash register.

Not very long, only about three years while in school.
 
Sure, but would you get the same results, more consistently among people without a degree?
Probably. But that is sorta the point. Maybe I have a screwy idea of education. I think that a degree that requires four years of someone's life and fifty thousand or more dollars should prepare someone with better knowledge and skills to fill a job than someone who didn't spend the wealth and time.

At the basics, I can't think of any job where an understanding of basic math like addition and subtraction aren't useful at least occasionally. For someone to be able to be awarded a four degree and not have learned this skill is rather absurd to me.

Well you're not completely off the mark. There is a correlation between the utility of a degree and employability. Engineering grads have to fight off job offers, while a women's study or history degree may be more or less fruitless by itself. My point is more along the lines of the women's study or history degree still having value. For instance, if the history grad goes on to study software, the combination of the two degrees is far more powerful than either alone.

Basically it comes down to a mark on a resume and how that affects people's perception of you, getting you into interviews, and an increased range of job opportunities. Or even how easy it becomes for a hiring manager to justify hiring you simply because you look good on paper. So degrees aren't all created equal, and all affect that perception differently, but it's the rare case that they detract from your job opportunities. Which is why we see college grads out-earn non college grads almost universally.
 
I have heardo f companies hiring philosophy and liberal arts students to add diversity of thought and approaches.

I imagine it is up to the individual. If you just get your ticket punched and expect to walk into a good job you will be disappointed. That was the OWS movement. New college grads expecting to find jobs because they had a degree and complaining when they were not there.

Teachers help, you also have to make an effort to learn. To me it was what you do outside of class. When you graduate you can't just sit still.

There has been a chronic shortage of skilled workers for a long time. Welders require trade school and certification nd can make over $100k.

There is a chronic shortage of two year technical degrees around here.

I partly blame Obama for pushing the idea that the only way to have a good life is with a 4 year degree.
 
Off the top of my head, plumbers, contractors, owners of auto repair ships, etc. earn a good deal more than those who graduate with some majors.
True. Some trades are very well paid. A lot of them are unpleasant work (from your list plumbers certainly) and that affects the pay. That said, you included "owner" of a business, but many business owners have degrees.

And for a real outlyer, there is Bill Gates.
Also Zuckerberg. But they are real outliers, and should not be used for any kind of argument. They are not typical non-college graduates. For one, they did go to college, Harvard even, and they did not quit because they could not hack it academically but because they saw a business opportunity they wanted to take advantage of.
 
...... For instance, if the history grad goes on to study software, the combination of the two degrees is far more powerful than either alone.
Absolutely. The more someone is knowledgeable about, the more they can do. I did meet one guy who was a double major, geology and computer science. He developed a program to find the most likely areas to find oil using his expertise in both fields of study. He was in great demand by the oil industries. Each field of study was valuable by themselves but together they were dynomite.
 
...... For instance, if the history grad goes on to study software, the combination of the two degrees is far more powerful than either alone.
Absolutely. The more someone is knowledgeable about, the more they can do. I did meet one guy who was a double major, geology and computer science. He developed a program to find the most likely areas to find oil using his expertise in both fields of study. He was in great demand by the oil industries. Each field of study was valuable by themselves but together they were dynomite.

Maybe, but that's a bit of an aside from my point that degrees are primarily about perception, and not always skills. My own history is a good example. I have a Medical Science bachelors with zero applicability to the overwhelming brunt of programming jobs, but people see it and assume I'm smarter than other applicants (which in a lot of cases probably is true). When I was in college I had about 30-35 internship interviews, when I graduated from college I got into a fortune 500 right out of school, and now I'm earning more than most people I graduated from my software diploma with. In every case it was the bachelors that differentiated me, even though the degree doesn't help me in the job at all.

So when you're looking at degrees that offer little real skills, you shouldn't be comparing them to other majors, but rather the person's situation if they didn't have the degree at all. In almost every case someone with an arbitrary degree is better off than someone with only a high-school diploma. But yes.. if those degrees offer real skills they're measurably better.
 
The fact that Musk is so intelligent makes his opinion on this particularly worthless. Very intelligent people know how to learn on their own without structure. Also,. they would find the pace and level of typical college instruction tedious and below their current level of knowledge/skill b/c it is targeted toward the average and not exceptional intellect.

The fact that Musk is too self-centered and narcissistic to realize that he is especially unqualified to speak to this issue just shows that general intellect and specialized knowledge isn't the same as being self-aware and able to recognize one's biases.

A recent meta-analysis of 71 studies shows significant pre-post gains in general critical thinking skills during college. They also showed that the more college years between the pre and post tests the larger the critical thinking gain and faster rate of gain in later years. The most conservative index of the gain was a .46 Standard Deviation gain, which is quite large (more than twice as large as the gender difference in math skill).

Also, the idea that a college course doesn't increase knowledge in that domain is quite simply moronic. Exposure to information is a necessary precondition for acquiring that information. College course expose people to far more information on a topic than most people would be exposed to in that timeframe otherwise. While students can not put in the effort to deeply learn all that info, they'd have to deliberately try to avoid learning not to acquire some knowledge or skills they didn't already possess (unless they are too smart to be in that class). In addition, the information is vetted by experts and generally excludes most of the mountains of nonsense and invalid information that would drown-out the valid information if most people tried to sort through it on their own. There are numerous studies showing that most people are quite terrible at identifying and selectively utilizing the more valid and reliable information on a topic when left to search for it on their own, and this leads to forming objectively inaccurate understanding of concepts in science and history. And the testing and assessments also matter. Not only do they provide evidence that the student engaged in some minimal processing of the provided information, but numerous experiments show that testing itself increasing understanding and retention of the material

Plus, courses provide the opportunity to both observe and engage in critical thinking, comparative theory evaluation, and construction of a reasoned argument. While crappy teachers just present the current conclusions/facts in a discipline, better instructors model reasoning walking students through the reasoning process, critiquing presented ideas, encourage discussion and debate, etc.. Granted that happens more in the smaller and more advanced courses than 300 person lectures.

Yeah, you can skate through college without putting in the effort and not learn very much. But those people won't learn very much on their own either, b/c it shows they place no intrinsic value on learning unless their is some short term payoff. And yes, grade inflation or more importantly lack of grade variability is a problem and we need more pressure on instructors to at least give as many Cs as As, even if they aren't going to fail anyone who at least completes most assignments. But even with those problems, a degree reflects that the person was at least exposed to a breadth and depth of information that typically goes well beyond high school, and they jumped through hoops that require some minimal level of processing of that info. Test themselves are often not highly reliable indicators of acquired skills and knowledge. So, knowing that a person was at least exposed to the information and experiences that would have developed their knowledge and skills had they put in the effort is useful information.
 
I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies, a degree that prepares them for no meaningful job and why they are a cashier) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"

What's being a douche about it? You're going to get $1.55 in change. You gave them three coins, you get back three coins. If you don't give them the three cents you're going to get $1.52 in change--4 coins. Giving the coins thus reduces your coin count by 4 and coins take up space in a wallet. In my experience 90+% of clerks understand why you gave them some extra pennies.

I normally give them the bills and say "I've got the 3 cents" while fishing out the pennies. I don't do it at places with automatic coin dispensers, only where a human is picking coins out of their slots.
 
In retrospect I had a very good high school education. Heavy emphasis on reading comprehension and writing.

In college I had two classes in political science and four in philosophy. That is where I learned to argue, debate, defend positions, and express ideas. It served me well as an engineer. I am sure there are exceptions, but I do not see how you can gain that without college experience. Malcolm X was an exception.

Competing with and interacting with others.

In the news locally Amazon is no longer requiting college degrees for many jobs. In the local news they no longer require a degree for coders, the kind of work does not require a CS degree.

I will say, the landscape for being hired as a developer with no CS background is going to shrink. One, more and more kids are majoring in CS. And if the choice comes down to it, likely they will go with the CS grad. Of course, work experience would trump anything.

But a lot of the programming jobs that don't require a good background in CS (i.e. algorithms, data structures, etc) is going to shrink because a lot of those jobs are being automated away (usually by people with CS degrees). Or, they can hire someone in Bangladesh or Argentina working remotely and pay them a fraction.

Of course, most interviews at good programming jobs already basically amount to what would be an exam on data structures and algorithms. So, you don't necessarily need the degree. You can pick up the books and get the background yourself. Nowadays, you can use MOOCs to and get these classes, introductory to advanced/graduate level, from places like Stanford and MIT without paying a cent.

When you hire that someone from Bangladesh you likely end up with no common sense involved in the implementation.

And I don't think data structures and algorithms are the important part of CS anymore. Most of the heavy lifting is handled by libraries, what's much more important is understanding how to translate requirements into bulletproof code.

I do agree you don't need the classes--anyone worth their salt as a programmer can pretty much teach themselves these days. You're going to have to learn tons of new stuff over your career anyway, if you can do that you can learn the initial stuff also.

We have specialized certificates in many IT things, I think we would be well served by universities offering certificates as well as degrees. Getting such a certificate would require passing a test on the material needed for the corresponding degree, but it would not include any of the extra classes normally required to get a degree and it would not involve classroom time at all.
 
In retrospect I had a very good high school education. Heavy emphasis on reading comprehension and writing.

In college I had two classes in political science and four in philosophy. That is where I learned to argue, debate, defend positions, and express ideas. It served me well as an engineer. I am sure there are exceptions, but I do not see how you can gain that without college experience. Malcolm X was an exception.

Competing with and interacting with others.

In the news locally Amazon is no longer requiting college degrees for many jobs. In the local news they no longer require a degree for coders, the kind of work does not require a CS degree.

I will say, the landscape for being hired as a developer with no CS background is going to shrink. One, more and more kids are majoring in CS. And if the choice comes down to it, likely they will go with the CS grad. Of course, work experience would trump anything.

But a lot of the programming jobs that don't require a good background in CS (i.e. algorithms, data structures, etc) is going to shrink because a lot of those jobs are being automated away (usually by people with CS degrees). Or, they can hire someone in Bangladesh or Argentina working remotely and pay them a fraction.

Of course, most interviews at good programming jobs already basically amount to what would be an exam on data structures and algorithms. So, you don't necessarily need the degree. You can pick up the books and get the background yourself. Nowadays, you can use MOOCs to and get these classes, introductory to advanced/graduate level, from places like Stanford and MIT without paying a cent.

When you hire that someone from Bangladesh you likely end up with no common sense involved in the implementation.

And I don't think data structures and algorithms are the important part of CS anymore. Most of the heavy lifting is handled by libraries, what's much more important is understanding how to translate requirements into bulletproof code.

I do agree you don't need the classes--anyone worth their salt as a programmer can pretty much teach themselves these days. You're going to have to learn tons of new stuff over your career anyway, if you can do that you can learn the initial stuff also.

We have specialized certificates in many IT things, I think we would be well served by universities offering certificates as well as degrees. Getting such a certificate would require passing a test on the material needed for the corresponding degree, but it would not include any of the extra classes normally required to get a degree and it would not involve classroom time at all.

There's also a difference between not requiring a degree, and not requiring competency. In theory you can learn how to program without a formal education, but it's extremely difficult to go beyond anything more than the very basics, for a variety of reasons. Couple that with self-learners trying to support themselves while learning, and it becomes that much more difficult. From Amazon's perspective it would be foolish to require a degree, because good candidates without a degree are out there, but it's incredibly difficult to learn to program well without guided learning.

People need to stop pretending that programming isn't an advanced skill that's not easily accessible to the masses.
 
There's also a difference between not requiring a degree, and not requiring competency. In theory you can learn how to program without a formal education, but it's extremely difficult to go beyond anything more than the very basics, for a variety of reasons. Couple that with self-learners trying to support themselves while learning, and it becomes that much more difficult. From Amazon's perspective it would be foolish to require a degree, because good candidates without a degree are out there, but it's incredibly difficult to learn to program well without guided learning.

People need to stop pretending that programming isn't an advanced skill that's not easily accessible to the masses.

I disagree. I do agree that the average person who simply jumped into code will not learn to do it well, but the theory books are out there. It's quite possible to learn how to do it well on your own. I certainly didn't learn much of anything about doing it well from college.
 
Everyone's talking about college degrees but the conversation is really about education, as some have said. Maybe we should be discussing whether a high school diploma is important anymore. In Musk's asinine reasoning, no educational degree or diploma is important. Where does that douchebag draw the line?
 
Everyone's talking about college degrees but the conversation is really about education, as some have said. Maybe we should be discussing whether a high school diploma is important anymore. In Musk's asinine reasoning, no educational degree or diploma is important. Where does that douchebag draw the line?

I would say that the degree or diploma isn't important other than they show the person with one had an opportunity to learn something. The real question is if they took advantage of the opportunity and learned or if they just spent four years partying. I think grade inflation has led to too many schools graduating too many incompetent students.
 
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